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Ford offering buyouts to all hourly workers
- Thread starter steppinthrax
- Start date
tylerdustin2008
Diamond Member
Ford sucks anyway...
They need to pay a lower wage to people, and they will turn out even worse vehicles. And GM gets more business.
They need to pay a lower wage to people, and they will turn out even worse vehicles. And GM gets more business.
DISCLAIMER: Dad is blue collar union auto worker.
The problem with Ford or GM or Chrysler isn't their Union auto workers so much as it's Management F'ing up.
The factory worker just put on the car the sh1t that Management sends them to put on the car. Apart from your flier F up workers (which non-union shops will have as well), or your honest F up (which again, non-union shops have as well), 99.99% of the time those parts or fit and finish or whatever is done exactly how it's supposed to be. I worked for a summer on the assembly line, and the two guys that showed me how to do their jobs were showing me how to do them while looking at me - they have done them so many 10,000x (not an exageration) that they're basically perfect, everytime.
So if Management would stop giving the workers low quality parts to put on bad/shoddy/average designs, Domestic manufacturers wouldn't be in the trouble they're in.
Turning down the line speed from 71 cars an hour (which is - give or take a couple cars/hour - what it was running at when I was there - and Yes, I counted) to something more reasonable so people would not be overworked in the 110 degree heat might also help...but, that'd mean $20k less per car, per hour, rolling off the end of the line.
Just some thoughts based on first hand experience....
Chuck
P.S. I'm Management (albeit low leverl) at a huge telecomm company, so I see it from both sides...
The problem with Ford or GM or Chrysler isn't their Union auto workers so much as it's Management F'ing up.
The factory worker just put on the car the sh1t that Management sends them to put on the car. Apart from your flier F up workers (which non-union shops will have as well), or your honest F up (which again, non-union shops have as well), 99.99% of the time those parts or fit and finish or whatever is done exactly how it's supposed to be. I worked for a summer on the assembly line, and the two guys that showed me how to do their jobs were showing me how to do them while looking at me - they have done them so many 10,000x (not an exageration) that they're basically perfect, everytime.
So if Management would stop giving the workers low quality parts to put on bad/shoddy/average designs, Domestic manufacturers wouldn't be in the trouble they're in.
Turning down the line speed from 71 cars an hour (which is - give or take a couple cars/hour - what it was running at when I was there - and Yes, I counted) to something more reasonable so people would not be overworked in the 110 degree heat might also help...but, that'd mean $20k less per car, per hour, rolling off the end of the line.
Just some thoughts based on first hand experience....
Chuck
P.S. I'm Management (albeit low leverl) at a huge telecomm company, so I see it from both sides...
^...Chucky, the reason the unions have killed the auto industry isn't because the workers do a bad job. (even though they do a bad job more often than most foreign car builders)
No, the reason is how much they are getting paid to do a mindless job, and how great their pensions and benefits are. THAT is what made GM, Ford, and Chrysler cut costs elsewhere.
I read somewhere that GM has a billion-dollar either health care or pension bill for retirees only. Yep, they spend a BILLION dollars a year on retirees...and that's just on one of the retirees' benefits.
The fact of the matter is, the UAW workers are grossly overpaid for what they do. They need zero skills to work on an assembly line, and can easily approach 6 figures in income, PLUS killer benefits/retirement.
No other industry I can think of requires so little of its workers and gives so much.
No, the reason is how much they are getting paid to do a mindless job, and how great their pensions and benefits are. THAT is what made GM, Ford, and Chrysler cut costs elsewhere.
I read somewhere that GM has a billion-dollar either health care or pension bill for retirees only. Yep, they spend a BILLION dollars a year on retirees...and that's just on one of the retirees' benefits.
The fact of the matter is, the UAW workers are grossly overpaid for what they do. They need zero skills to work on an assembly line, and can easily approach 6 figures in income, PLUS killer benefits/retirement.
No other industry I can think of requires so little of its workers and gives so much.
BarneyFife
Diamond Member
Problem with Ford is that they don't know wtf they are doing.
They have the Ford 500, Fusion, and then they brought back the Taurus.
The F150 and Mustang are the flagship.
The Lincoln line of cars sucks. Who had the bright idea of naming the cars mkx, mkz, etc. Who designed the new Navigator? That thing is horrific.
