For what purpose does a PS4 need 8 weak cores?

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R0H1T

Platinum Member
Jan 12, 2013
2,582
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Were you not present during Gen 7 when classically PC only games like Crysis, Battlefield, ummmm...what else does PC have Haha, got Console versions?

Gen 7 was a lit of "Why are PC games getting dumbed down to cater to the giant console market?" Most of gen 7 consoles were lead platforms with ports coming to PC, this time its more PC is lead platform with ports going to consoles.

I'm not sure about you, but if I were a console manufacturer I'd prefer my system be lead NOT the after thought.

Mobile gaming is not going to hurt gaming as a whole. There has been enough research into this. Yes, mobile boomed, but now it's floundering and traditional desktop/console gaming is reviving, and oddly with PC leading the front.

EDIT: DOA is on Steam man. DOA!!!!! If the Japanese market transfers over to PC the consoles loose a huge chunk of their appeal to a large sub section of the gaming community. And if you follow gaming, you know they are waiting at the chance. FFXIII looks amazing on PC.
Wrong, you want your console to sell well & in fact technological prowess is the last on any profit making corp's list. If the mobile arena (ARM) could deliver comparable profits as the traditional gaming console then I'm pretty sure MS, Sony would ditch their current x86 offering in a heartbeat & move to something like a Shield tablet.

A bit selfish? I'm a consumer, my interest is my needs first. What you spend on your rig/consoles is your business, not mine. However, because I'm selfish doesn't mean I'm cheap (even though I am :D ). I spend a good portion of my disposable income in my hobby, which is gaming. At no point did I say my opinion is THE ONLY opinion or that I should be catered to. People trying to dismiss opinions because "you're not an engineer" or "you don't own stock" or whatever is rather trite. Feel free to share your opinions/thoughts (especially on a forum - t'is the purpose). These companies don't need my specific dollar, but when a vocal majority are slamming your choices, it's hard to take those defending the choices odd. Are you a consumer or stock holder? As a consume their choices sucked. As a stock holder, be a while before I see the return on those choices, and MSFT frankly just axe that division it's costing us (stock holders) yachts.
This is what you want but not what's in the interest of MS, Sony & most game developers. You have to understand that consoles are the lowest common denominator, when it comes to devs, & know that if/when they raise that (performance) threshold they're also losing a lot of PC gamers. The number of users gaming with an IGP on Steam will prove this point.
 
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FX2000

Member
Jul 23, 2014
67
0
0
They lose profit on consoles. Earn a ton from their respective online services, licenses for games etcetera.
 

Erenhardt

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2012
3,251
105
101
MS and Sony lost money from day 1 on hardware. Not sure why people hold on to that myth.

They still lose money. And a shrink isnt changing that.

People often confuse BOM cost with actual cost. Even if you got all the buyers to stand in front of the factory and had 0 RMA, BOM cost would still be a wrong measurement of the actual cost.

And due to the fun fact of transistor cost. A 20nm shrinked SoC will cost more than the 28nm one. While you can save on other parts, the SoC itself isnt one of them.

1. They report that console sales boosted profits by 90% of sony game devision.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-07-31-ps4-helps-sony-to-profit

2. You don't know details of how amd supplies sony and ms with SoC. It doesn't matter if 20nm SoC is more expensive or cheaper to manufacture if they agreed with amd upon certain price no matter if it is 28nm or 20 nm. We don't even know if 20nm will be more expensive let alone if the cost will be shifted to sony/ms.

3. There probably will not be an apu in consoles after shrink, right?:whiste:
 

jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
16,490
6,983
136
IIRC, both consoles at the launch prices were pretty close to breakeven. MS removing Kinect and cutting the price from $499 to $349 alters things for sure.
 

R0H1T

Platinum Member
Jan 12, 2013
2,582
163
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They still lose money. And a shrink isnt changing that.

People often confuse BOM cost with actual cost. Even if you got all the buyers to stand in front of the factory and had 0 RMA, BOM cost would still be a wrong measurement of the actual cost.

