France Goes Mac Over The Cheese?

[Tsinni Dave]

Every day has been white nationalism day since the late 1400's if you are one of the few surviving indigenous people pretty much anywhere.

But we're way off topic.

 

[cytg111]

So you have a problem with blacks being proud of the color of their skin? Or Mexicans being proud from being from Mexico? Or Italians being proud of their lineage?

In principle. It of course depends to which level. You feel superior? Yea thats a problem. Look man I want you to eat and be happy… and if I have to use “my country”’s resources, my own, to achieve that. Of course I will.
Ill celebrate being Scandinavian today with easter, tomorrow ill go to a food festival down town and celebrate Eid, though Im not muslim. You know. We can celebrate of differences. Together.

 

[thilanliyan]

Whats wrong with nationalism ?

na·tion·al·ism
[ˈnaSH(ə)nəˌlizəm]

NOUN

1. identification with one's own nation and support for its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations:

The underlined part is the problem. I'm not an idealist...I know this is how most nations work, but this kind of thinking is why there's such a large wealth gap also...everyone's just out to get their own.

Besides that many people also drape themselves in the nationalism "flag" to be crappy to people who don't look like them.

 

[cytg111]

The underlined part is the problem. I'm not an idealist...I know this is how most nations work, but this kind of thinking is why there's such a large wealth gap also...everyone's just out to get their own.

Besides that many people also drape themselves in the nationalism "flag" to be crappy to people who don't look like them.

Here is the thing, when you think about what you are most proud of, being citizen of xyz, what is it? Boil it all the way down. Is it cuisine? Sauerkraut, brisket, Sushi? Some historic war?

If I boil it down, the thing that makes me proud has to do instances like charity, when we bucked up and helped someone else not for personal gain, when we came together to beat the odds (like covid), strangers standing shoulder to shoulder. And I quickly realize that these properties, qualities, has nothing to do with a flag, the people I share kinship with has nothing to do with borders, my people, hell most of us dont even speak a common language.

 

[Jaskalas]

Good. He won. But the most disturbing thing here is the Nazi got 43% of the vote.

42% of France voted for a fucking Nazi.

These totalitarian rectally sourced Putin puffing fascists wouldn't have even broken single digits a decade ago in a western nation.

Social media / online misinformation is quite successfully warping / poising the minds of just about everyone it reaches.
Your reality, calling them a Nazi, is not their reality. They voted for something quite different in their minds.

 

[Commodus]

a

Whats wrong with nationalism ?

na·tion·al·ism
[ˈnaSH(ə)nəˌlizəm]

NOUN

1. identification with one's own nation and support for its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations:

There's quite a lot wrong with nationalism. Particularly that "to the exclusion or detriment to the interests of other nations" part.

Wanting your country to fare well, and taking some pride in it, is fine. But nationalism usually involves promoting the myth of a national identity or culture... and in many cases, it's based on exclusion. Trump's nationalism (and that of numerous other Republicans, for that matter) is built around white straight Christians, and a narrow framing of their values at that; he doesn't care about the interests of other demographics, which serve as tokens at best and scapegoats at worst.

Also, that "other nations" bit? The simple reality is that countries don't exist in bubbles, and politics is not a zero-sum game where other nations must suffer for yours to thrive. International treaties and trade deals frequently help everyone. Some issues, such as climate change, pandemics and space exploration, are global concerns where cooperation is vital. Nationalism can actually worsen a country's standing by limiting growth and exacerbating crises.

Healthy patriotism means accepting that there's no one 'true' national culture or identity. Shared values, maybe, but even those should be broad (such as democracy and equal opportunity). It means accepting that you share a planet with other people, and that what you do doesn't exist in a vacuum. Crucially, you're also allowed to criticize your country — including by pointing out systemic problems that have existed for a long time.

And these reasons are why Le Pen is horrible. She's a textbook example of why nationalism is bad: she's a far-right nationalist who exploits islamophobia and overall xenophobia. Like her dad, she's trying to prop up a mythological France that never really existed, at the expense of every group that doesn't fit into this myth.

 

[blackangst1]

In principle. It of course depends to which level. You feel superior? Yea thats a problem. Look man I want you to eat and be happy… and if I have to use “my country”’s resources, my own, to achieve that. Of course I will.
Ill celebrate being Scandinavian today with easter, tomorrow ill go to a food festival down town and celebrate Eid, though Im not muslim. You know. We can celebrate of differences. Together.

Being a nationalist doest necessarily mean you think youre better.

 

[cytg111]

Being a nationalist doest necessarily mean you think youre better.

Doesnt it though?

 

[Amused]

Being a nationalist doest necessarily mean you think youre better.

Nationalist.
Racist
Classist.
Sexist.

What do these have in common?

All require a belief in your inherent superiority AND a belief in the inferiority of other nations/races/classes/sexes.

This is not a hard concept. Nationalism, just as the other isms is a form of bigotry.

And here is the rub, most forms of nationalism are combined with racism and/or a bigotry of culture or religion.

 

[blackangst1]

Doesnt it though?

So I can be proud to be an American, living in a free country, without implying I think Im better than (insert another country here)? Really? Im luckier, but not better.

 

[blackangst1]

Nationalist.
Racist
Classist.
Sexist.

What do these have in common?

All require a belief in your inherent superiority AND a belief in the inferiority of other nations/races/classes/sexes.

This is not a hard concept. Nationalism, just as the other isms is a form of bigotry.

And here is the rub, most forms of nationalism are combined with racism and/or a bigotry of culture or religion.

Youre so wrong.

