-
We’re currently investigating an issue related to the forum theme and styling that is impacting page layout and visual formatting. The problem has been identified, and we are actively working on a resolution. There is no impact to user data or functionality, this is strictly a front-end display issue. We’ll post an update once the fix has been deployed. Thanks for your patience while we get this sorted.
Ford offering buyouts to all hourly workers
Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
Zenmervolt
Elite member
Ah, yes. Argument from intimidation. One of the more subtle forms of the ad hominem.
Instead of calling those who criticise the unions "jealous" perhaps you can instead offer some relevant data to refute their claims?
ZV
Let's not forget that the workers themselves control the union behavior, while I can't blame them for wanting to make more money they have obviously abused the power that unionization gives them.
This is a gigantic clusterfuck no matter how you cut it. Hopefully the buyouts will allow workers to start re-training themselves to do something that pays closer to their current wages.
Viper GTS
Just once, I'd like to see a union supporter man-up and admit that the unions, through strikes, intimidation, etc, have been a HUGE part of the downfall of the US car industry.
Rather than the typical BS responses about "boo hoo, they work so hard" (lots of them don't), it's hot, (it's hot lots of places), yadda yadda.
Fact is, they make too much money for what they do, period, end of story. And not just a little bit too much.....WAY too much.
Yeah, they work. Many do not work that hard. Just like any other place...there are some people who hump, some who do not. Just like anywhere else.
Intimidation, or pressure, or whatever you want to call it is the purpose of a union. In a market-based economy, everybody just takes as much as they can for as long as they can until the shithouse collapses. That seems to be the way our economy works of late. Seriously, if the management at our car companies was seriously concerned about fiscal solvency, and they cared about the business, why are they all paying themselves millions and millions of dollars?
Why fault a union for playing by the rules and using a good strategy? You can't expect someone working at a mindless job on an assembly line to give a rats ass about the state of his company. Especially not when upper management earns what they do. The workers are just there for a paycheck, same as the executives.
Kudos to them for sticking it to the fatcats.
Zenmervolt
Elite member
The biggest problem I have with unions is the whole policy of a "union shop". There is absolutely no way that such a thing should be legal. A union shop allows the union to effectively become a monopolist in the labor market because it's no longer possible to hire a non-union worker. Unions have used this monopoly power to raise the price of their labor above the free market value.
At least the "fatcats" are paid at free market rates for their contributions. They are paying "management" (you conveniently neglect the fact that most "managers" in a company earn $70K to $125K per year and it's only a very tiny percentage of Directors and above that make over $150K) more money because if they offered less they would not be able to find qualified people who were willing to do the job. No first-rate Director is going to go work for Ford or GM for $100,000 when they can get a $175,000 salary offer from 25 other companies.
Union pay rates are sustained only through the abuse of monopoly power because the free market rate for Union services is lower than the monopolistic prices being charged by the UAW.
ZV
Arkaign
Lifer
ZV is spot-on, per usual.
My question is; how do we fix the US Automaker industry?
Things that bother me :
(1)- US cars being assembled overseas ($$/jobs leaving our country)
(2)- US cars containing extremely high % of foreign parts ($$/jobs leaving our country)
(3)- US cars being of average or below average quality (this is admittedly improving, particularly in the case of GM)
Things that please me :
(1)- US cars often are good values (provided you find a decent model)
(2)- US trucks are still excellent (makes you wonder why they can't make cars as good as their trucks?)
(3)- US warranties are improving
My question is; how do we fix the US Automaker industry?
Things that bother me :
(1)- US cars being assembled overseas ($$/jobs leaving our country)
(2)- US cars containing extremely high % of foreign parts ($$/jobs leaving our country)
(3)- US cars being of average or below average quality (this is admittedly improving, particularly in the case of GM)
Things that please me :
(1)- US cars often are good values (provided you find a decent model)
(2)- US trucks are still excellent (makes you wonder why they can't make cars as good as their trucks?)
(3)- US warranties are improving
boomerang
Lifer
Although not a union supporter, I will respond. HUGE, no, not huge. Equal partner, yes. Equal partner with the people that run the company. And I don't buy into intimidation. Those days have been over for many decades.
How do you know they don't work hard? And if you were to be right, why in the hell is management letting them get away with it?
The market determines pricing and wages. If you're not happy with what they're paid, it's your right to think that. A lot of autoworkers will now be hired in at a lot lower rate of pay. Will that still be too high for people like yourself? Could be. My guess is your opinion will depend on how much they make versus how much you make.
And so we've come full circle as this topic always does here.
the trucks are inexpensive to manufacture and sell for high prices, so the makers can afford to do them properly to begin with. the compact cars are historically sold at a loss or bare break-even by domestic automakers, so they can't afford to put much in them.
for all the people claiming that the union had no control over the crap that detroit put out there, how do you propose that ford/gm/chrysler build a better car for $25,000 than toyota does when detroit is down $2500 in labor costs to toyota SOLELY because the UAW has a monopoly on the labor supply?