And due to the fun fact of transistor cost. A 20nm shrinked SoC will cost more than the 28nm one. While you can save on other parts, the SoC itself isnt one of them.
This is assuming poor (early) yields OR do you have something that we don't i.e. TSMC's 20nm yield numbers & BoM cost figures including the 20nm APU :confused:
 

railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
6,604
561
126
Wrong, you want your console to sell well & in fact technological prowess is the last on any profit making corp's list. If the mobile arena (ARM) could deliver comparable profits as the traditional gaming console then I'm pretty sure MS, Sony would ditch their current x86 offering in a heartbeat & move to something like a Shield tablet.

These are two separate issues that aren't related. Hardware != software != sales. Example: Wii. Worst catalog, hardware of Gen 7, most hardware sales.

A manufacturer (ie licensee) definitely wants their console to be lead - you know why? Because it garauntees that title will release on your platform. Which even if you have terrible hardware, it will give your platform an advantage or put it on par with others (note, this doesn't mean end result is the same). Think of all the games end of gen 7 that didn't see a Xbox360 release and those were developed on the PS3. This gave the PS3 a bigger boost in regions that these specific studios cater too. End result, PS3 outsold Xbox 360 on the push of these smaller markets to buy a specific genre of game that was only available on the PS3.

MSFT/SONY choosing their hardware is basically based on price. It was most likely the best they could get with the amount they were willing to spend. Kudos to them for keeping their bottom in line. Sucks for us consumers who were expecting a little more oomph from our consoles.

This is what you want but not what's in the interest of MS, Sony & most game developers. You have to understand that consoles are the lowest common denominator, when it comes to devs, & know that if/when they raise that (performance) threshold they're also losing a lot of PC gamers. The number of users gaming with an IGP on Steam will prove this point.

Consoles are not the lowest denominator, that actually goes to handle helds (unless you want to include mobile phones, but naaaah haha) and you'll see these platforms still get a plethora of games, ports, etc. Sony/MSFT COULD still cater to the devs in the same sense that you are implying by using better (costlier) options. But that would hurt their bottom line so they catered to the devs as cheaply as possible which is hurting them in the sense a certain sub group of gamer are abandoning consoles (and if you don't think they exist, frequent forums that have don't segregate their users into "Console Gamer" and "PC Gamer" sub sections.)

I never thought I'd commonly read "just get a PC and a Wii U, you'll get 90% of the best console games and all the Nintendo exclusives. Cheaper for games too."

1. They report that console sales boosted profits by 90% of sony game devision.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-07-31-ps4-helps-sony-to-profit

How many PS3's did they sell in that same time frame in 2013? (Hint: not many). They sold roughly 4 million PS4's in that time frame versus the 2 million PS3's sold.

THEY ALSO sold about 500K PS3's in that same time frame ON TOP of the 4 million or so PS4s.

Yet they only reported 90% increase? Do you not see how this is corporate spin at it's finest?

EDIT: Holy crap actually reading that article more in depth it comes off like this:
"Sony almost doubles gaming division sales on the back of the successful PS4

BUT that includes the combined sales of the PS3+PS4...

AND that increase in PS+ supscriptions which are required to play PS4 online, where as the PS3 last year didn't need this...

OH AND Sony sold a building, that helped too!"
 
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FX2000

Member
Jul 23, 2014
67
0
0
Like how much? What is the current loss Sony and MS are taking on each unit.
Let's say Steam now own AMD + Intel + Nvidia.
They sell computers now. They are also the /only/ place to get ANY games for computers.
They sell PC'S with i7's & 290X'es for 3-400$.
They lose money on each PC.
When people need games, they can only buy them from Steam. Steam therefore loses money on the PC, but regains it & earns more during the lifespan of the device.
 

monstercameron

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2013
3,818
1
0
Let's say Steam now own AMD + Intel + Nvidia.
They sell computers now. They are also the /only/ place to get ANY games for computers.
They sell PC'S with i7's & 290X'es for 3-400$.
They lose money on each PC.
When people need games, they can only buy them from Steam. Steam therefore loses money on the PC, but regains it & earns more during the lifespan of the device.

allegedly early reports had mentioned that the consoles were now turning a slight profit rather than a loss like last gen.
 

tential

Diamond Member
May 13, 2008
7,348
642
121
Why don't we keep this conversation on core count rather than turning a profit?

Also OP, I'm pretty sure 2 cores are dedicated to background tasks/OS for the PS4. Only 6 are dedicated to the games themselves.
 

