Florida High School Shooting

[Perknose]

If the anti-vaxxer movement grows I'm thinking their casualty count will quite surpass that of mass shootings.

Too soon.

Why must you demonize the right of all Americans to make their own medical decisions regardless of the documented harm those decisions cause totally innocent others, because FREEDOM!

If you enact so-called "common sense" vaccination control laws folks will simply find other ways to harm their fellow citizens. Unvaccinated carriers don't kill the most susceptible elderly or young, the disease does. Please stop demonizing the unvaccinated!

Clearly, there's just no effective way to address this problem, NONE!

Also, bath mats.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Well in all fairness you don't need to own a firearm to be shot by one. (although it does make it more likely!) This issue affects everyone whether they own a gun or not. It would be nice if people would attempt to discuss the merits of gun rights instead of demanding to know why we don't just demolish densely populated cities instead.

And reasonable ones are perfectly willing to discuss it with reasonable people as we are now. Unreasonable ones aren't willing to discuss with reasonable people, either because they demand that guns be met with more guns, or they demand that all guns be gone and anyone refusing be shot, or something stupid like that.

I think it would be very difficult to look at a substance we once banned in its entirety until it backfired on us and now heavily tax and regulate and conclude it is something we as a society 'completely ignore'. It's one of those harmful substances we tried as a society to address and failed. I don't think that's a good reason to give up on other things though.

The major issue that I have is this: If the concern is for the loss of human life (specifically young human life, not cancer that gets you in your 80's), there's more valuable targets than firearms. Twitter ablaze, talking heads on the news, family emails, facebook hashcrap, etc over a statistically minor event (as horrific as it was) with barely an acknowledgement of child abuses, child lives lost to drunk driving, hell, as I posted a bit earlier, child lives lost to food allergens. If one insists that the time and effort on firearm debate is more valuable than the time and effort spent on any of a number of greater potential life-threatening events that can befall a person, I cannot help but feel it's an agenda item rather than genuine concern over the lives of those individuals.

If we were discussing the lives lost to gun violence each year compared to say, the lives lost to train accidents each year... yeah, there's a friggin problem there, and we can address something that's destroying the majority of lives of US citizens. But when we've got some 7x as many deaths due to alcohol (~88k/yr vs ~13k, not counting suicides. ~33k counting suicides), and 37x as many due to tobacco, I have a very hard time carrying the flag with the 'ban the guns' crowd. It just feels... illogical.

I know, I know, I'm bringing up everything but guns yet again, but I cannot help it. I, personally, feel far more threatened by a drunk driver than I do by a madman with a gun, because I understand that the odds of dying to a drunk driver are far higher. The response to gun violence is vastly disproportionate to its effects on us. Hell, where was the outrage concerning gun violence when it was primarily gang related back in the 60's-80's? I don't want to do a racial callout, but it smells a lot like our opioid epidemic.

I think this is a misreading of the issue here. People definitely care about gun control but you're right that for most people this isn't their primary thing. For a relatively small group of gun rights supporters though, this is the ONLY thing. They are organized, well funded, and very active. This is why gun control measures that routinely poll in the 80's and 90's for support go nowhere. I'm sure that plenty of people care about gun control more than they care about other things that we routinely give up personal liberties for, but those other liberties don't have a fanatical support base like gun rights do.

Agreed, there's a few organizations like the NRA that are absolutely despicable in their tactics, and level of funding. If we put the lobbying money they alone spent on increasing the general well-being of our poorest, we'd probably affect greater change on lives and livelihood than any gun control measures would.

 

[glenn1]

Funny how conservatives value choice over fear, except when it comes to women's reproductive rights.

Seems like once again, the feels, the religious sensitivities of conservatives, apparently are more important than the lives of their fellow citizens. So what we're often talking preventable diseases like measles, so what kids are being gunned down with assault rifles in school - the "pro-life" crowd must be accommodated no matter what. Anything less is socialism, tyranny, something something...

I'd agree with you on conservatives and abortion. As a libertarian I generally oppose TRAP laws as a bad idea and don't think the government needs to be involved in abortion at all. Ultimately though since that's probably a utopian ideal (same for firearms) subjects like these are something that for practical reasons should be decided at the lowest possibly level instead of the federal or state level so that at the very least local voters have the say on it and can change it easily if desired.

 

[Bird222]

And reasonable ones are perfectly willing to discuss it with reasonable people as we are now. Unreasonable ones aren't willing to discuss with reasonable people, either because they demand that guns be met with more guns, or they demand that all guns be gone and anyone refusing be shot, or something stupid like that.

