Florida rejects Obama's choo-choo train money.

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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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Why was it offered to FL?

Is it because they are a swing state?

Neither Tampa or Orlando seem the type of city that could use this, nothing's downtown etc, they are both really spread out. Both have big airports, there is already interstate connecting them.

Fern

Earlier in the thread people were saying that interstate is a clusterfuck, that would be a good reason.
 

PeshakJang

Platinum Member
Mar 17, 2010
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Do you have any idea where the 405 goes?

How many people commute several hundred miles to work in LA? Building a HSR to alleviate congestion in a large city would be equivalent of building an airport to do the same.
 

Fear No Evil

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2008
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Earlier in the thread people were saying that interstate is a clusterfuck, that would be a good reason.

Its NOT a clusterfuck. Its perfectly FINE for 99% of it. The problem is like with ANY city, once you hit the 'downtown' area there is limited space and lots of people. It gets congested.. But how is a train going from Orlando to Tampa going to help the 99% of those cars who are going from work in Orlando to home in the burbs or work in Tampa to home in the burbs? Its NOT. How many people work in Orlando and live in Tampa and vice versa? I'd guess about 4 people.
 

Fear No Evil

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2008
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My understanding is that the builders/managers of the trains would cover any losses and it would cost the taxpayers $0 dollars. The route from Tampa to Orlando would be a loss leader but the developer of the Tampa-Orlando route would get first shot @ Orlando-Miami route. The idea is to have a company prove the tech in Fl so they can sell it to other places in the country.

Lets say for the sake of argument that is true. I HIGHLY doubt it but lets just say it is. Lets say the route between Tampa and Orlando loses 100 million a year. You think that company is going to eat that cost? No, they are going to shut it down. And then who is going to come in and have to pick up the costs because we can't have all these trains and tracks just sitting there? Thats right, taxpayers.

I know a lot of people who live in Orlando and Tampa. Those in Orlando RARELY come to Tampa and vice versa. And people in both those cities almost NEVER go to Miami. I don't have any good friends in Miami but I would suspect that its pretty rare that anyone from there goes to Orlando or Tampa.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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Meh. I live just outside of Tampa now and much of my wife's and my families live in Orlando so we make the drive frequently on I-4. We've probably made the round trip @ 15 times in the last 3 months. The only bad traffic areas are around the Disney area in Orlando and once you get past I-275 moving towards Tampa. HSR isn't going to do crap to alleviate the local downtown traffic in either Tampa or Orlando and I-4 isn't bad at all between those two urban centers (except for some reason there's alway an idiot having a wreck near MacIntosh Rd outside of Tampa causing major backups) so I don't have any confidence that an HSR is necessary. It's doubtful that it would have anywhere near the ridership to keep it afloat either.

The only place I could see an HSR or light rail viable is between the Orlando Airport and Disney. That might do wonders to keep the tourists from taking to the road and would be a godsend.
 

brandonbull

Diamond Member
May 3, 2005
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Lets say for the sake of argument that is true. I HIGHLY doubt it but lets just say it is. Lets say the route between Tampa and Orlando loses 100 million a year. You think that company is going to eat that cost? No, they are going to shut it down. And then who is going to come in and have to pick up the costs because we can't have all these trains and tracks just sitting there? Thats right, taxpayers.

I know a lot of people who live in Orlando and Tampa. Those in Orlando RARELY come to Tampa and vice versa. And people in both those cities almost NEVER go to Miami. I don't have any good friends in Miami but I would suspect that its pretty rare that anyone from there goes to Orlando or Tampa.

I think the route is too short and would have too many stops in between to be useful as HSR. It would great if there was some type of commuter service between tampa and orlando. I also think it would open the cities more and allow more employment opportunities and growth. If I didn't have to drive 70 miles each way and deal with traffic, I would consider working in Orlando and visiting more.
 

RavenSEAL

Diamond Member
Jan 4, 2010
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Rick Scott is a pathetic excuse for a governor. This guy pays 80m to get to the top and starts derailing everything charlie crist did.

This rail system is beyond just moving people from tampa to orlando, there are other 2 phases of it. Too many jobs lost and now this state is stuck with the same pathetic transportational infrastucture it's had since the 1950s.

