Fox TV's '24' Sanitizes Torture as "Necessary Evil"

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Dec 27, 2001
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He's got a point. All Fox shows have serious right wing propoganda.

The Simpsons...I mean, wtf, Homer and Marge haven't ONCE gone to an anti-war demonstration. They refer to the representation of FoxNews on that show as the "Evil" news channel, but that's just to get us to lower our finely-honed liberal defenses.

X-Files. That show made the Republican cover-up of the alien landing into a total joke! Everybody knws they used technology from the downed craft to enact voter fraud in both the 2000 and 2004 elections.
 

smc13

Senior member
Jan 5, 2005
606
0
0
Originally posted by: Jzero
I would like to take this moment to point out that "24" is actually just a television show that has jumped the shark.


Jumped the shark? This year's 24 is better then last year's.

Geez, how can you say that?!? This year's 24 has an improved right wing agenda featuring torture brain washing. I heard they are going to have a musical episode where Jack Baur is going to sing about the joys of torturing someone. I can't wait!

But seriously, I like this year's 24. As far as torture goes, Fox doesn't need to brain wash me. I think if you have a terrorist in custody and you only have a few hours to stop a terrorist attack, you get information from him using any means you can. If that means sending in Mata Hari to spleep with the guy in the hopes he talks during sex, great. If it means ripping his left nut off and threatening to feed it to him, great.
 

Jzero

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
18,834
1
0
Originally posted by: Votingisanillusion
It is about fiction by Fox.

You say that as though Rupert Murdoch was hand-writing the teleplays for every episode of 24.
 

GasX

Lifer
Feb 8, 2001
29,033
6
81
Originally posted by: smc13
Originally posted by: Jzero
I would like to take this moment to point out that "24" is actually just a television show that has jumped the shark.


Jumped the shark? This year's 24 is better then last year's. .
Jack Bauer's daughter joining CTU = jumping the shark
 

Jzero

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
18,834
1
0
Originally posted by: smc13
Jumped the shark? This year's 24 is better then last year's.

Last year's must have been awful, then. The writers are excellent when it comes to building suspense, but the technobabble just horrendous and not even remotely believable. They also overuse the deus ex machina.
 

Votingisanillusion

Senior member
Nov 6, 2004
626
0
0
Fortunately, not everyone is like you guys unable to see the link between 24 and Abu Ghraib.
But I understand you: it is very common to identify oneself with the hero of a fiction.
But you could try to distance yourself from Jack and his actions once in a while.
You can have an adult relationship with fiction and grow critical.
And learn about the relationship between the Pentagon of Hollywood.

You can read this for now:

Book Reviews
Ziauddin Sardar
Monday 7th March 2005
Torture and Truth: America, Abu Ghraib and the war on terror
Mark Danner Granta Books, 573pp, £16.99
ISBN 186207772X

The Torture Papers: the road to Abu Ghraib
Edited by Karen J Greenberg and Joshua L Dratel Cambridge University Press, 1,284pp, £27.50

The truth about the torture of detainees in Afghanistan and Iraq is simple. The Bush administration sanctioned it, the military deployed it, and the American public gave it a tacit nod of approval. Most of the people who were and are being tortured are innocent. And they are all Muslims.

The Torture Papers provides a blow-by-blow account of how the US adopted torture as a standard policy after the events of 11 September 2001. A few days after the attacks, the deputy assistant attorney general John Yoo wrote a memo in which he reasoned that because Afghanistan under the Taliban was a "failed state" and because al-Qaeda was not a state, the Geneva Conventions were applicable neither to the Taliban nor to Qaeda operatives, given that the conventions dealt only with "states" (Yoo presumably meant "successful" states).

A couple of months later, President George W Bush decided that the "quaint" conventions did not apply to prisoners at Guantanamo Bay. All of them, he declared, were "unlawful combatants". Numerous other memos, collected in The Torture Papers and Torture and Truth, show that the president thought his powers were over and above international law. He was not answerable even to Congress. As one memo insists, Congress "may no more regulate the president's ability to detain and interrogate enemy combatants, than it may regulate his ability to direct troop movements on the battlefield". In other words, the president of the United States is a law unto himself.

"Military necessity", argued Bush and his advisers, dictates that no method of interrogation be ruled out. It is legal and necessary for torture to be "part of the process". Only Colin Powell, the US secretary of state at that time, opposed these callous arguments.