Mercury has the Milan and now they brought back the Sable. It doesn't make sense. Kill the Mountaineer already. Nobody buys those anymore.
I'm just confused at Ford. They kill their best selling vehicles, invent new models with wacky names, and then bring back the old car they killed. Management is completely clueless.
They have the Ford 500, Fusion, and then they brought back the Taurus.
The F150 and Mustang are the flagship.
The Lincoln line of cars sucks. Who had the bright idea of naming the cars mkx, mkz, etc. Who designed the new Navigator? That thing is horrific.
Mercury has the Milan and now they brought back the Sable. It doesn't make sense. Kill the Mountaineer already. Nobody buys those anymore.
I'm just confused at Ford. They kill their best selling vehicles, invent new models with wacky names, and then bring back the old car they killed. Management is completely clueless.
The Boston Dangler
Lifer
it's not the worker bees that decided to design, build and sell utter shit. the big 3 american companies have no intention of putting out quality products. we can put a man on the moon, but my mom can't buy a taurus without the transmission breaking in half.
"what the heck makes those japanese cars so good? let's tear apart a bunch to see what they're doing."
a week later:
"whoa whoa whoa, that would slightly increase our costs. screw that"
i'll buy an american car when american cars don't suck.
edit: i think the brunette in the mercury ads is awesome
"what the heck makes those japanese cars so good? let's tear apart a bunch to see what they're doing."
a week later:
"whoa whoa whoa, that would slightly increase our costs. screw that"
i'll buy an american car when american cars don't suck.
edit: i think the brunette in the mercury ads is awesome
Stunt
Diamond Member
While I agree management and the company itself must carry some of the blame for the demise of Ford/GM/Chrysler, the unions were the root cause for the current state of affairs. Just think about it logically, you think all domestic car companies have the same bad management and the same horrid design teams? That's a near impossible situation, where three of the largest automakers in the world suffer the same corporate flaws. The only common thing between these three companies is the UAW; tell me how it's Ford's management when GM and Chrysler is suffering the same hardaches as Ford?
Now it's not as easy as just blaming the unions, one must understand how the unions impact the business itself. First off these companies have spent all of their free capital on retirees, benefits, and wages that they have very little left over to invest in automation. This is something the Japanese have had no problems with because they don't have these burdens and are starting from scratch. Also with the big three trying to compensate for these higher costs of manufacture, they have not been able to include as much content as their comparable Japanese models. Remember when power windows and locks were options on American cars and almost standard on the Japanese cars? Foriegn companies were able to offer so much more for the dollar than American companies and that really killed their market share. The root cause; high costs from unions both in per unit of labour and culture of minimal motivation.
Now it's not as easy as just blaming the unions, one must understand how the unions impact the business itself. First off these companies have spent all of their free capital on retirees, benefits, and wages that they have very little left over to invest in automation. This is something the Japanese have had no problems with because they don't have these burdens and are starting from scratch. Also with the big three trying to compensate for these higher costs of manufacture, they have not been able to include as much content as their comparable Japanese models. Remember when power windows and locks were options on American cars and almost standard on the Japanese cars? Foriegn companies were able to offer so much more for the dollar than American companies and that really killed their market share. The root cause; high costs from unions both in per unit of labour and culture of minimal motivation.
The Boston Dangler
Lifer
i really couldn't disagree with you more. crying poor-mouth is a pretty pathetic defense. foreign companies with plants in the US put out a far superior product than the big 3. put out a better product, and you'll get my money. put out huge-margin garbage, and i take my money elsewhere. have you even seen the interior of a domestic car?
While I don't doubt Union workers are allowed to get away with committing more errors/BS than their non-Union counterparts, I really doubt that error rate is so much higher it leads to a statistically trackable measure of quality. When I worked on the line, the regulars there were fanatical about quality. When you pay people enough they take pride in their jobs, it shows...
Yeah, for the most part, it is pretty mindless, and the health care is great along with a good pension system. But to say that's why the Domestic's had to design a Ford 3.8L V-6 that is notorious for blowing heads gaskets (because of bad design by Management, and poorer than necessary gasket quality (not placement) to overcompensate for that bad design), or to say that GM 3.4L have coolant sealant tabs added to the radiator hoses at the factory because GM is too cheap to fix their design, or because the you can't keep a tranmission in a Chrysler half the time...all because the overall cost differential of Union workers vs non-Union workers is so great? No, that's utter BS. Ford's Mullaney or whatever his name is hadn't worked day 1 at Ford, yet he gets 35 million a year from Ford...don't talk about Union people who actually have work output making too much when you have 3.8L sized F'ups and still pay your Management beucoup ching...
