Florida High School Shooting

[Malditor]

Wrong.

He's not entirely wrong, mental illness and lack of proper investigation into reports and tips are very real causes of why these things are happening. When was the last time an attack like this happened that we didn't find out later that the authorities had been tipped off before the attack, or that someone saw something suspicious but didn't do anything about it?

 

[jackstar7]

So I have to assume that people desperate to keep their guns are just trying to keep peace and quiet in their homes.

https://www.jhsph.edu/research/cent...policy-and-research/publications/IPV_Guns.pdf

According to federal data collected from police departments, in 2005 approximately 40% of female homicide victims ages 15 –50 were killed by either a current or former intimate partner.
In over half (55%) of these cases, the perpetrator used a gun. Among male victims 15–50 years of age, 2% were killed by either a current or former intimate partner.
About 37% of the male intimate partner homicides involved a gun.
Women are a greater danger of being killed by a current or former intimate partner than more than twice as many women are killed by a husband or intimate acquaintance than are killed by a
stranger using a gun, a knife, or any other means.

Compared to homes without guns, the presence of guns in the home is associated with a 3-fold increased homicide risk within the home. The risk connected to gun ownership increases to 8-fold when the offender is an intimate partner or relative of the victim and is 20 times higher when previous domestic violence exists.

It makes sense that people who can't earn respect need fear to keep things under control.

 

[mooncancook]

Trump has a solution to stop school shootings: build a wall around schools

 

[jackstar7]

Feel free to amend the constitution to ban guns the way we did for slaves.

Oh, it's coming.

 

[interchange]

He's not entirely wrong, mental illness and lack of proper investigation into reports and tips are very real causes of why these things are happening. When was the last time an attack like this happened that we didn't find out later that the authorities had been tipped off before the attack, or that someone saw something suspicious but didn't do anything about it?

I am not saying mass shooters are mentally stable. I am saying that their mental instability is not representative of mental illness as a class. I am saying that there is no evidence that banning guns for people diagnosed with mental illness will be more effective at stopping mass shootings than banning guns for the same number of people chosen at random.

If a mental health provider receives information that a person is fantasizing about commission of mass violence and has access of means to do so, that is appropriate information for an intervention. But the sentence is even better if you simply exchange the words "mental health provider" with "any person".

I can tell you, as a mental health provider, I have had a few patients disclose to me that they have been dishonest in their treatment or avoided seeking help due to fear of being reported to have their right to firearms taken away. One time, that came from a person who neither owned guns nor planned to do so. The threat of this rights restriction has caused harmed to people. The benefit of this threat is both unproven and unlikely.

Certainly we need to do better as a society to recognize, diagnose, and treat mental illness. Doing so probably would reduce mass shootings. But that should not be the aim.

 

[Jaskalas]

https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/fbi-statement-on-the-shooting-in-parkland-florida

February 16, 2018
FBI Statement on the Shooting in Parkland, Florida
On January 5, 2018, a person close to Nikolas Cruz contacted the FBI’s Public Access Line (PAL) tipline to report concerns about him. The caller provided information about Cruz’s gun ownership, desire to kill people, erratic behavior, and disturbing social media posts, as well as the potential of him conducting a school shooting.

I can picture Inforwars now....
FBI didn't turn him in... cause they were in on it! They recruited him!! FALSE FLAG FALSE FLAG!!!!
Buy your anti-gov mind control vitamins here, with a free pack of tin foil hats!!!!!!@!@!@!@!@!!!

 

[soundforbjt]

When was the last time an attack like this happened that we didn't find out later that the authorities had been tipped off before the attack, or that someone saw something suspicious but didn't do anything about it?

Las Vegas shooter.

 

[glenn1]

Oh, it's coming.

Cool, I'll brew some tea while you're working on that.


image removed
Please don't.
admin allisolm

 

[Puffnstuff]

that word style.
so its all about looks?

Oooh they are so scary...save me hello kitty.

 

[Malditor]

I am not saying mass shooters are mentally stable. I am saying that their mental instability is not representative of mental illness as a class. I am saying that there is no evidence that banning guns for people diagnosed with mental illness will be more effective at stopping mass shootings than banning guns for the same number of people chosen at random.

If a mental health provider receives information that a person is fantasizing about commission of mass violence and has access of means to do so, that is appropriate information for an intervention. But the sentence is even better if you simply exchange the words "mental health provider" with "any person".

I can tell you, as a mental health provider, I have had a few patients disclose to me that they have been dishonest in their treatment or avoided seeking help due to fear of being reported to have their right to firearms taken away. One time, that came from a person who neither owned guns nor planned to do so. The threat of this rights restriction has caused harmed to people. The benefit of this threat is both unproven and unlikely.

Certainly we need to do better as a society to recognize, diagnose, and treat mental illness. Doing so probably would reduce mass shootings. But that should not be the aim.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating that mental illness in and of itself is the sole root cause of these attack, just that it is one of the factors. We just need to get better at identifying the root causes so that we can better address and avoid these situations. I'm not in favor of blanket rights restrictions at all, I apologize if you got that impression from my post.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Certainly we need to do better as a society to recognize, diagnose, and treat mental illness. Doing so probably would reduce mass shootings. But that should not be the aim.

Would you, personally, feel that reducing/eliminating violent behavior as a whole would be a noble goal to expand those things you listed (recognition, diagnosis, and treatment)?

 

[Jaskalas]

Las Vegas shooter.

Or more recently...
The Texas Church shooter who, if the proper paperwork was filed, should never have been allowed near a gun.

 

[Homerboy]

Has anyone noticed that kids today seem very angry? Especially white males?