Private investment hadn't even been finalized and this moron goes off and kills the plan. Another pathetic attempt by republicans to further fuel the joke the american bipartisan system is.

Can't wait to GTFO out this state.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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Rick Scott is a pathetic excuse for a governor. This guy pays 80m to get to the top and starts derailing everything charlie crist did.

This rail system is beyond just moving people from tampa to orlando, there are other 2 phases of it. Too many jobs lost and now this state is stuck with the same pathetic transportational infrastucture it's had since the 1950s.

Private investment hadn't even been finalized and this moron goes off and kills the plan. Another pathetic attempt by republicans to further fuel the joke the american bipartisan system is.

Can't wait to GTFO out this state.
The ultimate question is - Would this system actually be viable in the long run? In the short run it would have created a bunch of jobs and brought money into the state. However, is having a myopic pov and disregarding the long term the proper choice?
 

sportage

Lifer
Feb 1, 2008
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Obama is not talking "choo choo", but I’m not surprised people (the op) think choo choo when they hear of trains in this country of ours. It's better known as HIGH SPEED RAIL. Something you'd have to visit Japan to actually see in action. Or maybe China.
No one wants a.. so called.. "choo choo". No one is proposing a "choo choo".
WOW... just see how retarded we have become in the USA...! Unbelievable!
Thank God we already have freeways and indoor crappers. If we didn’t, republicans would
be all against those too. Just insane.
 

novasatori

Diamond Member
Feb 27, 2003
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hey guys everything local and federal government do should be profitable or break even

what a waste of money
 

Linflas

Lifer
Jan 30, 2001
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Obama is not talking "choo choo", but I’m not surprised people (the op) think choo choo when they hear of trains in this country of ours. It's better known as HIGH SPEED RAIL. Something you'd have to visit Japan to actually see in action. Or maybe China.
No one wants a.. so called.. "choo choo". No one is proposing a "choo choo".
WOW... just see how retarded we have become in the USA...! Unbelievable!
Thank God we already have freeways and indoor crappers. If we didn’t, republicans would
be all against those too. Just insane.

Is it your contention that the only reason we have indoor plumbing is because our benevolent masters in Washington went forth and decreed that house throughout the realm would now be equiped with these modern marvels? As for freeways they were built and financed at a time when we were not running unsustainable deficits as far as your great grandchildren can see.
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
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Yet you provided no links and tried to argue for 3 pages about something I was not even talking about. Get a clue.

Doesn't matter - you'd just run away from any well thought out, well supported counter argument anyway :awe:

hey guys everything local and federal government do should be profitable or break even

I don't agree with this at all. There are services that could run at a loss that can bring great indirect benefits/savings. They need to be well thought out though and I am not sure the current HSR proposals are always as well thought out as it should be
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
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Is it your contention that the only reason we have indoor plumbing is because our benevolent masters in Washington went forth and decreed that house throughout the realm would now be equiped with these modern marvels? As for freeways they were built and financed at a time when we were not running unsustainable deficits as far as your great grandchildren can see.
You know of course, that none of what you said makes any difference to him whatsoever, right?

The left is in love with the idea of HS trains. It's little more than jealousy because other nations have them and we don't. (Insert pouty lip here.) Whether they're practical, whether they're affordable, whether they'll be self-sufficient or a burden on the government (that's us) or whether they'll even be used is immaterial.

They just love them!
 

RavenSEAL

Diamond Member
Jan 4, 2010
8,661
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The ultimate question is - Would this system actually be viable in the long run? In the short run it would have created a bunch of jobs and brought money into the state. However, is having a myopic pov and disregarding the long term the proper choice?
It goes beyond just creating construction jobs. When you connect the 4 largest metropolitan centers in the state, something is bound to happen, and that something, is creating jobs and maximizing the overall business efficiency of state-wide economy. Not only for the residents of the state, but even international visitors. That's why very few people to go just specifig countries in europe, the usually go to several when they take trips, everything is a couple of hours away.