AnandThenMan

Diamond Member
Nov 11, 2004
3,991
626
126
They sell PC'S with i7's & 290X'es for 3-400$.
They lose money on each PC.
No sane company would take that kind of loss on each unit sold it's corporate suicide. You are basically talking about the same business model as the consoles but using a PC, and losing much more on each piece of hardware sold.
Also OP, I'm pretty sure 2 cores are dedicated to background tasks/OS for the PS4. Only 6 are dedicated to the games themselves.
I don't know if dedicated is the right word. At least one core on Windows is being used for the OS, and tasks jump around and use whatever resources are needed at the time.
 

tential

Diamond Member
May 13, 2008
7,348
642
121
We're talking about the PS4. On XboxOne, 1 core is dedicated to the OS, and the "7th" core we've heard about the new changes to that as devs are now allowed to access it.
 

R0H1T

Platinum Member
Jan 12, 2013
2,582
163
106
These are two separate issues that aren't related. Hardware != software != sales. Example: Wii. Worst catalog, hardware of Gen 7, most hardware sales.

A manufacturer (ie licensee) definitely wants their console to be lead - you know why? Because it garauntees that title will release on your platform. Which even if you have terrible hardware, it will give your platform an advantage or put it on par with others (note, this doesn't mean end result is the same). Think of all the games end of gen 7 that didn't see a Xbox360 release and those were developed on the PS3. This gave the PS3 a bigger boost in regions that these specific studios cater too. End result, PS3 outsold Xbox 360 on the push of these smaller markets to buy a specific genre of game that was only available on the PS3.

MSFT/SONY choosing their hardware is basically based on price. It was most likely the best they could get with the amount they were willing to spend. Kudos to them for keeping their bottom in line. Sucks for us consumers who were expecting a little more oomph from our consoles.
Agreed, certainly to an extent, but as I argued previously this (choosing x86) is a result of few things like ~
  1. they could cater to a larger audience
  2. the performance lead was substantial to the nearest viable competitor i.e. ARM
  3. the library of games (on PC) is the largest, most profitable which can then profit from a common platform i.e. x86
As for your argument about Wii, I doubt that the software (game) sales were greater than that of PS3 or Xbox 360. That'd reinforce the point that people pay for premium content, i.e. better looking games, & as such the likes of Sonic, Mario can never command a premium like Halo does.
Consoles are not the lowest denominator, that actually goes to handle helds (unless you want to include mobile phones, but naaaah haha) and you'll see these platforms still get a plethora of games, ports, etc. Sony/MSFT COULD still cater to the devs in the same sense that you are implying by using better (costlier) options. But that would hurt their bottom line so they catered to the devs as cheaply as possible which is hurting them in the sense a certain sub group of gamer are abandoning consoles (and if you don't think they exist, frequent forums that have don't segregate their users into "Console Gamer" and "PC Gamer" sub sections.)

I never thought I'd commonly read "just get a PC and a Wii U, you'll get 90% of the best console games and all the Nintendo exclusives. Cheaper for games too."
Not sure I follow, I'd assumed that console (viz PS4) games were ported to PC or vice versa, this current gen, but handheld games are developed separately (using the same game engine?) So unless we're talking about Super Mario, Sonic the hedgehog or other classic games, I don't see how handhelds would be the lowest denominator?

Lastly with cheap(er) consoles they can sell a lot more units in developing nations which was not possible last gen. This being a vital factor as more consoles are gonna be sold outside the realm of developed nations, certainly in the not so distant future, & so it's sensible to make'em as cheap as possible, though a cut (or two) above the handhelds.
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
145
106
1. They report that console sales boosted profits by 90% of sony game devision.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-07-31-ps4-helps-sony-to-profit

And how much of that is PS4 hardware profit? The answer is a negative part.

Key part:

Sony's Game and Network Services division, of which PlayStation is a part, enjoyed sales of $2.55bn during the quarter ending 30th June 2014 - that's up an incredible 95.7 per cent on the same period last financial year.

As always, the profit with consoles is outside the hardware.
 
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ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
145
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This is assuming poor (early) yields OR do you have something that we don't i.e. TSMC's 20nm yield numbers & BoM cost figures including the 20nm APU :confused:

20nm simply cost more than 28nm per transistor. Not to mention design.