Not all of course. Just a small group. They seem very very angry which is why we are seeing these shootings.

Just read an article this morning on this. That (most) these events are by young white males and that seems to be a pattern. The article wasn't speculating at reasons/causes - just bringing up the conversation.

And Christ... I hate to admit this.... but Tucker Carlson is supposedly on the case as well. A right-side-of-the-fence friend of mine was just telling me this morning that he was watching Tucker and he brought up this very point and was going to have some multi-part special coverage on it. I might just have to break down and watch it.

 

[interchange]

Would you, personally, feel that reducing/eliminating violent behavior as a whole would be a noble goal to expand those things you listed (recognition, diagnosis, and treatment)?

Noble? Yes. Realistic? No.

 

[HomerJS]

The counter-argument from the ACLU is (as long as 2A stands) why should someone with an eating disorder not be allowed to own a gun?

We need both better mental health logistics AND actual gov't funded studies into gun violence.

15 minutes with a trained professional could differentiate a tendency towards violence vs someone who eats too much pizza. Maybe a psychiatric exam would be in order before issuing a gun license

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Noble? Yes. Realistic? No.

Why not realistically?

I ask this because I'm genuinely curious if we, as a species, would be capable of establishing as much of a dominance in the field of science of cognition and behavior as we do in things like particle physics and astronomy.

 

[Malditor]

Las Vegas shooter.

I thought that something came out that should have been a red flag on that one too. But even if not, the if only 1 of shootings didn't have red flags that should have been caught early it seems like a great place to start.

Or more recently...
The Texas Church shooter who, if the proper paperwork was filed, should never have been allowed near a gun.

That's kind of my point though, that's one that should have easily been prevented due to something that happened before.

 

[interchange]

Why not realistically?

I ask this because I'm genuinely curious if we, as a species, would be capable of establishing as much of a dominance in the field of science of cognition and behavior as we do in things like particle physics and astronomy.

There is possibility to make interventions on the system level that heavily intersect with mental health treatment, e.g. mental health court and structured programs with large degree of social intervention. Psychiatric care and medications alone have very little evidence of efficacy.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

There is possibility to make interventions on the system level that heavily intersect with mental health treatment, e.g. mental health court and structured programs with large degree of social intervention. Psychiatric care and medications alone have very little evidence of efficacy.

Yeah, I'm definitely not talking about generalized care/medication. Military-style mental health treatment is more my bag, where they get all nice and cozy in the middle of your life and make sure you're not about to steal a tank and start rolling over civilians.

 

[glenn1]

15 minutes with a trained professional could differentiate a tendency towards violence vs someone who eats too much pizza. Maybe a psychiatric exam would be in order before issuing a gun license

Sure, why not an exam for driving a car or operating construction equipment as well? I understand it's scary that something you don't understand and don't particularly like could be used to harm you but guns aren't somehow unique in that. Again why I understand the concern it should considered in terms of its actual probability and not just its net impact, your risk of dying via mass shooting is 1 in 110,154 — about the same chance of dying from a dog attack or legal execution (the above using the numbers calculated by the Washington Post for mass shootings). Thus the economic burden of such widespread psychiatric exams doesn't seem justified for the potential benefit. If anything you'd probably be better off spending that exam money on random checks since there's no evidence or reason why mental illness would be more prevalent in the population of those going through legal channels to own a gun than it would be in the general population at large.

 

[interchange]

Yeah, I'm definitely not talking about generalized care/medication. Military-style mental health treatment is more my bag, where they get all nice and cozy in the middle of your life and make sure you're not about to steal a tank and start rolling over civilians.

It's OK. I know you're approaching things reasonably. The problem is, to me, by labeling things a mental illness problem it's really passing the buck to mental health providers. We can be part of things, but the important solutions involving us are at the system level which is under the direction of the government. If it is not under government direction, it will never happen because no one else has incentive to pay for it to happen.

 

[Dulanic]

Sure, why not an exam for driving a car or operating construction equipment as well?

Um, there already is. It's called your license exam. I know it varies state to state but in pretty much every state I have lived in (half dozen) they had one.

 

[Sunburn74]

Thus the economic burden of such widespread psychiatric exams doesn't seem justified for the potential benefit.

Beg to differ. Such an exam can easily be done in a primary care office as well as a specialty office. It doesn't take very long at all and most primary care visits depending on your insurance plan can range from 5 to 50 dollars.

In fact you can even do it another way: require the person with the gun or gun license have to get either
a) 3 letters of recommendation citing his mental stability and fitness from at friends and family members (at least one friend and one blood relative), and put legal liability on anyone who signs away these letters or
b) a documented formal in-person police interview to determine fitness to carry a weapon

Then make this requirement have to occur every 3 years or the license is lost and the state comes after you.

Most reasonable people can get 3 letters of rec saying they are mentally fit to carry a weapon or could pass an in-person interview with a police officer as to their fitness.
These loner psycho's who are gunning down people in schools would never be able to do either. They'd be picked up so fast.

 

[glenn1]

Um, there already is. It's called your license exam. I know it varies state to state but in pretty much every state I have lived in (half dozen) they had one.

I didn't realize the clerk at the DMV was a licensed psychiatrist performing a full mental health screening. Maybe you should get the government out of that line of business then because they seem to be doing a pretty shitty job.

 

[jackstar7]

I didn't realize the clerk at the DMV was a licensed psychiatrist performing a full mental health screening. Maybe you should get the government out of that line of business then because they seem to be doing a pretty shitty job.

Heh. I get it. You're scared you couldn't pass an exam from a headshrinker and they'd take away your toys.