Forgot work! Welfare pays much better.

[trenchfoot]

The rich are getting ever richer in good times and even richer still in bad times. Meaning, the only folks who drop ever lower on the economic ladder during the bad times are the middle class and the poor.

The game is rigged in favor of the rich and they can't lose. They are the "house" and the rest of us are the duped "players" playing by their rules and getting sucked dry from it.

Welcome to America, where it's been decided that to play and win on the world stage the middle class must cease to exist and be driven into the ranks of the poor so that the rich can be all that they can be.

 

[child of wonder]

And, uhh, so what?

Sell everything you own before you'll accept assistance?

I think that's a nice way of digging yourself into a deeper hole. Just think where we could all be if everybody had done that in 2009.

Well, maybe you think 1931 all over again would be a great idea.

No, I'm saying one should sell extravagances, like Coach purses, top of the line cell phones, or jewelry to stay afloat before asking for assistance. I had a Playstation 2 when my wife and I were poor and I sold it and all the games to pay rent one month. Sold my entire DVD collection, too. It's called making sacrifices and accepting handouts while trying to maintain appearances with designed purses and the newest cell phone shows a person wasn't willing to part with material goods before using government assistance as a last resort.

For everybody like the woman you mention there are a lot more who have kids to feed & shitty jobs to do it. They have shitty jobs because that's what the economy provides, at least for now. Those kids are America's future, too.

You're right. There are a lot of good people on food stamps who work hard but, through no fault of their own, they aren't able to make ends meet. I have no issue helping those people and I'm glad I live in a society where a safety net like that is available.

Unfortunately, far too many also take advantage of the system and it's not hard to do. It needs reform.

Yeh, yeh, yeh- we all like to think we're special, that we got where we are through some combination of circumstances that didn't involve luck at all. Lots of bad luck going around, lots of people beat down by circumstances beyond their control. Food assistance turns that luck around, if only a little bit.

My now wife was a 17 year old high school senior when we met and I was a 22 year old college dropout. We made the mistake of not using protection and she quickly became pregnant. We decided I had to go back to college and get a 2 year degree so we could support our new family. We were on WIC and Medicaid as my wife worked full time as a bank teller (the best job she could get as a freshly graduated 18 year old) while I went to school full time and worked part time. Thanks to the assistance we received and a lot of luck and hard work, we're in a far, far better place than we were back then. You and every other taxpayer made an investment in us and it's paid huge dividends.

When I see others using assistance but not doing whatever it takes to get by or abusing that assistance it really upsets me. Government assistance should be a hand up, not a hand out or way of life. Many relatives on both sides of my family abuse the system and it needs reform badly.

 

[Veliko]

No, I'm saying one should sell extravagances, like Coach purses, top of the line cell phones, or jewelry to stay afloat before asking for assistance. I had a Playstation 2 when my wife and I were poor and I sold it and all the games to pay rent one month. Sold my entire DVD collection, too. It's called making sacrifices and accepting handouts while trying to maintain appearances with designed purses and the newest cell phone shows a person wasn't willing to part with material goods before using government assistance as a last resort.

Expecting people to sell all their possessions before receiving benefits is utterly ridiculous.

It's got nothing to do with maintaining appearances, it's about not wanting to suddenly descend into 1930s living standards just because you lose your job.

You're right. There are a lot of good people on food stamps who work hard but, through no fault of their own, they aren't able to make ends meet. I have no issue helping those people and I'm glad I live in a society where a safety net like that is available.

Unfortunately, far too many also take advantage of the system and it's not hard to do. It needs reform.

An oft-repeated claim. Could you expand on what you mean by "far too many also take advantage of the system"? Presumably you have the figures to back this up?

 

[child of wonder]

Expecting people to sell all their possessions before receiving benefits is utterly ridiculous.

It's got nothing to do with maintaining appearances, it's about not wanting to suddenly descend into 1930s living standards just because you lose your job.

