Fox News Opinion Piece supporting Gay Marriage on Constitutional Grounds

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,171
18,807
146
Saw this on Fox News Opinion page.

I hope this is not a fluke and is the way many Republicans start to lean. Each day I see more examples of this. It is refreshing to see many on the right lean back towards classical liberal (libertarian) ideals of individual liberty.

Those here who know me know I am a classical liberal who is socially liberal and fiscally conservative. I have always expressed the opinion that the government has no right telling any consenting adults what they can, and cannot do with each other.

Why I’m Joining the Fight for Marriage Equality
By Margaret Hoover
- FOXNews.com

If you are uncomfortable with gay marriage, I encourage you to pay attention to the landmark civil rights trial which began this week in California.

This week a landmark civil rights court case began in California. The federal trial Perry v. Schwarzenegger challenges the constitutionality of California’s Proposition 8 ban on gay marriage. Two couples argue that they have a constitutional right to marry, and that California’s law denies them due process and equal protection under the 14th Amendment, relegating them second-class citizens.

You may think, “San Francisco liberals at it again! Hijacking the courts, inventing new constitutional rights!” Stop there. The lead counsel in the case is George W. Bush’s Solicitor General, who successfully argued Bush v. Gore before the Supreme Court in one of his fifty-five performances before the nation’s highest judicial body. He is Theodore “Ted” Olsen, a founder of the Federalist Society, constitutional law expert, and one of the most respected conservatives in America.

Mr. Olsen thinks constitutionally guaranteed rights ought to transcend left vs. right, Democrat vs. Republican divides (he even recruited legal opponent David Boies as co-counsel). I agree with him. And as a proud Republican representing a younger generation of conservatives that cherish individual freedom, I am honored to join the American Equal Right’s Foundation’s Advisory Board.

I encourage everyone, but especially Republicans, to consider Mr. Olsen’s arguments on the merits, both in his opening statement and throughout the trial’s ensuing three weeks. The plaintiff’s counsel seeks to convince Judge Vaughn R. Walker that the Supreme Court has already decided in Loving v. Virginia, Turner v. Safely, and in Lawrence v. Texas among others, that the right to marry is a fundamental right currently denied to an entire class of American citizens. This is unconstitutional.

We Republicans have often found ourselves on the wrong side of civil rights struggles since the 1960s, but there was a reason that Martin Luther King, Jr.'s father is said to have supported Republicans.

Republicans were historically the party ever-expanding freedom to disenfranchised minorities, from newly liberated slaves to giving women the right to vote. Susan B. Anthony was a Republican. By supporting the AFER trial we have an opportunity to establish our historic credibility on civil rights issues once again. But we should support marriage equality because it is the right thing to do.

Gays and lesbians are our friends, neighbors, doctors, colleagues, sisters and brothers. Does it sit well with you that because of their sexual orientation, a factor outside one’s control, that they should have less rights and protections in the eyes of the law? While increasing acceptance of gays marks my generational experience—Ellen DeGeneres is welcomed into the living rooms of millions of Americans daily, an impossibility in even my childhood— many who are older than me fear that if gays and lesbians can marry, what’s next? They worry that homosexual marriage degrades the integrity of heterosexual marriage. They fear that their children might be exposed to alternative lifestyles that will impact them negatively, or argue that the purpose of marriage is procreation. If you are uncomfortable with gay marriage, I encourage you to pay attention to this trial, the plaintiffs, the defense and the spectrum of experts, historians, psychologists, economists, political scientists, who will testify as to the effects and detriment of Proposition 8. In the words of NAACP chairman Julian Bond, “The humanity of all Americans is diminished when any group is denied rights granted to others.”

Some Republicans support gay rights, but prefer progress through legislative action or majority rule at the ballot box, rather than judicial action. But what if a democratic election imposes mandates that violate a citizen’s constitutional freedom? In the event that majority rule insufficiently protects individual liberty, our system of checks and balances puts forth that it is the role of the courts, to guarantee and protect the rights to individual Americans.