Relax...It's actually much worse than you think. GM just paid 30 something Billion into an account that the UAW will now manage - GM just got out of the health care business. Also, there's a two-tiered payscale now where new hirees make a whopping $14 or so an hour, while their existing Union brothers and sisters doign the same job in the same conditions next to them make double or almost double that - but, you'll get the same quality out of them by doing that right?? Out of all that though, you can be assured of a few things: 1.) Materials quality nor features will increase to or past Japenese units, 2.) Domestic cars will cost the same, 3.) Management will continue to rake in rediculous profits for about 0 contribution to the company.
As I said above, that's now been fixed - or fixed for the future. So take comfort in there will be less buying power from those UAW workers, less quality of living (before you could have a UAW support his/her family...not even remotely close any longer), the same exact Domestic quality and features, and Domestic Upper Management laughing all the way to the bank...
Chuck
I don't begrudge anyone earning a living for their family, but you overstate the impact any cuts are going to have.....now the UAW workers will simply be on a more level playing field with the rest of us.
Really...there are plenty of people with college degrees, even doctors who make less than some UAW workers. Their buying power was way more than it should have been....they are finally going to experience a market correction.
And don't weep for them...they are still overpaid for their abilities.
Really...there are plenty of people with college degrees, even doctors who make less than some UAW workers. Their buying power was way more than it should have been....they are finally going to experience a market correction.
And don't weep for them...they are still overpaid for their abilities.
BarneyFife
Diamond Member
This is sort of my point. Too many changes.
The Boston Dangler
Lifer
i don't know or care if the japanese and european owned US plants use organized labor or not, that is irrelevant. that is not my argument.
to clarify, my argument is: domestic manufacturers choose to sell a crap product, and their sales suffer for it. 2 years ago, i purchased a new car, and a domestic was at no time an option. i would like to buy a car Made In USA, if the car i want happens to be made here, by any company. it's very unlikely that car will be GM, Ford or DC.
and the interior thing certainly is a matter of opinion. some people like filet mignon, some people like cat food. if i'm spending tens of thousands of dollars, it damn well better be the filet.
There's not much difference in the foreign cars and domestics these days, quality-wise. Hasn't been for a few years now.
It's going to take a few more years to change the perception of people like yourself that Hondas and Toyotas are head and shoulders above any domestics. It just isn't true now, but they didn't earn that perception overnight, and the domestics aren't going to catch up with them in perception overnight.
But GM and Ford, GM in particular, are building some damn nice cars these days.
It's going to take a few more years to change the perception of people like yourself that Hondas and Toyotas are head and shoulders above any domestics. It just isn't true now, but they didn't earn that perception overnight, and the domestics aren't going to catch up with them in perception overnight.
But GM and Ford, GM in particular, are building some damn nice cars these days.
I guess we'll just agree to disagree here...
I agree that h/s dropouts can do assembly line and even skilled trades jobs, however I don't take away they have to do it in conditions far harsher than an air conditioned IT office, they don't get to sit in padded chairs like normal Management positions, and their bodies are subjected to repetitive stress injuries that I doubt any Dr. is ever going to see.
My dad is at the upper end of the Union blue collar skilled trades pay scale, and he had to work a whole lot of OT (plus night shift) this past year to just hit a 6 figure income. At 55 his body is shot (like most that have gone a full 30+ year pull).
I think given those conditions, long term health problems, and asking them to get the job done faster and better than the non-Union competition, they ought to be paid a fair wage. This is America, not N. Korea: We reward people for their labor here, not demand it of them for pennies.