Who said anything about selling "all" their possessions? Did you not read my post? People should sell extravagant items they don't need, like designer purses for example.

An oft-repeated claim. Could you expand on what you mean by "far too many also take advantage of the system"? Presumably you have the figures to back this up?

No, but I do have a lot of close, personal experience with family members and friends who abuse the system. Almost everyone knows someone who games the system.

I don't advocate ending government assistance. It simply needs to be reformed to provide help for people who truly need it without allowing them to subsist forever on it or blatantly take advantage of it.

 

[Veliko]

Who said anything about selling "all" their possessions? Did you not read my post? People should sell extravagant items they don't need, like designer purses for example.

For what purpose? I'm not sure what you think this will achieve.

No, but I do have a lot of close, personal experience with family members and friends who abuse the system.

If all you have is anecdotal evidence then your claim is utterly baseless.

 

[child of wonder]

For what purpose? I'm not sure what you think this will achieve.

Selling unnecessary items prior to asking others to pay for your groceries doesn't make sense to you? Don't know what to tell you then.

My mother in law has refused to work for years since my father in law passed tragically from cancer. Despite our protests, she ran away to marry a man she met on the internet and had only seen for a few hours in real life. We told her it was a bad idea as the man had 3 ex-wives already and many of his own children refused to speak to him. In a year, she realized her mistake, divorced him, and returned to town but with most of her life insurance and equity from selling her home gone since he had needed a new truck for his business and so on.

After burying the hatchet and helping her for a bit, it quickly became evident she wasn't going to get a job and pay her own way but was expecting her relatives and her church to keep her afloat. One month she needed $600 to pay her rent as she was already behind by a month and would be evicted if she couldn't pay. Right after returning from the failed internet marriage, she had spent $600 on a new LCD TV and $1300 on a new computer, which was a major contributing factor for not having enough money for rent. We offered to pay her $600 rent in exchange for her LCD TV and computer which we would sell for her. We also offered to give her a 27" CRT TV, and an older computer and monitor so she'd wouldn't need to go without them. We'd then sell her TV and computer and anything we got beyond $600 we'd also give her.

"I have sacrificed enough!" was her angry response.

She didn't get it either.

If all you have is anecdotal evidence then your claim is utterly baseless.

It's not and you know it. The majority of people on assistance do not abuse it, but those that do are a cancer and a blight on the system. Something should be changed to shed the leeches and give help to those that truly need it, not those who refuse to help themselves.

You're arguing with a straw man here as I'm not saying "get rid of welfare!" One of the advantages of living in the greatest nation on Earth is that we as a society are willing to provide a safety net for those in need. It speaks volumes of our character that such programs exist. But just as with my mother in law, if someone chooses to rely on that assistance versus taking care of themselves, the help needs to end.

 

[Veliko]

More anecdotal evidence.

You have an incredibly simplistic outlook.

 

[Jhhnn]

No, I'm saying one should sell extravagances, like Coach purses, top of the line cell phones, or jewelry to stay afloat before asking for assistance. I had a Playstation 2 when my wife and I were poor and I sold it and all the games to pay rent one month. Sold my entire DVD collection, too. It's called making sacrifices and accepting handouts while trying to maintain appearances with designed purses and the newest cell phone shows a person wasn't willing to part with material goods before using government assistance as a last resort.



You're right. There are a lot of good people on food stamps who work hard but, through no fault of their own, they aren't able to make ends meet. I have no issue helping those people and I'm glad I live in a society where a safety net like that is available.

Unfortunately, far too many also take advantage of the system and it's not hard to do. It needs reform.



My now wife was a 17 year old high school senior when we met and I was a 22 year old college dropout. We made the mistake of not using protection and she quickly became pregnant. We decided I had to go back to college and get a 2 year degree so we could support our new family. We were on WIC and Medicaid as my wife worked full time as a bank teller (the best job she could get as a freshly graduated 18 year old) while I went to school full time and worked part time. Thanks to the assistance we received and a lot of luck and hard work, we're in a far, far better place than we were back then. You and every other taxpayer made an investment in us and it's paid huge dividends.