11635d1406145622-sfdsoi2.jpg
 

john5220

Senior member
Mar 27, 2014
551
0
0
Most likely due to 2 things.

1. Wanting the consoles to be much more than gaming. TV, socializing etc.
2. 8 is bigger number than 4. And for the unknowning it sounds better. Same reason why we see 8 cores in a phone.

Yeah right?

And 1080p 5 inch screens and 4K 5 inch screens that the human eye cannot even detect yet running down the battery life by double due to insane screen resolution.
 

railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
6,604
561
126
Agreed, certainly to an extent, but as I argued previously this (choosing x86) is a result of few things like ~
  1. they could cater to a larger audience
  2. the performance lead was substantial to the nearest viable competitor i.e. ARM
  3. the library of games (on PC) is the largest, most profitable which can then profit from a common platform i.e. x86
1: They already catered to a large audience, to the toon of a collective ~250 million users. Switching to x86 may have alienated a handful that can't carry over their previous library at all (not even their digital purchases!).
2: For off the shelf parts, which ties back down to cost. A custom made chip could have (I'd argue would have) performed better. Instead, they lobbed it using price as the crutch.
3. That means absolutely nothing since a greater portion of games on PC for years still won't see console versions (RTS/MOBAs/MMOs). I'd argue consoles have a stronger library than PC. Years gaming, my console library dwarfed my PC library. That is what made consoles special to me. I started noticing with Gen7 that a lot of the games were now seeing PC versions. Which started to slowly drift me away from consoles.


As for your argument about Wii, I doubt that the software (game) sales were greater than that of PS3 or Xbox 360. That'd reinforce the point that people pay for premium content, i.e. better looking games, & as such the likes of Sonic, Mario can never command a premium like Halo does.

I'd say Nintendo has some brand power:
Mario Kart 8 releases - Wii U sees a boom in sales.
Melee releases - Wii U sees a boom in sales.

Nintendo has more system selling mascots than MSFT and Sony combined. That doesn't mean Wii U (or Wii, or Nintendo) is selling more consoles. Genre plays a big factor into the number of sales as much as content. But when a Mario game can double almost triple Hardware sales by itself, you can't make the claim that Mario can never command a premium like Halo does.

Nintendo has the stigma of it being the "little kids" console which it does nothing to shake off. Nintendo has it's own audience and Sony/MSFT would KILL to even get a touch at that. Don't forget Pokemon, believe it or not, it has a higher attach ratio than Halo.

But the issue for Nintendo was it's software was too poor. Devs didn't bring big games to the Wii (and now Wii U) citing hardware restrictions and Nintendo's own content policies, and don't forget Nintendo's poor attempt at a online network. Woof. What's your 12 digit Friend Code, by the way?

Not sure I follow, I'd assumed that console (viz PS4) games were ported to PC or vice versa, this current gen, but handheld games are developed separately (using the same game engine?) So unless we're talking about Super Mario, Sonic the hedgehog or other classic games, I don't see how handhelds would be the lowest denominator?

Some hand held games only have the back end developed separately, a few are ported and tweaked down. For example, a lot of the PSP catalog was PS1 ports. And a lot of the PS Vita titles are PS2/PS3 ports.

And now there is the port scene from Hand Held to Console/PC. Such as Castlevania, Assassin's Creed, the GoW collection.

Lastly with cheap(er) consoles they can sell a lot more units in developing nations which was not possible last gen. This being a vital factor as more consoles are gonna be sold outside the realm of developed nations, certainly in the not so distant future, & so it's sensible to make'em as cheap as possible, though a cut (or two) above the handhelds.

This is always a touchy subject because depending on which side fanboy you talk to, these markets don't matter. Example "Xbox360 is selling poorly in the UAE/South America" "LOL those countries don't matter only USA/UK." Meanwhile the PS3 took 2nd spot from X360 because of these smaller territories. And now PS4 has like a 4:1 lead outside of the US/UK to Xbone but to these people these regions still don't matter.