Chuck
The Boston Dangler
Lifer
we've been hearing "we caught up to the japs and germans" for a couple decades now, and it still isn't true.
sure, gm, dc and ford sell tons of cars all over the world, and have developed suitable designs and technologies for different markets. but the problem still remains: opels and holdens are better than chevys and pontiacs, and ford europe is not ford usa (nor are the best mustangs for that matter). please, don't compare caddy and lincoln to bmw, audi and lexus.
i do think the ford focus was a big step in the right direction, and i'm hearing good things about gm's new 4 cylinder. dc should bring the smart cars here. there is a lot of potential, and i would like to see americans gainfully employed. but if they want to sell me a pontiac aztec with romper room interior, or a charger with anything but a proper 6 speed manual, i'm going elsewhere.
sure, gm, dc and ford sell tons of cars all over the world, and have developed suitable designs and technologies for different markets. but the problem still remains: opels and holdens are better than chevys and pontiacs, and ford europe is not ford usa (nor are the best mustangs for that matter). please, don't compare caddy and lincoln to bmw, audi and lexus.
i do think the ford focus was a big step in the right direction, and i'm hearing good things about gm's new 4 cylinder. dc should bring the smart cars here. there is a lot of potential, and i would like to see americans gainfully employed. but if they want to sell me a pontiac aztec with romper room interior, or a charger with anything but a proper 6 speed manual, i'm going elsewhere.
I sorta agree with the design and materials thing...case in point: My cousin has always been a big Dodge fan. We went to the Chicago Auto Show last year and he dragged me over to the Charger, Challenger, etc. And each time, I didn't have to say a thing....he was like, "The interiors in these things look like a Tonka truck plastic interior!!"
He was all set to buy a new Dodge car this year...now he's not even looking at Dodge. Another lost sale because Management and the bean counters there decided that spending a total of $100 on the plastic for the dash was better than spending $150 for the plastic on the dashboard. Yeah....that $50 really saved you there Management...but, it's the Unions fault.... :roll:
Now, Thankfully, he'll stay Domestic while he can't afford a BMW or Audi...but, the rest of the US is not like him...which is why we see people buying Japenese still...
And just wait until China gets its auto program up and running....how about cars priced half of what they are now... :frown:
Chuck
He was all set to buy a new Dodge car this year...now he's not even looking at Dodge. Another lost sale because Management and the bean counters there decided that spending a total of $100 on the plastic for the dash was better than spending $150 for the plastic on the dashboard. Yeah....that $50 really saved you there Management...but, it's the Unions fault.... :roll:
Now, Thankfully, he'll stay Domestic while he can't afford a BMW or Audi...but, the rest of the US is not like him...which is why we see people buying Japenese still...
And just wait until China gets its auto program up and running....how about cars priced half of what they are now... :frown:
Chuck
Dude, anywhere near 6 figures for working on a freaking assembly line is FAR more than fair.
Again, there are doctors and lawyers that don't make that much money.
Mechanics are far more skilled than assembly line workers and on average they aren't anywhere close in pay...and I guarantee they work just as hard.
Again, I'm not going to fault anyone for wanting to make more money, but UAW worker are VERY well compensated for what they do. Construction work is another example....they work just as hard, and the skill level is higher. But they make nowhere near what UAW workers do.
I'll reiterate that I believe UAW workers make more and have better benefits than any other workers doing jobs that require a similar skill/training level.
A couple of decades? A couple of decades ago, that was when the Jap cars were just catching up to the domestics, and that's also when the domestics were still sliding downhill. Nobody was saying the domestics had caught up back then, or even ten years ago.
BMW and Audi don't compare to Lexus. I'll compare a Lincoln to a BMW all day long. BMW's quality isn't that great, plus all the Euro cars are expensive as hell to own/maintain.
Besides, nobody really cares about Euro cars....the perceived quality difference that everyone has a problem with is with the Jap cars, Honda and Toyota specifically.
Ford and GM are all over them right now, and have been for a few years now. Look at the quality surveys....proof is in the pudding. Honda and Toyota are declining in quality, while the domestics are getting better and better.
Except he's skilled trades, not an assembly line worker. And that's with lots of OT (you do agree in the concept that if you work, you should be compensated for it right?) plus night shift differential. If you know Dr.'s and lawyers that make less than 65-70k a year - since that's what'd he'd be around if assembly line with no OT no night shift differential - then that's pretty sad.
I know mechanics that make $30 an hour...yes your Jiffy Lube "mechanic" doens't make that much, but nor should he. Mechanics get to stop and take a smoke, stop and get something to drink, stop and shoot the sh1t. If it's slow they shoot the sh1t even more. You are not comparing apples to apples here. An assembly line worker is working for 8 hours almost straight, except for a less than 20 minute break in the morning part, a 30 minute lunch, and a less than 20 minute break in the afternoon part. That's it. You find me a job where you're busting your @ss in 110 degree heat in the summer, it's cold in the winter, there's repetitve motion injury from the doing the same job 10,000x, you have to do it perfect each time, and you do it without stopping - period - except on your scheduled breaks and I'll show you someone who deserves to be paid well. This is not any of the professions your mentioning here.