Nationalist. I believe as an American Im the luckiest. Im proud to be so.
Racist I believe my race is superior to others.
Classist. I believe my class is better than others.
Sexist. I believe my sex is superior to the other.

You seriously dont see the difference?

 

[cytg111]

So I can be proud to be an American, living in a free country, without implying I think Im better than (insert another country here)? Really? Im luckier, but not better.

Proud to be lucky?

Nationalism
"identification with one's own nation and support for its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations."

.. like.. say, America First?

But at the end of the day, if we didnt believe democracy to be better than that of a Russian mafia state.. why would we not seek to ditch it in favor of a superior model?

 

[Amused]

Youre so wrong.

Nationalist. I believe as an American Im the luckiest. Im proud to be so.
Racist I believe my race is superior to others.
Classist. I believe my class is better than others.
Sexist. I believe my sex is superior to the other.

You seriously dont see the difference?

It's literally in the definition.

The one you posted.

 

[VashHT]

Proud to be lucky?

Nationalism
"identification with one's own nation and support for its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations."

.. like.. say, America First?

He's blatantly ignoring the second half of the definition, which describes the way nationalists shit on immigrants or anyone they don't think is a "real" american.

 

[dainthomas]

Nope. We in the USA by no choice of our own have rights just because of the patch of dirt we were born on to.

edit: which Im thankful for.

Read the definition after the comma.

Plus the fact that anyone who has ever identified themselves as nationalist has been trash, with trash ideas.

No part of this tiny pebble we're all stuck on is inherently better than any other. All people deserve to be treated decently.

 

[blackangst1]

Proud to be lucky?

"identification with one's own nation and support for its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations."

Yes. USA first.

Was Biden a nationalist when he said:

“I want to make sure we’re going to fight like hell by investing in America first,” said Biden. He ticked off energy, biotech, advanced materials and artificial intelligence as areas ripe for large-scale government investment in research. “I’m not going to enter any new trade agreement with anybody until we have made major investments here at home and in our workers” and in education, he said.

on the campaign trail?

 

[blackangst1]

He's blatantly ignoring the second half of the definition, which describes the way nationalists shit on immigrants or anyone they don't think is a "real" american.

Im with Biden on this. USA first, and “I’m not going to enter any new trade agreement with anybody until we have made major investments here at home and in our workers” and in education, he said.

 

[VashHT]

Im with Biden on this. USA first, and “I’m not going to enter any new trade agreement with anybody until we have made major investments here at home and in our workers” and in education, he said.

Good for you? Not sure what it has to do with what I said though, if that's all nationalists ever pushed for it wouldn't be considered anywhere near as bad.

 

[cytg111]

Yes. USA first.

Was Biden a nationalist when he said:

“I want to make sure we’re going to fight like hell by investing in America first,” said Biden. He ticked off energy, biotech, advanced materials and artificial intelligence as areas ripe for large-scale government investment in research. “I’m not going to enter any new trade agreement with anybody until we have made major investments here at home and in our workers” and in education, he said.

on the campaign trail?

"....especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations."

 

[blackangst1]

"....especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations."

OK. If it means we give less help to other countries in favor of the USA, Im good with that. Im with Biden on this.

 

[Indus]

Good. He won. But the most disturbing thing here is the Nazi got 43% of the vote.

42% of France voted for a fucking Nazi.

These totalitarian rectally sourced Putin puffing fascists wouldn't have even broken single digits a decade ago in a western nation.

Actually had to look up Le Pen's policies. Some of the domestic stuff is left of Macron. Basically a hodgepodge of hard right internationally and against immigrants but semi left domestically.

Makes it tempting to vote for her. Since she wants:
- More funding of free healthcare for all French
- Free job training, increasing funding for schools
- Lower retirement age
- Elimination of taxes

I think Putin's invasion of Ukraine wrecked her chances. Otherwise she could have won.. all she needed was a 4-5% swing and it'd be 51-49 in her favor.

And its basically Italy.. the European right wingers have learned people want free stuff domestically and they need to give them that.

 

[Commodus]

Yes. USA first.

Was Biden a nationalist when he said:

“I want to make sure we’re going to fight like hell by investing in America first,” said Biden. He ticked off energy, biotech, advanced materials and artificial intelligence as areas ripe for large-scale government investment in research. “I’m not going to enter any new trade agreement with anybody until we have made major investments here at home and in our workers” and in education, he said.

on the campaign trail?

Biden also rejoined the Paris Agreement and otherwise reestablished ties Trump broke during his presidency. There was a degree of nationalism in that campaign promise, and that was problematic (it is possible to invest in domestic industries while forging trade agreements), but it pales in comparison to Trump's nationalism.

You've so far tried to conflate basic patriotism with nationalism, and they're not the same thing. Being proud of the US and considering yourself lucky to live there? That's patriotism. Believing the US must always serve itself at the expense of others, and that only certain people can be considered 'real' Americans? That's nationalism. The difference is clear, and it's important.

 

[cytg111]

OK. If it means we give less help to other countries in favor of the USA, Im good with that. Im with Biden on this.

I know you’re not this god damn stupid, so why are you doing your best to pretend?

 

[blackangst1]

I know you’re not this god damn stupid, so why are you doing your best to pretend?

Im not. If I believe USA>all other countries is nationalism, I guess Im a nationalist. Its not a zero sum game. If the US chooses USA products or labor at the detriment of China or Mexico, Im all for it.

 

[cytg111]

Im not. If I believe USA>all other countries is nationalism, I guess Im a nationalist. Its not a zero sum game. If the US chooses USA products or labor at the detriment of China or Mexico, Im all for it.

And if you took an IQ test right now they'd take your voting rights away.