Zenmervolt
Elite member
In the case of union shops, the market absolutely does not determine wages. The union acts as a monopolist and sets wages at a point that is above the free market equilibrium price.
ZV
I don't know what a Union shop is. I was speaking in purely theoretical terms. If there is some law that says that GM or Ford have to use UAW workers to build their vehicles, it seems to me that something is awry. I agree with you on that.
I'm guessing somewhere along the line, the union realized factory workers, for the most part, weren't intelligent enough to realize that unionizing was in their best interest. Then they either got laws passed or signed contracts with the companies that required them to use union labor. Am I close?
So basically, the monopoly on labor is forcing on workers benefits and wages that are better than what the free market would offer them. In other words, these union agreements or laws, or whatever it is, are doing what's best (though that is a matter of opinion) for these people whether they know it or not.
I'm undecided on that issue right now. I'd like to believe we should all make our own decisions on this kind of stuff but the realist in me knows that doesn't work.
My point about the ceo's is just this. If the auto workers are being "greedy" by taking $28/hr for $14/hr work, what does that say about the ceo's, cfo's, and directors who take ten's of millions of dollars in salary and even more obscene amounts in severance from these companies? Don't give me crap about market value. No one is worth the kind of money our nations top executives make. It's an ole' boys club and they're all scratching each others back. You have to lead by example.
Zenmervolt
Elite member
Way to demean auto workers by saying that they're too stupid to figure things out on their own and that they need "big brother" in the form of a union to look out for them.
What happened was unions realised that they could vastly increase the scope of their political power and the monopolistic hold they have on the labor market by pushing through "union shop" laws and they spent huge sums of money buying off politicians to put those laws into effect. It was done for the benefit of the people who have high-ranking positions in the union, it was not done for the benefit of normal line workers.
It is never in the long-term best interest of anyone to set their price above the market value for their services. The price premium cannot be sustained indefinitely and there will always be a correction that brings the price back in line.
Just because you consider the pay that a very tiny percentage of the highest echelons receive to be "obscene" does not negate the fact that it is legitimately the free market equilibrium compensation for those positions. That's not "crap", that's the operating model that fuels our economy. You're free to dislike it and you're free to ignore it, but neither disliking it nor ignoring it will make it any less true.
ZV
boomerang
Lifer
We're actually in agreement. Wages are coming down - drastically. The market is in place settings wages. It's happening right now before our eyes. Right now. Don't think of a year ago, or 3 months ago. It's happening right now.
This is my problem with some of the arguments here. Things are changing at a rapid pace right now. Many of the arguments being made here are not relevant today.
I was going to reply earlier about your union shop statements. They are spot on.
The UAW leadership may have signed their own death warrant. They've agreed to allow massive hiring at a wage half of what previous workers were making. These new hires will rapidly be the majority of the work force. The internal strife that will ensue has the very real potential of destroying the union. Be patient folks and let it play out. You may need another dog to kick around in a few years.
SoundTheSurrender
Diamond Member
It'll teach the American car companies to stop producing crappy vehicles.
I agree with most of the anti-union rhetoric in this thread but I have to place some of the blame for the high union wages/benefits on management. It is natural for the union to try and extort every last penny they can from the company. If management didn't cave in every time the union made another outrageous demand then they wouldn't be in the situation they currently find themselves in. Management thinking any additional manufacturing costs could be passed on to the consumer used to work but that time is long gone.
if managment didn't cave in they would have had to shutter factories and somehow move all their production elsewhere in a very short order, something that none of the automakers could afford, even in the best of times. and when times were good, they could afford the monopoly on the labor market because each detroit automaker faced essentially the same labor cost.
unfortunately for detroit, it may have taken the unions too long. will that city ever recover or will it forever be a shell of what it was?
No, we're not full circle, because your assertion about the market determining pricing and wages is wrong when it comes to union shops, as others have already pointed out.
How do I know that some of the union workers don't work hard? Because I've seen it. Because I know lots of people who work/have worked in union shops.
I said specifically that "lots of them don't" work hard. Not all. But lots of them do not, and don't have to because they're practically immune from getting fired.
Here is a little example that is a small microcosm of the entire auto industry...this type of thing is taking place right now in every union shop:
A friend grew up in Michigan. A competing UAW plant to the one he worked at had 12 maintenance guys PER SHIFT for FOUR spark plug lines, or 500k plugs per day. His plant, a Japanese-run plant, had only three lines but make 850k plugs per day, and with only four maintenance guys per shift.
Why did that plant have so many useless maintenance guys and only produce 500k plugs with 4 lines, far less than the Japanese plant?