The road from Afghanistan to Iraq's prisons was a slippery one. By the time the photographs of the atrocities at Abu Ghraib became public, torture had become routine. As Mark Danner points out: "What Americans did at Abu Ghraib was ultimately tied down to what they had done in Afghanistan, Guanta- namo and elsewhere." At Bagram and other US outposts in Afghanistan, suspects were habitually and systematically tortured in a very specific way. Prisoners were hooded and stripped naked; handcuffed with flexi-cuffs; forced to squat or stand for hours; punched, kicked and beaten with hard objects; deprived of sleep; paraded naked and made to simulate sexual acts; tied to a leash and set upon by dogs; and had sticks and other objects rammed up their rectums.

The institutionalisation of torture by US forces should not surprise us - the US military proved what it is capable of in Vietnam and Cambodia. Recruits are trained to treat the enemy with contempt, to see him as less than human. Tough guys have got to do what years of cultural indoctrination have taught them - bend the enemy combatant to their will, if necessary by torture. This is the theme of countless "hard man" films, from classic westerns to Heartbreak Ridge and Missing in Action. In such films, the heroes are licensed to use ruthless violence and brutality to make the land safe for their own.

What is surprising is the normalisation of torture. It has become democratised, something that everyone should participate in, either as perpetrators or observers. Even the language used to describe torture has been cleansed of blood. Bush's advisers, firing off memo after memo, talk about "counter-resistance strategies"; these may be "cruel, inhuman and degrading", but they are "not torture". The Red Cross found that the Abu Ghraib prisoners had not been tortured but had simply suffered "ill-treatment". Sleep deprivation is "adjusting the sleeping times". Setting dogs on the detainees is "forced grooming". Shoving a pole up a victim's rectum is "butt stroking". Keeping prisoners in solitary confinement is "segregation". And the policy to send suspects to torture chambers located in various parts of Afghanistan, Iraq and Cuba is "rendition".

The new ingredient in this "rendition" is pictures. Today's torturers enjoy what they do, so they keep a record. They take photographs - not just a few, but hundreds. Danner reproduces the famous 32 pictures (out of more than 200) of the Abu Ghraib tortures, reduced and neatly framed to fit several to a page. These include the pictures of Private Lynndie England: cigarette in mouth, pointing gleefully at a prisoner's genitals; leading a naked man on a leash; smiling broadly and giving the thumbs-up while leaning on a man beaten to a pulp.



To all intents and purposes, these are holiday snaps. The perpetrators adopt familiar poses - smiling, laughing, pointing to the scenery, flirting with the camera. Like most holiday shots, they are taken in full view of others. The background activity in some indicates that the goings-on in the foreground are nothing out of the ordinary. When sent home, these photographs will join others from other holidays - all with the same smiling faces, announcing "I was there".

That is why Private England genuinely thought that "it was just fun, harmless fun". "Stupid, kid things - pranks," her mother told a reporter from the Baltimore Sun. Others agreed. "No different than what happens at the Skull and Bones initiation," Rush Limbaugh told listeners to his radio show.

That is precisely the point. There is a seamless connection between what happens in American society, the way society is represented by Hollywood, and the torture meted out by US soldiers abroad. In movies, torture is an everyday activity. In Man on Fire, the Denzel Washington character casually tortures a gangster, chopping off his fingers and then taping a bomb to his posterior. Jack Bauer, the counter-terrorist agent in the TV series 24, tortures indiscriminately, not caring whether his victims are suspected terrorists, colleagues or teenaged girls. The relationship between American society and Hollywood is like a feedback loop. The extremity of one reinforces the other.

This is why the soldiers at Abu Ghraib were not content simply to take photographs to send to the folks back home, but found it necessary to stage their atrocities as special events for the camera. Hence the piles of naked bodies shaped as human pyramids (reminiscent of a horror film), the man standing on a box with arms spread, wires attached to his limbs and genitals and wearing a hood (reminding us of the Ku Klux Klan), and the dead man wrapped in a plastic sheet (a scene straight from CSI: crime scene investigation). The pictures prove how proud the soldiers are of their directorial skills. They act like characters in a Hollywood blockbuster.

The nudity that is so conspicuous in these scenes has a special purpose. The enemy is not just any old inhuman dirt; it is a specific kind of beloved patriot. The "towel heads" and "camel jockeys", as Muslims are referred to by the American military, have a loathing of nudity and public sex. Orientalist scholars such as Bernard Lewis and Daniel Pipes have been telling Americans for decades that backward Muslims do not appreciate sexual games and fun. Hence the focus on explicitness in the photos: men forced to perform anal sex; men forced to fellate other men; men humiliated by female soldiers.