That’s why the Supreme Court, in 1967 Loving v. Virginia, legalized interracial marriage –six years after our current president was born to an interracial couple. At that time 73% of the population opposed “miscegenation.” How long would it have taken to change popular opinion, for the minority to democratically win their constitutional rights? As Martin Luther King, Jr. famously asserted, “Justice delayed is justice denied.”

For those of you who would label me a "RINO" (Republican In Name Only) for taking this stand, I direct you to Vice President Cheney, whose conservative credentials are impeccable, and who answered a question on the topic before the National Press Club audience on June 1, 2009 by saying simply, “…freedom means freedom for everyone.”

Please visit Facebook page Republicans for Marriage Equality and American Equal Rights Foundation to follow the details of the trial.

Margaret Hoover is a conservative commentator and Fox News contributor.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/01/15/margaret-hoover-gay-marriage-san-francisco-ted-olsen/
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,547
9,779
136
You can deny them marriage while keeping government’s laws treating people equally. All you do is simply rename the legal agreement between two people. That’s it.
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
33,160
12,607
136
You can deny them marriage while keeping government’s laws treating people equally. All you do is simply rename the legal agreement between two people. That’s it.

what does it matter if a gay marriage is still called marriage? why should it be changed to something else?
 

brblx

Diamond Member
Mar 23, 2009
5,499
2
0
because marriage has become twisted into a religious ritual, and that's the entire root of the problem- silly fundies think the state acknowledging a union between two people somehow has something to do with their backwater church.
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
30,991
46,553
136
Question is now, will this somehow herald News Corp and it's viewer base suddenly getting a little more realistic? Or will this lady get dumped and buried like the small number of commentators who have previously dared to not follow talking point orders?

because marriage has become twisted into a religious ritual, and that's the entire root of the problem- silly fundies think the state acknowledging a union between two people somehow has something to do with their backwater church.

Well, traditionally it was a religious ritual, thing is this crowd has itself fooled over this country being a secular nation. It's a problem for them that the ones their religion supposedly speaks out against are getting equal consideration from the government, when this government is really, in their minds, just an extension of their own religious tradition.

I say we revoke tax exempt status for churches until they require all of their "flock" to complete and pass an American History 101 class. Dispelling christian revisionism is the first step in getting somewhere on this issue. ;)
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Making the same arguments I have. Strange bedfellows. This is what it sounds like when an *unbigoted* conseervative discusses the issue. Barry Goldwater was for ending discrimination, too.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,397
8,563
126
because marriage has become twisted into a religious ritual, and that's the entire root of the problem- silly fundies think the state acknowledging a union between two people somehow has something to do with their backwater church.

you are aware that in the common law legal tradition that we are part of, the courts of law asked the canon courts if two people were married or not, aren't you? (until henry viii wanted to get divorced and also needed money so he told everyone in england they had to worship him)
 
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Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
You can deny them marriage while keeping government’s laws treating people equally. All you do is simply rename the legal agreement between two people. That’s it.

That only works if you also rename the legal agreement between straight couples.

And the author of this piece is absolutely right. Equal protection prohibits only granting government recognition to relationships of your preferred orientation, just as much as it prohibits banning interracial marriage.

And from a more practical standpoint, the author hits the nail on the head with Republicans and civil rights. Republicans talk a good game, but the fact is that "individual rights" are mostly only supported by conservatives when it's a convenient argument for things they would have already supported. So the 2nd amendment is sacred beyond reproach, but gay people can sit down and shut up. That doesn't sit well with a lot of people who might be Republican if the party actually supported individual liberties.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,379
126
Marriage actually pre-dates monotheism, and has been a part of virtually all cultures throughout history.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Great write up! I agree with the author 100%, and I hope to see the entire issue resolved sooner, rather than later.
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
136
The whole idea that we should use different terminology than "marriage" for homosexuals confers a indirect label of inferiority upon a group of people that did nothing to deserve it except in the eyes of people with religious or moral objections to gay lifestyles. This is, of course, unconstitutional to legislate, in this case. And it will be ruled upon as such soon enough.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,153
0
0
I keep hearing from the small cadre of repubs that support gay marriage that many republican politicians who openly oppose it are privately more tolerant of it. It's another example that underlines what we all know about our political system - it doesn't matter what you believe in. It's only what you think will get you votes, even if it means playing to populist bigotry that runs against your personal values.