The union. And guess what those maintenance guys mostly did? That's right, absolutely nothing.
Oh, and guess what the AC Delco (the plugs the UAW plant I talked about above were making) started doing? They bought their plugs from the Denso plant (Toyota)...the quality was better, and Delco made a better profit on the Denso plugs than the plugs their own plant made.
Other union wastes....electricians who can't touch anything else but electrical work. Nope, can't help mop the floor, nothing. Same with most other jobs in union plants.
And so on and so forth...this is the way of life in a UAW plant. It isn't just the overpaid UAW workers...it's the whole package....their responsibilities while at work, staffing requirements..the whole thing.
Yes, the Big 3's management is a big part of the problem, but the UAW basically holding a gun to their heads is also a huge part of the problem.
I've worked in both a UAW and a Japanese auto plant. No question in my mind, the UAW is a hindrance to both quality and cost effectiveness. The union acts like they are a subcontractor to the OE instead of being workers for the company.
In my experience the UAW plant had a much higher mistake rate so to speak than the transplant auto plant. This is a factor in overall vehicle quality. Design quality is even more important though, that's where the US companies are really struggling in my opinion.
Regarding cost of workers, the transplant auto plant workers make almost the exact same money as the UAW workers. This situation was more or less decided for the import companies since if they paid their workers less than UAW scale wage, the union would just move in and take over the plant (after the workers voted for it that is). In terms of how much these people make, it's about $40k per year without overtime. Not that much really. Figure on about 20 hours of labor to build a car so that's only $800, not that much.
The main financial burden from labor is the retiree health care costs. Most UAW plants have a 30-and-out retirement plan so workers can retire at a young age and collect medical benefits till death. Imagine you live in the mid west where a nice home costs $150k - long since paid for even if you make $50 per year. You start work in an auto plant at age 20 and at 50 you can just retire and pull your pension. Not a bad life at all - start a second career.
The Asian transplant companies are starting to leverage their own workers based on the UAW's problems; medical benefits are scaling back in a high stakes game of chicken. In the past the threat of having the plant go over to the UAW was serious, now a days that's less of a concern thus the slow erosion of benefits. Like it or not, the UAW has driven up the living wage for ALL auto plant workers in the US. They may be overpaid, slightly, but not to the extent many think. It's not easy work, and there is not a lot of security anymore. Not a good situation if you are trying to feed a family.
In my experience the UAW plant had a much higher mistake rate so to speak than the transplant auto plant. This is a factor in overall vehicle quality. Design quality is even more important though, that's where the US companies are really struggling in my opinion.
Regarding cost of workers, the transplant auto plant workers make almost the exact same money as the UAW workers. This situation was more or less decided for the import companies since if they paid their workers less than UAW scale wage, the union would just move in and take over the plant (after the workers voted for it that is). In terms of how much these people make, it's about $40k per year without overtime. Not that much really. Figure on about 20 hours of labor to build a car so that's only $800, not that much.
The main financial burden from labor is the retiree health care costs. Most UAW plants have a 30-and-out retirement plan so workers can retire at a young age and collect medical benefits till death. Imagine you live in the mid west where a nice home costs $150k - long since paid for even if you make $50 per year. You start work in an auto plant at age 20 and at 50 you can just retire and pull your pension. Not a bad life at all - start a second career.
The Asian transplant companies are starting to leverage their own workers based on the UAW's problems; medical benefits are scaling back in a high stakes game of chicken. In the past the threat of having the plant go over to the UAW was serious, now a days that's less of a concern thus the slow erosion of benefits. Like it or not, the UAW has driven up the living wage for ALL auto plant workers in the US. They may be overpaid, slightly, but not to the extent many think. It's not easy work, and there is not a lot of security anymore. Not a good situation if you are trying to feed a family.
I'm not demeaning factory workers. It's isn't demeaning to state a fact. If our nation's working class acted in their best interest, 90% of them would be in unions, not 10%.
Corrupt politicians? That's business as usual. It's good to see the little guy getting something out of it too. And it does seem to have benefited the normal line workers who make $28/hr for $14/hr work and have good benefits no?
In a truly free market economy (which doesn't exist), yes that's true. I fail to see how your comment is relevant in the real world of subsidies, corporate lobbyists, and endless regulation.
Again, it's not a "free-market" that allows Home Depot to fire their CEO and give him over 200 million dollars on the way out. It's an oligarchic elite at the top of the corporate food chain passing favors around. Just because that's the way it is (and likely to be for a very long time) doesn't make it part of a free market (which doesn't and probably never will exist). The free market I'm thinking of is an economy in which solely the market determines prices and wages. Human greed, bias, and collegiality don't factor in (as they do in our and indeed, any human economy).
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 25K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 25K
-
Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread- Started by TheF34RChannel
- Replies: 24K
-
-