Yes, they are very well compensated...and they earn every penny of it. The construction workers don't make what UAW workers do because there are so many illegal workers in construction it drives the price down. They can make good money though if they have steady work and get paid for it. We had a guy come in and drywall a room for us and it was like $700 (because we didn't want to pay the illegal work $250 to do it). Now, he was done in maybe 8 hours total. Drywall, taping, some closet trim, mudding, sanding, etc. Divide $700 into 8 and tell me what you get for $ per hour.
That may be true...but don't fault them for that. Just because white collar is too F'ing stupid to stop putting up with "free" work isn't the UAW's fault. Just because illegal workers depress blue collar wages isn't the UAW's fault.
You want to fault the UAW with something, get them to give the companies fire repeat offender employees who are just F tards. People who can't be consistently bothered to show up to work don't deserve a job...there's something to nail the UAW for...
Chuck
The Boston Dangler
Lifer
like i said, filet mignon and cat food. enjoy your cat food.
StageLeft
No Lifer
Nobody said the workers do a crap job, but they are getting paid too much for it. Why would a person make $60k/year+benefits to do what you could train a 16 year old to do in a weekend? It doesn't make sense, and some of what these union workers do IS that easy.
This article shouldn't even exist. If my company wanted to cut productivity and cost it gets rid of workers. "Buying them out"? What is this, an allowance? Need going-away money from Mom & Dad?
First of all, it's management's company, so they should make the product. And laughing to the bank? Have you seen stocks? Ford is approaching HALF the market share it had a decade ago, down to 14.8 from 26%. These companies are hemorrhaging money.
And if a worker is annoyed at the lack of their standard of living, nobody even told them they couldn't get a college degree. And making $28/hour they could afford one. Ford's new workers, with an agreement with the UAW, can make $14/hour--half of what another one makes. If they can find people to do it at $14, clearly those doing it for $28 are grossly overpaid. $28/hour is what a nurse with experience makes in my city, not somebody doing a job you could train a kid to do in a weekend.
You are right and until that perception slowly changes, the big 3 will continue to lose ground at an alarming rate.
Oh how absolutely sad. I know people with university degrees in highly skilled positions working 60+ hours week not making anything close to six figures.
The market defines fair. Apparently it's more like $14 hour than $28, since Ford will find people at that rate.
This is, of course true.
If people are willing to do it for less, it's worth less. I go into mcdonalds and I know those people working their ass off for a small fraction of what I make are working harder, but they are not working smarter and if they wanted to be sitting in a chair making more money they should have gotten an education because essentially they're not doing anything a robot cannot do and it is totally mindless. Our economy doesn't reward sweat, it rewards brains.
This article shouldn't even exist. If my company wanted to cut productivity and cost it gets rid of workers. "Buying them out"? What is this, an allowance? Need going-away money from Mom & Dad?
First of all, it's management's company, so they should make the product. And laughing to the bank? Have you seen stocks? Ford is approaching HALF the market share it had a decade ago, down to 14.8 from 26%. These companies are hemorrhaging money.
And if a worker is annoyed at the lack of their standard of living, nobody even told them they couldn't get a college degree. And making $28/hour they could afford one. Ford's new workers, with an agreement with the UAW, can make $14/hour--half of what another one makes. If they can find people to do it at $14, clearly those doing it for $28 are grossly overpaid. $28/hour is what a nurse with experience makes in my city, not somebody doing a job you could train a kid to do in a weekend.
You are right and until that perception slowly changes, the big 3 will continue to lose ground at an alarming rate.
Oh how absolutely sad. I know people with university degrees in highly skilled positions working 60+ hours week not making anything close to six figures.
The market defines fair. Apparently it's more like $14 hour than $28, since Ford will find people at that rate.
This is, of course true.
If people are willing to do it for less, it's worth less. I go into mcdonalds and I know those people working their ass off for a small fraction of what I make are working harder, but they are not working smarter and if they wanted to be sitting in a chair making more money they should have gotten an education because essentially they're not doing anything a robot cannot do and it is totally mindless. Our economy doesn't reward sweat, it rewards brains.
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