The tortures perpetrated in Afghanistan, Cuba and Iraq are not the work of "a few bad apples". The documents collected in these two volumes show clearly that everyone, from President Bush down to the lowliest soldier, understood what was required, and carried out his or her mission with due diligence.

Soldiers and politicians are not the only ones responsible for the normalisation of torture, however. As Karen Greenberg suggests, one cannot exonerate the American people. Almost every segment of society has been involved, one way or another, in sanctioning torture: the "highly educated" writers of the memos that argued for torture; the military that denied its use; the intelligence services that suppressed the evidence; the lawyers who (mis)interpreted the law in "the cause of evil"; the press, which underplayed the use of coercive interrogative techniques; the film and television industry that represents torture as necessary and routine; and the public that refused to believe the truth. Indeed, by electing Bush for a second term, the American people have condoned torture, the indefinite confinement of suspects, and an indefinite war of terror.

No extenuating circumstances can be pleaded on behalf of the great American public. It knew the truth; and in effect it supported and sanctioned policies that made torture normal, routine and democratic. Instead of looking for evil all over the world, perhaps Americans should look at themselves.

Ziauddin Sardar's American Dream, Global Nightmare, co-authored with Merryl Wyn Davies (Icon, £7.99), is also available as a Naxos audio book (£16.99)
This article first appeared in the New Statesman. For the latest in current and cultural affairs subscribe to the New Statesman print edition.

http://www.newstatesman.com/200503070041
 

purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
53,655
6,532
126
Originally posted by: Jzero
Originally posted by: smc13
Jumped the shark? This year's 24 is better then last year's.

Last year's must have been awful, then. The writers are excellent when it comes to building suspense, but the technobabble just horrendous and not even remotely believable. They also overuse the deus ex machina.

yea it really bothers everyone, it shows by how poorly the show is doing ... :roll:

i'm glad that i'm not such a geek that little things like that bother me.
 

MrChad

Lifer
Aug 22, 2001
13,507
3
81
Originally posted by: purbeast0
Originally posted by: Jzero
Originally posted by: smc13
Jumped the shark? This year's 24 is better then last year's.

Last year's must have been awful, then. The writers are excellent when it comes to building suspense, but the technobabble just horrendous and not even remotely believable. They also overuse the deus ex machina.

yea it really bothers everyone, it shows by how poorly the show is doing ... :roll:

i'm glad that i'm not such a geek that little things like that bother me.

How about the awful dialogue and ridiculous plot lines? This year is the worst season by far.
 

DeMeo

Senior member
Oct 23, 2003
781
0
0
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: jalaram
Originally posted by: Votingisanillusion
The uncritical masses. As if Fox did not have an agenda.
It is not about fiction. It is about fiction by Fox.

Does NBC have an agenda with The West Wing? How about Law and Order? How about L&O: SVU?

If you want to talk politics, please take it to P&N.
ABC's Boston Legal was going to have a jab at FOX News but it was pulled from the script.

Bston legal did the show. They did not actually say "FOX" though, but the case they were doing was about FOX news. They reffered to things such as "the fair and balanced" and numerous other similar comments. It was obvious they were talking about Fox.
The producer of Boston Legal also produces Boston Public which is on Fox. The Boston Legal case involved a law suit against the high school principal (same guy as in boston public?) for putting devices on all of the school's television sets to block out the Foxnews station. There were jabs made at FOX, but there were also rebuttals to them and in the end the principal was forced to remove the blocking devices. I think ABC felt that Boston Legal was being used as an advertisemtne for FOX, hence they didn't want the show done. I guess they compromised by not actually saying "FOX".

This has nothing to do with the topic, but hey, this is ATOT.
Torture on!
 

Attrox

Golden Member
Aug 24, 2004
1,120
0
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Kinda remind me of story from a police officer in 1 of third world country. Sometime they torture murderer/robber by hitting their p3n1s til they confess.
 

Votingisanillusion

Senior member
Nov 6, 2004
626
0
0
Others have grown critical of 24 this year:

http://www.davids-world.com/archives/2005/01/jacks_back_with.html

<< Jack's Back, with a New Web of Fear.

Jack Bauer is back. The premiere of the new '24' season was aired last weekend, I've seen the first four hours by now. Does the show live up to my high expectations?