- wolf
 

Mr. Lennon

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2004
3,492
1
81
Wow, most of the comments on the article page are just absolutely ridiculous. I guess I shouldn't be surprised considering Fox's fan base.

"Ok. Let's try this again...the website refreshed while I was typing so I apologize for a double post if it appears...The author needs to check her sources as she comments that a person's sexual orientation, is a factor outside one’s control. That's old science. It has been disproven by newer and more precise studies. Also, I agree with another poster who asked if we would be opening the door to pedophiles wanting to marry children if we allow gay marriage. Then what about those who practice beastiality. We should just get back to the way thing were intended in this country. And before someone jumps up and says I want to see slavery back...if you read about some of the founding fathers, they were against if from the beginning. Check out John Adams if you don't believe me. We started as a God-fearing nation but it was a nation of imperfect people. Now we look at us as nation of perfect people (in the minds of some), who scoff at what they see as an imperfect god. Note the small "g". The God of the U.S.A., at it's founding was and is the only good and perfect God (capital G)"

"The Bible is against gay marriage. It's also AGAINST INTERACCIAL MARRIAGE. The bible explicitly condemns the mixing of races!!! All of my god abidding brothers and sistersm, like me, we must put a stop to interracial marriages. It is equally offensive to g-d. Who is with me???"

"You are a RINO, Ms. Hoover. I suppose next you will be arguing the rights of pedophiles marrying children or the next perverted minority created by what they do or how they behave in life rather than a characteristic from birth. I pity you."


The Republican party needs to separate themselves from this fringe group of loonies. They need to get out of the business of catering to the religious all together. If the Republicans wish to continue touting themselves as firm believers of the constitution and individual freedom, they must start changing their stance on social issues starting with gay marriage.

Fox did the right thing by allowing this article to be posted despite their viewers opposition to it. I can only hope this is a sign for things to come...I won't hold my breath.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
The whole idea that we should use different terminology than "marriage" for homosexuals confers a indirect label of inferiority upon a group of people that did nothing to deserve it except in the eyes of people with religious or moral objections to gay lifestyles. This is, of course, unconstitutional to legislate, in this case. And it will be ruled upon as such soon enough.

why a "different" terminology has to mean inferiority? what happens to stating the obvious that homosexual union is different biologically and same sex couples will never be able produce children because of that biological limitation. Note I never said that's bad, it's just different.

Are we so freaking politically correct that telling as it is that someone is different (again not inferior) is not acceptable anymore?
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
why a "different" terminology has to mean inferiority? what happens to stating the obvious that homosexual union is different biologically and same sex couples will never be able produce children because of that biological limitation. Note I never said that's bad, it's just different.

Are we so freaking politically correct that telling as it is that someone is different (again not inferior) is not acceptable anymore?

Are you that naive? Or are you disengenuous?

Saying they are different is no problem. Heterosexual, homosexual.

Denying the word marriage to gays is not ok. The only reason to do it is to say that 'marriage' is something special gays can't have. THat's second-claaa citizen, it's discrimiation.

Remmber 'separate but equal'? You might argue that was an innocent unbigoted policy. It wasn't.

The only reason to deny them the word is the reason not to - it's a way treat them as inferior.
 

seemingly random

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2007
5,277
0
0
Republicans are creating work for themselves if they let go of this issue. They'll have to come up with a new wedge issue to create strife.
 

dguy6789

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2002
8,558
3
76
Are you that naive? Or are you disengenuous?

Saying they are different is no problem. Heterosexual, homosexual.

Denying the word marriage to gays is not ok. The only reason to do it is to say that 'marriage' is something special gays can't have. THat's second-claaa citizen, it's discrimiation.

Remmber 'separate but equal'? You might argue that was an innocent unbigoted policy. It wasn't.