The major issue that I have is this: If the concern is for the loss of human life (specifically young human life, not cancer that gets you in your 80's), there's more valuable targets than firearms. Twitter ablaze, talking heads on the news, family emails, facebook hashcrap, etc over a statistically minor event (as horrific as it was) with barely an acknowledgement of child abuses, child lives lost to drunk driving, hell, as I posted a bit earlier, child lives lost to food allergens. If one insists that the time and effort on firearm debate is more valuable than the time and effort spent on any of a number of greater potential life-threatening events that can befall a person, I cannot help but feel it's an agenda item rather than genuine concern over the lives of those individuals.

If we were discussing the lives lost to gun violence each year compared to say, the lives lost to train accidents each year... yeah, there's a friggin problem there, and we can address something that's destroying the majority of lives of US citizens. But when we've got some 7x as many deaths due to alcohol (~88k/yr vs ~13k, not counting suicides. ~33k counting suicides), and 37x as many due to tobacco, I have a very hard time carrying the flag with the 'ban the guns' crowd. It just feels... illogical.

I know, I know, I'm bringing up everything but guns yet again, but I cannot help it. I, personally, feel far more threatened by a drunk driver than I do by a madman with a gun, because I understand that the odds of dying to a drunk driver are far higher. The response to gun violence is vastly disproportionate to its effects on us. Hell, where was the outrage concerning gun violence when it was primarily gang related back in the 60's-80's? I don't want to do a racial callout, but it smells a lot like our opioid epidemic.


Agreed, there's a few organizations like the NRA that are absolutely despicable in their tactics, and level of funding. If we put the lobbying money they alone spent on increasing the general well-being of our poorest, we'd probably affect greater change on lives and livelihood than any gun control measures would.

Yep.

 

[HomerJS]

Wow. Gov. Scott representative just went out to those crowd of kids he is "too busy" to meet with them.

That ain't gonna go over well. Scott is a big pussy.

 

[imported_tajmahal]

Wow. Gov. Scott representative just went out to those crowd of kids he is "too busy" to meet with them.

That ain't gonna go over well. Scott is a big pussy.

Why would he meet with them? It's a no win proposition. Instead he can find a list of pro-gun students at schools and invite them to a photo op and meeting at a later date.

 

[HomerJS]

Why would he meet with them? It's a no win proposition. Instead he can find a list of pro-gun students at schools and invite them to a photo op and meeting at a later date.

As a public servant you are obligated to meet with constituents if they agree with you or not. Meeting with people who will only kiss your ass is a Trump move.

Looks like Scott changed his mind. He called media and said he will meet with small groups for 20 min each starting at 5p.

 

[imported_tajmahal]

As a public servant you are obligated to meet with constituents if they agree with you or not. Meeting with people who will only kiss your ass is a Trump move.

Looks like Scott changed his mind. He called media and said he will meet with small groups for 20 min each starting at 5p.

Bullshit, he's under no obligation to meet with constituents on their demand at a place and time they choose. Probably has more control on who it is.

Have you ever had an ugly break up with a girl and then agreed to meet her father and brothers out back?

 

[HomerJS]

Bullshit, he's under no obligation to meet with constituents on their demand at a place and time they choose. Probably has more control on who it is.

Have you ever had an ugly break up with a girl and then agreed to meet her father and brothers out back?

Any good Governor of a state would under these circumstances. You just want him to have a good photo op.

Those kids were not there to boil a rabbit but to demand action. They said they are willing to give Scott a chance he should take them at their word. Scott created the environment that allowed a mentally ill 18 year old to walk into a gun store and but an AR-15.

 

[WackyDan]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opin...istics-stretching-truth-fox-column/349380002/

Interesting when a main stream media org actually doesn't prop up the hysteria.

Just to be clear... One mass school shooting is too many, but they aren't happening as often to scale like people are imagining they are.

 

[Sunburn74]

Guys, society is able to deal with multiple problems at once.

Some problems are not as big a deal but are solvable with simple steps. Others are a big deal but hard to solve. Regardless, saying there were bigger problems out there isn't really a valid point for addressing this long-standing issue.

Addressing gun safety issues is easy. Such measures are just unpopular in some segments of the population. But it's not something technically difficult.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Guys, society is able to deal with multiple problems at once.

Some problems are not as big a deal but are solvable with simple steps. Others are a big deal but hard to solve. Regardless, saying there were bigger problems out there isn't really a valid point for addressing this long-standing issue. If that were the case, almost nothing being done anywhere in politics should be occurring.