Driving to miami is 5 hours, going by train, approximately 1 1/2-2 hours at most. Wouldn't you be more likely to travel down to miami if you were in orlando or tampa? or up to jacksonville? If all you had to do was take a train and arrive w/o any hassle.
 

PeshakJang

Platinum Member
Mar 17, 2010
2,276
0
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Doesn't matter - you'd just run away from any well thought out, well supported counter argument anyway :awe:

Which is what happened anyway :D It became the equivalent of me arguing that 1+1 = 2 and here are the documents to prove it, and he'd scream nananana and claim that it really equals 6, while saying that I didn't provide any proof. The kicker was when I posted something that disproved everything he was arguing, and he took credit for it :D
 

Axon

Platinum Member
Sep 25, 2003
2,541
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Is it your contention that the only reason we have indoor plumbing is because our benevolent masters in Washington went forth and decreed that house throughout the realm would now be equiped with these modern marvels? As for freeways they were built and financed at a time when we were not running unsustainable deficits as far as your great grandchildren can see.

His suggestion is that partisan politics are so acute these days that no idea from the "other side" is ever viable. He's onto something, sadly. This is true of both sides of the aisle.
 

Fear No Evil

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2008
5,922
0
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Obama is not talking "choo choo", but I’m not surprised people (the op) think choo choo when they hear of trains in this country of ours. It's better known as HIGH SPEED RAIL. Something you'd have to visit Japan to actually see in action. Or maybe China.
No one wants a.. so called.. "choo choo". No one is proposing a "choo choo".
WOW... just see how retarded we have become in the USA...! Unbelievable!
Thank God we already have freeways and indoor crappers. If we didn’t, republicans would
be all against those too. Just insane.

Its 85 miles between Tampa and Orlando. How fast do you think the train is going to go? Either it won't have any stops and will be worthless, or they will have say 10 stops and it will only get up to about 75mph before the next stop anyway. The same as all the cars on the freeway! Who won't have to stop every 8 miles!

So yes, it will be a CHOO-CHOO. I also don't know if you've ever visited Orland or Tampa, but once you get outside the city its quite open and very few people density wise. Its NOTHING like China or Japan. Plus, people in Orlando and Tampa RARELY travel between the cities and virtually NOBODY works in one and commutes to the other.

There is ~3 million people in the Tampa area and ~2 million in the Orlando area. How is that even remotely close to Japan? Florida has ~18 million residents and Japan about ~130 million. Florida is about half the size of Japan. Do the math. The population density is nowhere near Japan.
 

IBMer

Golden Member
Jul 7, 2000
1,137
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Its NOT a clusterfuck. Its perfectly FINE for 99% of it. The problem is like with ANY city, once you hit the 'downtown' area there is limited space and lots of people. It gets congested.. But how is a train going from Orlando to Tampa going to help the 99% of those cars who are going from work in Orlando to home in the burbs or work in Tampa to home in the burbs? Its NOT. How many people work in Orlando and live in Tampa and vice versa? I'd guess about 4 people.

You obviously have never driven I-4 in the morning or evening. This is completely not true. It is bottleneck congested traffic in the morning and evening during normal commute times. Not saying a train will fix this, and not saying it won't fix it either. You just have no clue or you are blatantly lying about this traffic.

You are probably one of the people who said we didn't need the over pass for the cross-town expressway too, and it has helped tremendously.

Its 85 miles between Tampa and Orlando. How fast do you think the train is going to go? Either it won't have any stops and will be worthless, or they will have say 10 stops and it will only get up to about 75mph before the next stop anyway. The same as all the cars on the freeway! Who won't have to stop every 8 miles!

If people were able to drive 75 miles an hour on the highway there wouldn't be any traffic problems. During rush hour the average MPH is 40-45mph,
 
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Jadow

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2003
5,962
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and the passenger cost of these trains is ridiculous.

When Wisconsin went through their stupid obamatrain saga, they touted that a 1 way ticket between Milwaukee and Madison would only be $13.

umm ok.

I have a family of 4, round trip drive + having my car in town = about $15 in gas.

Obama choo choo, $104 dollars + taxi or bus fair. Also there is NO time saved, that drive is about 55 minutes each way, no slower than the train.