The only reason to deny them the word is the reason not to - it's a way treat them as inferior.

This.
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
I continue to hold firm on my position. The government has no place in marriage, be it same sex or the traditional male/female. That said since we dont live in a perfect world where that is the case.....

I dont give a good goddamn either way if gays can get legally married or not. I mean really....Thats the most important shit we have to worry about right now? But since it seems to be....Go gays go.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
why a "different" terminology has to mean inferiority? what happens to stating the obvious that homosexual union is different biologically and same sex couples will never be able produce children because of that biological limitation. Note I never said that's bad, it's just different.

Are we so freaking politically correct that telling as it is that someone is different (again not inferior) is not acceptable anymore?

Ignoring the obvious (and proven) legal and practical problems with "separate but equal", the argument in favor of giving gay couples a different (but equal) word is a red herring anyways.

While it's effective in changing the argument to a discussion about the definition of marriage instead of equal rights for gay people, the fact is that many, if not most, people who oppose gay "marriage" also oppose ANY classification that gives gay couples marriage-like rights. How do I know? Well many of the states that enacted gay marriage bans also explicitly ban any kind of "gay marriage" like thing, including civil unions. People who support that kind of ban still seem to just argue about "protecting marriage" though, probably because it sounds better than admitting to legislative gay bashing.

Could there be folks who really DO support civil unions but not marriage for gay couples? Probably...but the argument really seems mostly about finding a lazy way out of the argument about gay rights.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
52,124
45,152
136
Obviously some people in the party want to unchain it from the cannonball of the religious ultraconservatives who threaten to totally drown it in the wake of one of the most unpopular presidents in recent history.
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
33,160
12,607
136
Wow, most of the comments on the article page are just absolutely ridiculous. I guess I shouldn't be surprised considering Fox's fan base.

"Ok. Let's try this again...the website refreshed while I was typing so I apologize for a double post if it appears...The author needs to check her sources as she comments that a person's sexual orientation, is a factor outside one’s control. That's old science. It has been disproven by newer and more precise studies. Also, I agree with another poster who asked if we would be opening the door to pedophiles wanting to marry children if we allow gay marriage. Then what about those who practice beastiality. We should just get back to the way thing were intended in this country. And before someone jumps up and says I want to see slavery back...if you read about some of the founding fathers, they were against if from the beginning. Check out John Adams if you don't believe me. We started as a God-fearing nation but it was a nation of imperfect people. Now we look at us as nation of perfect people (in the minds of some), who scoff at what they see as an imperfect god. Note the small "g". The God of the U.S.A., at it's founding was and is the only good and perfect God (capital G)"

"The Bible is against gay marriage. It's also AGAINST INTERACCIAL MARRIAGE. The bible explicitly condemns the mixing of races!!! All of my god abidding brothers and sistersm, like me, we must put a stop to interracial marriages. It is equally offensive to g-d. Who is with me???"

"You are a RINO, Ms. Hoover. I suppose next you will be arguing the rights of pedophiles marrying children or the next perverted minority created by what they do or how they behave in life rather than a characteristic from birth. I pity you."


The Republican party needs to separate themselves from this fringe group of loonies. They need to get out of the business of catering to the religious all together. If the Republicans wish to continue touting themselves as firm believers of the constitution and individual freedom, they must start changing their stance on social issues starting with gay marriage.

Fox did the right thing by allowing this article to be posted despite their viewers opposition to it. I can only hope this is a sign for things to come...I won't hold my breath.

how do these people jump from homosexual marriages to pedophelia?

:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:
 

dguy6789

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2002
8,558
3
76
how do these people jump from homosexual marriages to pedophelia?

:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

There are people in this world that believe that homosexuality is wrong or disgusting or sick. They are the same kind of people(or are the same people) that thought inter-racial marriage and rights for women was wrong or disgusting or sick. Homophobic(anyone who opposes gay marriage) people need to be humiliated and ridiculed just as much as someone who claims women and blacks(or any race) should be servants to white men(or any race). To answer your question: Stupid people are stupid, there is nothing else to it.
 
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