On the issue of price, of course the lower the cost, the bigger the audience, but that has never been the purpose of technology (or luxury items) from my perpsective. Developing nations are not gonna blow a good portion of their income on getting a PS4 (even if it cost $100) because chances are the PS3 next to it cost $20-30, has 3x-4x the games, easier to find used, and etc. These markets will flourish into a new generation so far into that gen's age that the commonly touted "those markets don't matter" has some bearing when sales break down:
USA/UK - 48%
EU - 32%
Rest of the world - 20%
[Numbers are just examples, but might be close to real).

Like the gens before this one, you focus on the fat cats that will carry you through your boring first year library, the "me's" of the hobby that just have to buy the new consoles day of launch. Trust me, there are enough of people like me to the tune of 2.2 Million PS4+XBones sold on day one! When you cut the price enough you'll get the lions share of the population and by then your console will be profitable (barring you don't shoot yourself in the foot *cough-cough* Blu-Ray *cough* RRoD*), you know the way it was when PS1 launched, and PS2. Consoles they held their worth for a at least half of their life span. These consoles are already obsolete.
 
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Fjodor2001

Diamond Member
Feb 6, 2010
4,108
537
126
I have wondered this, for example most games today only use 1 or 2 cores at most. Games that claim to need 4 cores actually run better on 2 faster cores, so so much for quad core requirements.
There are lots of games that use more than 4 threads.
Therefore how exactly are devs planning to use 8 cores for gaming on consoles? is it not a bad design and a total waste of time, money and resources to have put in 8 weak cores in a PS4?

why not just 3 or 4 cores?
Because 8 weak cores give better performance at lower price and TDP compared to 2-4 high performance cores, if utilized correctly.
 

hawtdawg

Golden Member
Jun 4, 2005
1,223
7
81
If they had gone with fewer, more powerful cores, devs would be able to max the consoles out from the beginning. This will force them to take a few years to figure out how to properly multithread.
 

john5220

Senior member
Mar 27, 2014
551
0
0
^ i see

so there is hope for 8 threaded games in future after all?

Wish DayZ would be one.
 

BSim500

Golden Member
Jun 5, 2013
1,480
216
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There are lots of games that use more than 4 threads.

Because 8 weak cores give better performance at lower price and TDP compared to 2-4 high performance cores, if utilized correctly.
As far as console vs PC performance though, they simply don't in practice. In fact, it takes 8x Jaguar cores just to match the slowest i3 even with perfect +99% threading (and only 6-7 of them are usable in games):-

PS4 & XB1 equivalent Consoles (8C Jaguar @ 1.75GHz):-
7Zip - 10,123 (8T)
Cinebench 11.5 - 0.44 1T / 3.5 (8T)
Handbrake - 122fps (8T)
WinRAR - 555 1T / 3633 (8T)
x264 HD 5.0.1 - 7.4fps (8T)

i3-4130 (2C/4T @ 3.4GHz):-
7Zip = 10,166 (4T)
Cinebench 11.5 = 1.48 1T / 3.47 (4T)
Handbrake = 154.1fps (4T)
WinRAR = 1178 1T / 3902 (4T)
x264 HD 5.0.1 = 7.6fps (4T)

And even then for actual gaming, many heavily threaded console games such as Watch Dogs that are locked to 30fps / 720-900p on consoles "Medium" equivalent setting can run at 40-50fps at 1080p on "High" even on the slowest available i3-4130 on PC's. Jaguar cores are literally 1/3rd of the speed of Haswell's. All the threading in the world isn't going to beat 4x large cores since 8x 0.33 = equivalent of 2.66 cores (hence why they're at parity with i3's even with perfect threading) and haven't a hope in hell of being "better than i5 performance" no matter how they're utilized.
 

BSim500

Golden Member
Jun 5, 2013
1,480
216
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You do realize the 4130's TDP is 54 W and the Jaguar cores are like 20-25 and the 4130 is on a better process?
Sure. My comment was more in response to the "better performance than 4 high performance cores" (which is false) rather than the obvious lower TDP. Intel Avoton's (8-core Atom's) also have half the TDP of "big cores", but they aren't "faster than i5's" either even with 8 threads.

and dedicating one core to backround would cut performance in half.
Not all cores are equal so you wouldn't need one whole core (unless console OS's have become 12x more bloated than PC's, in which case it's kind of ironic that console owners spent years promoting consoles precisely because "they don't have all that stuff in the background like Winblows". :biggrin: