For the record... If Hezbollah attacks Israel again

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EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
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0
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: Doboji
I know I would think the same way I did this time around... pound the crap out of both Hezbollah, and their willing host Lebanon. Only I say go further next time... bomb Tehran and Damascus...

-Max

How about this question: What if Israel attacks Hezbollah again or does something to provoke a Hezbollah response?


Israel just being there allows someone to find a excuse/justfication for Hamas/Hezbollah to initiate something.

One of the excuses by Hezbollah for the last incident was Israel has a bunch of prisoners/terrorists in jail that they hoped initially to trade for the captured soldiers as what had happened previously.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: Doboji
I know I would think the same way I did this time around... pound the crap out of both Hezbollah, and their willing host Lebanon. Only I say go further next time... bomb Tehran and Damascus...

-Max

How about this question: What if Israel attacks Hezbollah again or does something to provoke a Hezbollah response?


Israel just being there allows someone to find a excuse/justfication for Hamas/Hezbollah to initiate something.

One of the excuses by Hezbollah for the last incident was Israel has a bunch of prisoners/terrorists in jail that they hoped initially to trade for the captured soldiers as what had happened previously.

Yeap, I am sure Israel just being there is the reason. It got nothing to do with the thousands of political prisioner in Israel jailed without dual process. It has nothing to do with Israel continue to send soldiers and tanks into Palestinian refugee camps, destroy home, arresting people in the name of fighting terrorism. It has nothing to do with Israel shelling Gaza, killing civilian by the families. It has nothing to do with all the road block all over Palestine killing Palestinian economy.

Yeap, it's all because Israel being there.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
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Originally posted by: Lemon law
Its long been my guess that sooner or later---now that terrorists have long range rockets,
that a small group will set up in some neutral country like Jordan---without the knowledge and concent of that government---and launch hit and run attacks.---with remaining rockets still cached in Lebanon, some hot heads will also peg a few under the noses of international troops.

These will likely be small no name groups acting independently---and the local arab governments will be almost powerless to stop these groups. If Israel then lashes out against local neutral Arab States with massive destruction----the mid-east will not be a very safe place for anyone.---the buffer zone Isreal must have to assure its own safety just got impossibly larger.

Israel is simply going to have to confront the right to return---and quit racheting up the hatreds.

Or the world will have no choice but to do it for Israel---by imposing a settlement.

As we can see----Israel is in denial about it----but anyone who can see the tactics and long term trends---can see this new weapon in the terrorist arsenal as being a new and dangerous development that will force a 58 year old conflict towards a resolution.

But for now---an uneasy peace remains.---but in terrorists workshops all over the world---they will be working on longer range rockets that can be assembled in the field from small kit like pieces. While others worry about how to smuggle them into convient launching distance. Gone will be the days where three thousand will be launced in one month and from one area.---it will likely become five from one place---ten next week from somewhere else.---and deeper into Israel.

There are 4 Arab/Muslim countries that bound Israel + a wannabe leech (Palestinians).

Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Lebanon
1) Jordan has shown that they will not tolerate terrorist setting up in their territory.

2) Egypt has been trying to control access to Gaza and also seems to prevent trouble from their territory.

3) Syria is a proxie to Iran/(ex Iraq) and acts as a sponsor/supporter of Hamas/Hezbollah.
Their military has been shown to be incompetent against Israeli forces; therefore they want to use others to vent their frustrations. Israel will not relinquish the Golan for strategic reasons. Should launching of strikes come from Syria, it will be an justification for Israel to go after the Syria political and military capabilites. Syria pointing the finger at the culprit will not fly after they way they have acted/controlled in Lebanon over the past 20 years.

4) If the UN & Lebanonise army can control the buffer zone, then Lebanon will be out of the picture. should the buffer zone be violated, then the house cleaning will probably start again the way it happened with the PLO/Arafat. Lebanon will suffer, but that is the consequences of the bed that they chose by hooking up with Syria and Hezbollah and the PLO.

5) That leave Gaza /West Bank as the potential problem.
Israel has shown restraint in dealing with this headache, however, actions over this summer has shown that there may be a limit to Israel's patience with this problem child.
The political leadership of the PA will need to step up to the bat and accept responsibility as a government, turning a blind eye or a "we did not know" excuse will not cut it.

 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
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Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: Doboji
I know I would think the same way I did this time around... pound the crap out of both Hezbollah, and their willing host Lebanon. Only I say go further next time... bomb Tehran and Damascus...

-Max

How about this question: What if Israel attacks Hezbollah again or does something to provoke a Hezbollah response?


Israel just being there allows someone to find a excuse/justfication for Hamas/Hezbollah to initiate something.

One of the excuses by Hezbollah for the last incident was Israel has a bunch of prisoners/terrorists in jail that they hoped initially to trade for the captured soldiers as what had happened previously.

Yeap, I am sure Israel just being there is the reason. It got nothing to do with the thousands of political prisioner in Israel jailed without dual process. It has nothing to do with Israel continue to send soldiers and tanks into Palestinian refugee camps, destroy home, arresting people in the name of fighting terrorism. It has nothing to do with Israel shelling Gaza, killing civilian by the families. It has nothing to do with all the road block all over Palestine killing Palestinian economy.

Yeap, it's all because Israel being there.

For every justification that you can come up with, an earlier justification can be found on why Israel did such a thing. And then an earlier justificaiton can be found why the Palestinians did such a thing to cause Israel to act is such a way. It is an endless cycle.

The problem is that people within the Palestinian and Arab camps do not actually want peace; then they would have to confont the realites of actually being responsbile for governing the situation. they are willing to sacrifice the wellfare of the population to pander to their radical base of supporters and followers.

Notice that everytime the tensions calm down, something has been done to trigger another round of action/reaction.

Until the radical peace haters are excised by one way or another, the problem will not go away. Israel would have to isolate the West Bank adn Gaza completely and let them internally turn on each other. Let the Arab sponsors solve the problem; they do not want the Israeli solution.

 

GroundedSailor

Platinum Member
Feb 18, 2001
2,502
0
76
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: GroundedSailor
Originally posted by: EXman
Originally posted by: Aimster
You live in a la la land.

Of course it is easy for you to say those things when you are behind a desk and not the one holding a gun fighting.

Israel cannot bomb Tehran. The U.S will have to do it and I don't think anyone here would want to see the U.S fight a war for Israel. Israel can fight their own damn wars.

Leave U.S out of it.
Israeli aircraft could reach Iran but not return without refueling.

Syria is the pain in the ass for Irsael. Most eveything that Hizbollah and Hamas need is being funneled throiugh there.

Cripple Syria and you cripple the proxies.


Isreal has already bombed Iran in the past. And they'll do it again. F-15 strike eagles anyone? Mabe an F-16?

Israel bombed Iraq in 1981 not Iran.

Israeli fighters can reach Iran, however refueling will be required to get them back.
Either Air-Air or prepositioned fuel stops if they choose not ot or are unable to use Iraq as a fuel depot will be needed. They will not send people on one way missions.

Syria is the main problem. They are a major weapons feed and also a political base for both Hizbollah and Hamas.

Cripple Syria and you put a serious crimp on the proxies.



As a side note, the '81 strike recalled me to active duty and sent me to Israel.

If you really want to stop the routing of arms through Syria the best way is to have a kind of naval blockade. Don't stop the trade (I'm not advocating sanctions), just check every ship going in and out of Syria - like it was with Iraq during desert storm in 1991.

There are a lot of small ships (called coasters) owned by Syria which do not follow the normal rules of trading that merchant ships do. These are the ones that 'fly below the radar' with undocumented cargoes - mostly legitimate stuff - but that is the method of getting arms into Syria and Lebanon.

You see a lot these small ships in the eastern Mediterranean and the Red Sea.


 

Aimster

Lifer
Jan 5, 2003
16,129
2
0
Originally posted by: ericlp
Originally posted by: Aimster
You live in a la la land.

Of course it is easy for you to say those things when you are behind a desk and not the one holding a gun fighting.

Israel cannot bomb Tehran. The U.S will have to do it and I don't think anyone here would want to see the U.S fight a war for Israel. Israel can fight their own damn wars.

Leave U.S out of it.


Yeah leave the Tax Payer out of it too. No more support to israel from the US period. They can fight thier own stupid war. I'm sick and tired of bush getting involved in every little conflict in the world. Shut up and focus on the failure in Iraq and the problems right here in the USA!!!

We need to FIX our own problems first...

We give them money and they use that money to buy U.S weapons which benefit U.S companies.

Might actually benefit the U.S?
 

SamurAchzar

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2006
2,422
3
76
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Its long been my guess that sooner or later---now that terrorists have long range rockets,
that a small group will set up in some neutral country like Jordan---without the knowledge and concent of that government---and launch hit and run attacks.---with remaining rockets still cached in Lebanon, some hot heads will also peg a few under the noses of international troops.

These will likely be small no name groups acting independently---and the local arab governments will be almost powerless to stop these groups. If Israel then lashes out against local neutral Arab States with massive destruction----the mid-east will not be a very safe place for anyone.---the buffer zone Isreal must have to assure its own safety just got impossibly larger.

Israel is simply going to have to confront the right to return---and quit racheting up the hatreds.

Or the world will have no choice but to do it for Israel---by imposing a settlement.

As we can see----Israel is in denial about it----but anyone who can see the tactics and long term trends---can see this new weapon in the terrorist arsenal as being a new and dangerous development that will force a 58 year old conflict towards a resolution.

But for now---an uneasy peace remains.---but in terrorists workshops all over the world---they will be working on longer range rockets that can be assembled in the field from small kit like pieces. While others worry about how to smuggle them into convient launching distance. Gone will be the days where three thousand will be launced in one month and from one area.---it will likely become five from one place---ten next week from somewhere else.---and deeper into Israel.

You keep spattering BS that I have no idea where you got from.

Rockets are just another mean, and not a very effective one - They are not guided, they can't carry large warheads and are easily destroyed with the right technology. The MTHEL system has already successfully destroyed rockets; How long will it take, if Israel sees the deployment of such system as a strategic goal, until it's operational and protecting Israel from rockets? Lets say it goes on in 2010. What's then?




 

Doboji

Diamond Member
May 18, 2001
7,912
0
76
Originally posted by: ericlp
Originally posted by: Aimster
You live in a la la land.

Of course it is easy for you to say those things when you are behind a desk and not the one holding a gun fighting.

Israel cannot bomb Tehran. The U.S will have to do it and I don't think anyone here would want to see the U.S fight a war for Israel. Israel can fight their own damn wars.

Leave U.S out of it.


Yeah leave the Tax Payer out of it too. No more support to israel from the US period. They can fight thier own stupid war. I'm sick and tired of bush getting involved in every little conflict in the world. Shut up and focus on the failure in Iraq and the problems right here in the USA!!!

We need to FIX our own problems first...

So should we stop foreign aid to all countries? or just Israel?

-Max
 

Vertigo0176

Member
Aug 17, 2006
60
0
0
Man, why can't most of the worlds oil be in nice peaceful places instead. I hope the middle east runs out soon, that way we'll never have to bother with anything or anyone there again.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Without massive US taxpayer support, the Israelie IDF will just slowly leak down over time----like a hot air balloon that has lost its propane burner. As neighboring arab oil states can now afford to build up their military with oil revenues.

All the tough talk on this forum is just that---mere inconvienced electrons that won't float a boat or a balloon.

If Bush can pull of a micacle in Iraq---Israel stands a chance long term----if Bush the bungler stays true to form---it will be as Iraq goes---so goes Israel.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Without massive US taxpayer support, the Israelie IDF will just slowly leak down over time----like a hot air balloon that has lost its propane burner. As neighboring arab oil states can now afford to build up their military with oil revenues.

All the tough talk on this forum is just that---mere inconvienced electrons that won't float a boat or a balloon.

If Bush can pull of a micacle in Iraq---Israel stands a chance long term----if Bush the bungler stays true to form---it will be as Iraq goes---so goes Israel.

The US provides about 10% of the military budget for Israel. This notion that its neighbors will suddenly become military giants due to oil revenues is amusing. There is too much corruption and hording of the money from the top for them to bother building an offensive military capability. The most we will see is Iran develop nuke weapons.

Israel was there long before the situation in Iraq and it will be long after.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Yes---good point Genx87,

By all means, count on the ever reliable incompetence of decadent arab leaders and their corruption---in case you had not noticed, your new enemy is the well organized terrorist---who knows how to do long range planning and how to use monies efficently.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: rise
"pounding the crap" out of each other has worked so well so far :roll:

its an ugly situation that won't be resolved by fisticuffs. don't ask me what the solution is (because i don't want to start a flamefest), but this isn't working.

Seriously, just because it didn't work the FIRST 9,000 times it was tried doesn't mean the 9,001st time won't be the charm.

Don't they say that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results?
 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
6,989
0
0
Originally posted by: Aimster
Originally posted by: EXman
Originally posted by: Aimster
You live in a la la land.

Of course it is easy for you to say those things when you are behind a desk and not the one holding a gun fighting.

Israel cannot bomb Tehran. The U.S will have to do it and I don't think anyone here would want to see the U.S fight a war for Israel. Israel can fight their own damn wars.

Leave U.S out of it.


Isreal has already bombed Iran in the past. And they'll do it again. F-15 strike eagles anyone? Mabe an F-16?

When did Israel bomb Iran in the past?

Israel aircraft cannot attack/reach Tehran.

They can with some modifications...
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Yes---good point Genx87,

By all means, count on the ever reliable incompetence of decadent arab leaders and their corruption---in case you had not noticed, your new enemy is the well organized terrorist---who knows how to do long range planning and how to use monies efficently.

You said "arab oil states". Are terrorist organizations suddenly Arab oil states?

 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: rise
"pounding the crap" out of each other has worked so well so far :roll:

its an ugly situation that won't be resolved by fisticuffs. don't ask me what the solution is (because i don't want to start a flamefest), but this isn't working.

Seriously, just because it didn't work the FIRST 9,000 times it was tried doesn't mean the 9,001st time won't be the charm.

Don't they say that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results?

Forced peace hasnt exactly been a model of success either in that part of the world.
 

SamurAchzar

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2006
2,422
3
76
There has to be a decisive winner, without International intervention and criticism.
This winner shall do whatever it takes to secure itself for the future generations.

 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
There has to be a decisive winner, without International intervention and criticism.
This winner shall do whatever it takes to secure itself for the future generations.

Perhaps, but if absolute victory is what it takes to win, I'd say both sides have proven themselves incompetent at achieving it at this point. And I know, I know, Israel could do the job if people would just let them do it...but history and common sense don't really support that theory. Israel can defend itself very well, and pound the crap out of a poorly armed country that offers little resistance just fine...but they can't possibly defeat all their enemies in the Middle East by force alone.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: rise
"pounding the crap" out of each other has worked so well so far :roll:

its an ugly situation that won't be resolved by fisticuffs. don't ask me what the solution is (because i don't want to start a flamefest), but this isn't working.

Seriously, just because it didn't work the FIRST 9,000 times it was tried doesn't mean the 9,001st time won't be the charm.

Don't they say that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results?

Forced peace hasnt exactly been a model of success either in that part of the world.

True. Well I'm all out of ideas, I say we find some alternative to oil and just leave the region alone, let 'em all kill each other...that's all they really seem to want to do.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: rise
"pounding the crap" out of each other has worked so well so far :roll:

its an ugly situation that won't be resolved by fisticuffs. don't ask me what the solution is (because i don't want to start a flamefest), but this isn't working.

Seriously, just because it didn't work the FIRST 9,000 times it was tried doesn't mean the 9,001st time won't be the charm.

Don't they say that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results?

Forced peace hasnt exactly been a model of success either in that part of the world.

True. Well I'm all out of ideas, I say we find some alternative to oil and just leave the region alone, let 'em all kill each other...that's all they really seem to want to do.


I think that may be part of the problem, we dont allow them to kill each other to the point of stability. You see this in Africa as well where two groups fight it out and the world has this sick fascination of making them stop. The result is a constant barrage of low intensity fighting for years and decades where a real war with a clear winner could bring stability to the region within a much smaller timeframe.
 

daniel49

Diamond Member
Jan 8, 2005
4,814
0
71
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: 5150Joker
Originally posted by: Doboji
I know I would think the same way I did this time around... pound the crap out of both Hezbollah, and their willing host Lebanon. Only I say go further next time... bomb Tehran and Damascus...

-Max



I think the UN should do its job and make sure Hezbollah isn't in a position to ever cause Israel any trouble and vice versa. If Hezbollah does carry out attacks against Israel after this, then the UN along with Lebanese forces should disarm Hezbollah once and for all. If by chance Hezbollah is disarmed in the future, then I think Israel should do the right thing and release a lot of prisoners it's been holding for years--especially the ones that haven't had a trial.

I stand in disbelief when seeing a post of yours I 100% agree with. That is what should be done, and what we need to demand be done.

Its a good idea, but
Look at the UN's record it won't happen.
Hezbolla will not disarm and it will not rejoin lebanese society as anything other then a milita.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: rise
"pounding the crap" out of each other has worked so well so far :roll:

its an ugly situation that won't be resolved by fisticuffs. don't ask me what the solution is (because i don't want to start a flamefest), but this isn't working.

Seriously, just because it didn't work the FIRST 9,000 times it was tried doesn't mean the 9,001st time won't be the charm.

Don't they say that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results?

Forced peace hasnt exactly been a model of success either in that part of the world.

True. Well I'm all out of ideas, I say we find some alternative to oil and just leave the region alone, let 'em all kill each other...that's all they really seem to want to do.


I think that may be part of the problem, we dont allow them to kill each other to the point of stability. You see this in Africa as well where two groups fight it out and the world has this sick fascination of making them stop. The result is a constant barrage of low intensity fighting for years and decades where a real war with a clear winner could bring stability to the region within a much smaller timeframe.

But that's the problem, I'm not really convinced that either side has the capability to achieve victory in any meaningful way...I think, left on their own, it will just be a fairly low intensity conflict with flare-ups every once in a while until the end of time.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: rise
"pounding the crap" out of each other has worked so well so far :roll:

its an ugly situation that won't be resolved by fisticuffs. don't ask me what the solution is (because i don't want to start a flamefest), but this isn't working.

Seriously, just because it didn't work the FIRST 9,000 times it was tried doesn't mean the 9,001st time won't be the charm.

Don't they say that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results?

Forced peace hasnt exactly been a model of success either in that part of the world.

True. Well I'm all out of ideas, I say we find some alternative to oil and just leave the region alone, let 'em all kill each other...that's all they really seem to want to do.


I think that may be part of the problem, we dont allow them to kill each other to the point of stability. You see this in Africa as well where two groups fight it out and the world has this sick fascination of making them stop. The result is a constant barrage of low intensity fighting for years and decades where a real war with a clear winner could bring stability to the region within a much smaller timeframe.

But that's the problem, I'm not really convinced that either side has the capability to achieve victory in any meaningful way...I think, left on their own, it will just be a fairly low intensity conflict with flare-ups every once in a while until the end of time.

It is hard to say, if we let them duke it out we can find out. Israel is very restrained for the pressure they are under. If the world let them conduct the war the way they could, it is very concievable they can bring total victory down on the people they are fighting.

This includes knocking out Syria to secure the borders and keep the arms shipments from coming in.

But we havent let that region of the world try such a thing. When things got serious the last time, when Israel was knocking on Egypt and Syria's capitals door, the world stepped in to stop it.





 

Aisengard

Golden Member
Feb 25, 2005
1,558
0
76
Well, GeneX, total victory would occur, but in fighting in the style of the Romans, victory would have to be in the style of the Romans as well. Israel would have to conquer the entire Middle East for there to be lasting peace, and 'total victory', and that's just not possible. There's just not enough manpower. Setting aside all the moral implications, plus the fact that the Middle East isn't exactly isolated in its support groups.

I'm definitely not advocating anything remotely like 'taking over' the Middle East. That's ridiculous. But I think that's what a 'total victory' would look like. Believe you me, I would like nothing more than the Middle East to modernize and adopt the more free reign-style of western cultures, and have individuals be more independent. But no one can make them do it from the outside. We've learned this from Iraq, you can't topple a standing government that had been there for hundreds of years and tell the people to 'go vote'. There's gotta be a third way. Having the internet probably would really help speed up that way. I think that more than half of China is on the internet now, and look at how they're finally booming.

Anyway, the Middle East is just stuck in the Dark Ages, and Israel is the only one in the here and now. Sure, Lebanon was okay, but they had incompetent government and weak military, so they allowed (had no choice, really) to let terrorist groups like Hezbollah to take over. Their culture was there, but the government was not. Now because of that, it's set back decades, with brand new resentment. Doubtless this is what terrorist groups want: they can't have lasting control, they're comprised of mere thousands at the most. All they want is to topple governments and influence their brand of control on people. This is kind of what we have now: Muslim terrorists, who, through their fanatical faith, want to bring about the end times. The way we fight this, along with the not-quite-as-effective conventional means, is to not let them control our way of thinking. They don't give a damn about the 'suffering of their fellow man', whoever believes that is in a right sorry state. Their most powerful tool is endless propaganda, sometimes not even based on any kind of fact. As long as people keep lapping it up, either to help the underdog, or to express their anti-Semitic feelings more easily, or to just plain invite chaos because the world is too damn boring, terrorism will continue to be.

We probably should have ignored all these terrorist things. We've fanned the flames even before Iraq, and thus played right into their hands. Through us, we've caused more destruction than 9/11 ever could live up to. But it's hard to ignore 3000 of your civilians instantly dead, caused by something that defies belief. I don't know what to say. This problem goes way beyond, and is not affected by Israel 'keeping Arabs in poverty', or America relying on oil for just about everything. This can escalate the problem, but is not the root cause. I don't know what is the root cause. Do they do it because they can, because we allow them to? After World War II, who could've predicted the Cold War, and after that, who ever could've predicted this. Interesting question, if we snuff out this threat, what's the next one? I'm gonna go with nanobots devouring spacetime.

EDIT: Sorry, this was kind of a thinking out loud experience. Feel free to ignore whatever babble I've produced.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: rise
"pounding the crap" out of each other has worked so well so far :roll:

its an ugly situation that won't be resolved by fisticuffs. don't ask me what the solution is (because i don't want to start a flamefest), but this isn't working.

Seriously, just because it didn't work the FIRST 9,000 times it was tried doesn't mean the 9,001st time won't be the charm.

Don't they say that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results?

Forced peace hasnt exactly been a model of success either in that part of the world.

True. Well I'm all out of ideas, I say we find some alternative to oil and just leave the region alone, let 'em all kill each other...that's all they really seem to want to do.


I think that may be part of the problem, we dont allow them to kill each other to the point of stability. You see this in Africa as well where two groups fight it out and the world has this sick fascination of making them stop. The result is a constant barrage of low intensity fighting for years and decades where a real war with a clear winner could bring stability to the region within a much smaller timeframe.

But that's the problem, I'm not really convinced that either side has the capability to achieve victory in any meaningful way...I think, left on their own, it will just be a fairly low intensity conflict with flare-ups every once in a while until the end of time.

It is hard to say, if we let them duke it out we can find out. Israel is very restrained for the pressure they are under. If the world let them conduct the war the way they could, it is very concievable they can bring total victory down on the people they are fighting.

This includes knocking out Syria to secure the borders and keep the arms shipments from coming in.

But we havent let that region of the world try such a thing. When things got serious the last time, when Israel was knocking on Egypt and Syria's capitals door, the world stepped in to stop it.

I don't disagree that Israel could probably beat the other major powers in the Middle East in a straight out fight, but I don't think they could maintain lasting victory. An Israeli victory over Syria and Iran would not be like the US victory over Germany and Japan after WWII...the conflict is too deep at this point to allow that kind of resolution. Israel would lack both the ability (and the desire, IMHO) to actually occupy and rebuild their enemies, so they will simply have to settle for knocking them down for a while. In the end, we'll have a few years of peace and another conflict flaring up before we realize it.

The problem with a Middle Eastern peace process that begins with one side beating the tar out of the other side is that I don't think either side (but especially the Muslims) would be content to sit back, admit defeat, and work with the victors to help rebuild their countries into something better...in large part because I don't think the victors (again, especially the Muslims) would WANT to help their enemies out. Rhetoric aside, I don't think an Israeli victory in a large-scale conflict would result in Jews suddenly viewing Muslims as their brothers any more than the Muslims would view the Jews that way. I simply do not think people in that part of the world view their conflict through the same lens as people in other parts of the world do. We used nuclear weapons on Japan and they killed thousands of our soldiers in vicious combat throughout the Pacific, and not only did they accept a constitution that we wrote for them, they quickly became one of our closest allies in Asia. I seriously doubt we would ever see such pragmatic behavior from the various parties in the Middle East when the dust settled.

It may indeed come down to an all out war, but even if it does, it won't work without both sides changing their views of the conflict...