It's interesting you couch it this way, considering that outlawing guns is borderline impossible in our political climate (whether warranted or not). If the 'simple problems' are what we should be aiming for, why on earth are firearms, which are protected by 2A (at least arguably enough to tie up any legislation for years), considered the 'low hanging fruit' that is being focused on?

 

[jpeyton]

 

[Puffnstuff]

Florida students are engaged in a mass walkout right now and I say good for you!

 

[jackstar7]

It's interesting you couch it this way, considering that outlawing guns is borderline impossible in our political climate (whether warranted or not). If the 'simple problems' are what we should be aiming for, why on earth are firearms, which are protected by 2A (at least arguably enough to tie up any legislation for years), considered the 'low hanging fruit' that is being focused on?

Maybe he edited while you wrote this, but you left out a key point of his post.

 

[IronWing]

Florida students are engaged in a mass walkout right now and I say good for you!

One of my coworkers says that today the kids walked out of the HS she graduated from in Chicago.

 

[Sunburn74]

It's interesting you couch it this way, considering that outlawing guns is borderline impossible in our political climate (whether warranted or not). If the 'simple problems' are what we should be aiming for, why on earth are firearms, which are protected by 2A (at least arguably enough to tie up any legislation for years), considered the 'low hanging fruit' that is being focused on?

I said achieving a state of minimal mass killings is a relatively easy thing to do if you can get past the unpopularity. If we lived in a monarchy for example, the problem could be solved overnight. But we don't. The basic point is that we shouldn't talk about it like it's curing cancer or achieving nuclear fusion or things like that which are legitimately hard regardless of how much resources we put into them. Australia overnight took care of their issue. If you talk about gun control as if it's impossible then it will be. Gun control is unpopular (with certain segments of the population). It's not however hard or impossible. I would liken gun control to our healthcare issues (again not hard to solve but many want to maintain the status quo because they benefit from it).

Heck a few tax laws, some screening and licensing procedures and etc would get it done. The issue is not the difficulty of implementing the change but rather the difficulty of moving people from the status quo.

 

[realibrad]

I said achieving a state of minimal mass killings is a relatively easy thing to do if you can get past the unpopularity. If we lived in a monarchy for example, the problem could be solved overnight. But we don't. The basic point is that we shouldn't talk about it like it's curing cancer or achieving nuclear fusion or things like that which are legitimately hard regardless of how much resources we put into them. Australia overnight took care of their issue. If you talk about gun control as if it's impossible then it will be. Gun control is unpopular (with certain segments of the population). It's not however hard or impossible.

Heck a few tax laws, some screening and licensing procedures and etc would get it done. The issue is not the difficulty of implementing the change but rather the difficulty of moving people from the status quo.

Australia has a very different culture. Most were willing to get rid of guns, and there were far less guns to get rid of. It was far easier for Australia to do this than it would be here. Not impossible, but extremely difficult.

 

[momeNt]

Here's an interesting thought.

How many of the students engaging in the walk-out for gun control are part of the groups that in a sense create awkward, lonely, ostracized individuals that later on become school shooters.

Are they engaging in walk-outs against bullying, and pro-inclusiveness?

They are looking for adults to solve their problems, but I think a lot of these problems come from within.

Not at all being sympathetic towards Cruz, but I think the students are creating a culture of ostracizing or bullying kids they deem as weird and that is not a healthy environment for children, especially young boys, to grow up in.

But no, let's march on guns, trolling and bullying be damned.

Was Cruz a product of his early developmental environment or a product of a weapon he purchased at 18, 1 year prior to the shooting?

 

[boomerang]

Florida students are engaged in a mass walkout right now and I say good for you!

I'm out in front of the school selling Tide Pods on the cheap and I am cleaning up! They can't get enough of them!

 

[jackstar7]

Australia has a very different culture. Most were willing to get rid of guns, and there were far less guns to get rid of. It was far easier for Australia to do this than it would be here. Not impossible, but extremely difficult.

Do you think we should do the difficult thing? Or no?

 

[soundforbjt]

I'm out in front of the school selling Tide Pods on the cheap and I am cleaning up! They can't get enough of them!

I’m sure you provide a demonstration on how good they are.

 

[realibrad]

Do you think we should do the difficult thing? Or no?

I think we should do many difficult things. Are you asking if I think we should ban guns completely or even if we could not, would I want to? Or are you asking something else?

 

[ivwshane]

I'm out in front of the school selling Tide Pods on the cheap and I am cleaning up! They can't get enough of them!

I believe you too since you also like to sling your garbage on everyone.

 

[boomerang]

I’m sure you provide a demonstration on how good they are.

No need whatsoever. These are some really bright kids.