For those who don't know: 24 is almost a real-time TV show: action is shown as it happens, no flashbacks, no jumps in time. 24 episodes per season: the longest day in the life of Jack Bauer, who used to be an agent hunting down terrorists and saving little blond girls' lives. He's a cowboy that does things his own way, and that's what we love him for. The show is full of action. And it's full of violence. 24 is one of the best-designed action TV series in a long time.

So how is 24/2005? The new story is the old story. Some evil terrorists plan an evil attack on the United States - in this case, some Secretary of Defense, who is to be tried by the evil terrorists for crimes against humanity in front of cameras. Of course, the evil terrorists come from a not-so-evil country (Turkey, but it doesn't matter, as long as they have an Eastern accent). The NY Times has the scoop. (More links)

What strikes me is the political shift that the series has seen. A shift to the right, a move that acknowledges America's conservatives. "Don't give me your sixth grade Michael Moore logic", the Secretary of Defense says, because we're the good ones, not you. He is talking to is son, who happens to be one of the guys that stage protests to save the environment. But in 24, Greenpeace activists are somehow linked to terrorism. This 24 season, the democrat, black and somewhat Kerry-esque US president David Palmer has been replaced by an old, Bushy guy.

Again and again, the agents of the Counter Terrorist Unit CTU use "physical interrogation"
to get suspects to talk. What that means? Torture.

In 24, time is of the essence, and torturing suspects is a matter of life and death for millions
of innocent people. Inquiries, carried out by the annoying 'division', only get in the way of good agents like Jack.

24, however, is hitting close to home. What's happening in real life
obviously couldn't be further away from the time pressure of 24. American and
British soldiers have tortured Iraqis - the photos were in all papers. Thousands of suspects are still detained, without lawyers and without trials. The CIA seems to have been abducting suspects from within foreign countries (like this German).

Do the makers of 24 inadvertently legitimize torture in counter-terrorism investigations?

What's painfully obvious is that 24, conceived long before the 9/11 attacks, now nurtures a diffuse sense of fear among its viewers, keeping the belief in a good government alive and legitimizing violations of human rights.

The message: Everything is okay - in Guantanamo Bay. >>
 

jalaram

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
12,920
2
81
Fortunately, not everyone is like you guys unable to see the link between 24 and Abu Ghraib.

Fortunately, not everyone is like you unable to realize that there is a forum called P&N.

Now that you've been told that a few times, take it there.

 

GasX

Lifer
Feb 8, 2001
29,033
6
81
Your long posts are the diatribes of the worst kind of liberal - those with a self-perception of moral superiority, that live in the same world as us and are unaffected by the "influences" that they claim are ruining everyone els, and feel it is their duty to protect us from them...
 

bandana163

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2003
4,170
0
0
Fascist series?
Right-wing propaganda in 24?

Dear OP, go back to the PlaypeN please.
Don't try to protect me from being manipulated by telling me what I should think. :confused:
 

Jzero

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
18,834
1
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Originally posted by: purbeast0
yea it really bothers everyone, it shows by how poorly the show is doing ... :roll:
We'll see how many more seasons it lives. If they don't shape up, I would bet that next season will show a significant decrease in viewership, and season 6 will be the swan song.

i'm glad that i'm not such a geek that little things like that bother me.

Little things? One of the fundamental plot devices has been this mystical "override device" which allows someone to control every nuclear power plant in the US right through the Internet. I just can't buy that even if a group managed to infiltrate a defense contractor widely enough to make it so the device could also be used to intiate a meltdown, that all of the nations' nuclear reactors are plugged right into the Internet just waiting for the signal.

Overuse of deus ex machina? When Jack and Curtis finally catch up with Habib, instead of taking the magic override device with him, or better - destroying it, he conveniently leaves it at the desk.

Oh, and while we're on the subject of torture, they'll tie down, drug and beat a terrorist suspect....but they won't tie down and drug Maya Driscoll?

It's just ludicrous, and it's awful when I'm caught up in a very compelling and suspenseful plot and then I involuntarily groan out loud because a charging EMP bomb is blocking all electronic communications.....oh except the bad guys' walkie talkies. :roll:

I expect technobabble and tachyon field emissions from episodic sci-fi like Star Trek or Battlestar Galactica. But a "real-world" fiction like 24 should be reasonably realistic.
 

Pliablemoose

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
25,195
0
56
Originally posted by: Mwilding
Your long posts are the diatribes of the worst kind of liberal - those with a self-perception of moral superiority, that live in the same world as us and are unaffected by the "influences" that they claim are ruining everyone els, and feel it is their duty to protect us from them...


The post & run crap he's doing in OT isn'tallowed in P&N any longer.:disgust:
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,587
10,225
126
Originally posted by: Votingisanillusion
Before that Paul and others, after having been subjected to very painful torture, uncritically accept to go back to work with their torturers. Again, gross psychological manipulation of the masses of fans of 24. I do not feel like a fan anymore.
Frankly, I am very disappointed by this fourth season. It has turned into blatant propanganda for the Pentagon and the CIA's criminal conduct in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Guantanamo, and at home thanks to the fascist Patriot Act.
24 is now a fascist series.
Just like FoxNews is a fascist channel. No surprise.
And you think that this is a new thing, that media companies didn't already act as subtle propeganda-outlets for the gov't, for years? Here, have a cluebat. Use it to smash that thing that you call a "TV set". Here's to you eventually regaining your sanity and your mind, after destroying the mind-control box in your living room.
 

Votingisanillusion

Senior member
Nov 6, 2004
626
0
0
Originally posted by: Mwilding
Your long posts are the diatribes of the worst kind of liberal - those with a self-perception of moral superiority, that live in the same world as us and are unaffected by the "influences" that they claim are ruining everyone els, and feel it is their duty to protect us from them...

At the start of my military service, I passed an IQ test; later officers told me about it: they had never seen such a high score.
I am superior.
 

Attrox

Golden Member
Aug 24, 2004
1,120
0
0
First of all, it's a freakin tv show if you don't like it don't watch it.
Also what do you think should be done if you have "24" kind of crisis? Let the terrorist lawyered up and go to trial in the hope that they will make some sort of deal to reveal the information? Keep in mind that THEY ARE WILLING TO DIE for their cause, how else are you going to acquire information from them asap?
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
I happen to like a good torture scene in 24, so I've no problem with this. None of us here would be opposed to torture in all cases, and if you say you are, you're lying. I do not condone it, but there are cases when it would be needed.

I can't read the rest of this thread, because I'm not watching S4 until it hits dvd, and I want no spoilers.
 

Jzero

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
18,834
1
0
Originally posted by: Votingisanillusion
Originally posted by: Mwilding
Your long posts are the diatribes of the worst kind of liberal - those with a self-perception of moral superiority, that live in the same world as us and are unaffected by the "influences" that they claim are ruining everyone els, and feel it is their duty to protect us from them...

At the start of my military service, I passed an IQ test; later officers told me about it: they had never seen such a high score.
I am superior.

Yeah, we heard all about the Swedish Navy SEALs before from SnapIT. Spare us, please.
 

mwtgg

Lifer
Dec 6, 2001
10,491
0
0
Originally posted by: frankie38
Please remember...24 is fiction.

This is a classic question:

Does the end justify the means? (From my Philosphy class)

Depends if the means are good. ;)
 

GasX

Lifer
Feb 8, 2001
29,033
6
81
Originally posted by: Votingisanillusion
Originally posted by: Mwilding
Your long posts are the diatribes of the worst kind of liberal - those with a self-perception of moral superiority, that live in the same world as us and are unaffected by the "influences" that they claim are ruining everyone els, and feel it is their duty to protect us from them...

At the start of my military service, I passed an IQ test; later officers told me about it: they had never seen such a high score.
I am superior.

Then why are you cutting and pasting other people's rhetoric instead of your own well thought out and supported writing?
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
Originally posted by: Votingisanillusion
Originally posted by: Mwilding
Your long posts are the diatribes of the worst kind of liberal - those with a self-perception of moral superiority, that live in the same world as us and are unaffected by the "influences" that they claim are ruining everyone els, and feel it is their duty to protect us from them...
At the start of my military service, I passed an IQ test; later officers told me about it: they had never seen such a high score.
I am superior.
You, military service? Please, kid - you're almost certainly a 16 year old who sits at his computer and jerks off to the idea of ragin' against the man. These last two elections were heaven-sent for you - now your feeble mind has the opportunity to focus on a few entities for your pathetic moral outrage.

If your imaginary military 'officers' who gave you your imaginary high IQ score and complimented you on your sheer intellectual might, lol...consider this your imaginary pat on the back. YOU GO GIRL!