When I see others using assistance but not doing whatever it takes to get by or abusing that assistance it really upsets me. Government assistance should be a hand up, not a hand out or way of life. Many relatives on both sides of my family abuse the system and it needs reform badly.

Thank you for that.

OTOH, in an economy of very limited upside, the hand-up concept doesn't fit very well. That's simply because of lack of jobs. So we need a lot more jobs or we need to distribute goods & services via a different mechanism or some combination of the two. That's independent of assignments of moral value.

Maybe the system is just designed to provide a higher standard than you think it should. Maybe that's necessary because of deeper economic changes. And maybe that's the result of economic policy & leadership.

 

[child of wonder]

More anecdotal evidence.

You have an incredibly simplistic outlook.

And you have nothing of substance to say outside of "nuh uh!"

 

[child of wonder]

Thank you for that.

OTOH, in an economy of very limited upside, the hand-up concept doesn't fit very well. That's simply because of lack of jobs. So we need a lot more jobs or we need to distribute goods & services via a different mechanism or some combination of the two. That's independent of assignments of moral value.

Maybe the system is just designed to provide a higher standard than you think it should. Maybe that's necessary because of deeper economic changes. And maybe that's the result of economic policy & leadership.

Maybe so. I know there's no perfect solution and there will always be people who abuse it. That's just a sad reality. It doesn't mean we should "nuke it from orbit" because there are people that truly need help and I'm happy to give it to them. I would simply want people to exhaust all reasonable options to help themselves before using government assistance.

My wife and I assumed the purse of the woman we saw at Costco was a Coach because it had two "C's" on the side. My wife Google'd it and found it was actually a Chanel purse, which looks to go for $2,000 or more. I simply don't see why someone couldn't sell such an extravagant purse before expecting society to pay for their groceries.

 

[Veliko]

And you have nothing of substance to say outside of "nuh uh!"

There's nothing else to say.

 

[Engineer]

My wife and I assumed the purse of the woman we saw at Costco was a Coach because it had two "C's" on the side. My wife Google'd it and found it was actually a Chanel purse, which looks to go for $2,000 or more. I simply don't see why someone couldn't sell such an extravagant purse before expecting society to pay for their groceries.

Not saying that this is the case but many of those purses are fakes. Can be picked up at many flea markets, etc., especially if bought in foreign countries and brought here.

But to your greater message, I agree that there are too many people who abuse the system. Like I said above, go to work at a grocery store and see what comes through the line, especially after the 1st of the month. Mind boggling. I read recently that a county in West Virginia, just a country above where I grew up near, had 62% of the population on some sort of government assistance. It's crazy.

 

[Jhhnn]

Maybe so. I know there's no perfect solution and there will always be people who abuse it. That's just a sad reality. It doesn't mean we should "nuke it from orbit" because there are people that truly need help and I'm happy to give it to them. I would simply want people to exhaust all reasonable options to help themselves before using government assistance.

That doesn't account for reality. Current economic conditions are such that following your wishes would further impoverish median families & below more than they already have been. Business of all sorts depends on their consumption.

My wife and I assumed the purse of the woman we saw at Costco was a Coach because it had two "C's" on the side. My wife Google'd it and found it was actually a Chanel purse, which looks to go for $2,000 or more. I simply don't see why someone couldn't sell such an extravagant purse before expecting society to pay for their groceries.

Please. The purse was probably a $100 black market knock-off.

Going on about the exceptions to the rule just gets right wing idiots all self righteous & huffy, feeds the irrationality they absorbed from the vast right wing noise machine. That benefits only those spreading the propaganda & nobody else.

The Protestant work ethic was developed to serve the community in general, not individuals. They needed it to survive & prosper as a group. In that, there was work for everybody. Leadership saw to that. As the situation has evolved, leadership no longer provides work for everybody but they still want us to accept all the necessary moral values we held when they did their part, too.

Go figure.