Florida High School Shooting

[pmv]

Underneath the "gun fetish" mask is a normal human, and non-evil reason to support the 2A. They are afraid of guns. And they cannot comprehend the possibility that they could be safe without them. Because if you were in a theater or other room like Aurora, CO, you'd sure as hell like to be capable of survival. What could have saved those people, if not for being armed themselves?

You attribute evil to a people most vulnerable, desperate, and afraid.

You make a good point, but doesn't this kind of reasoning, defensible as it is, logically lead to abandoning all forms of moral judgement in almost every context?

Many awful things are done by people who are afraid or can't get beyond thinking of themselves as victims (e.g. the Germans after WW1) and the worst, most intractable, conflicts are those where both sides think like that (like Northern Ireland or Israel/Palestine). People are still entitled to get angry with them when they are being insufferable. And some pro-gunners are just much more annoying than others.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Has anyone seen this yet? Pretty powerful speech. These kids will eventually vote this scum out of office. Hopefully this time people have had enough of America's idiotic gun culture and a change begins.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2018/...zalez-anti-gun-rally-fort-lauderdale-full.cnn

Actually, today young people are more likely to be conservative than they have been in many decades. Liberalism has become the de facto standard for a while and is now getting stale and out dated. People are sick of the everybody gets a trophy, shut down speech that they disagree with liberals and the pendulum is swinging. Trump was a symptom, and my guess is the ride will get even bumpier in the future.

http://time.com/4909722/trump-millennials-igen-republicans-voters/

https://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/...americans-gen-z-may-be-most-conservative-wwii

https://www.cnn.com/2016/09/07/health/millennials-conservative-generations/index.html

https://capitalresearch.org/article/the-conservative-millennial-no-longer-a-myth/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ashley...ats-should-be-losing-sleep-over-generation-z/

 

[SlowSpyder]

I don't think it's really true that those things are 'trending down and have been for decades'. They shot up dramatically during the 60s, stayed high during the 70s and 80s, came down equally rapidly in the 90s, and have since more-or-less flatlined at much the same level as before the '70s rise (having gone down a bit then recently started going up a bit).

It seems a hell of a puzzle why murder and violent crime in general was so high for the period '65 to '95 though. And not just for the US, to greater-or-lesser degrees, the same pattern occurred in all developed countries.

(I'm inclined to blame lead in petrol, myself, but maybe it's some deep sociological thing to do with non-linear responses to increases and decreases in wealth or social and physical mobility?).

Clearly it's true that there are many other factors in violence and murder than availability of guns. But that's not much consolation for those mourning their children. A preventable death is still worth preventing.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/191219/reported-violent-crime-rate-in-the-usa-since-1990/

Looks like a slight uptick recently, but the overall trend is that violent crime has been going down for decades. The assault weapons ban ended in 2004, I think.

 

[glenn1]

https://www.statista.com/statistics/191219/reported-violent-crime-rate-in-the-usa-since-1990/

Looks like a slight uptick recently, but the overall trend is that violent crime has been going down for decades. The assault weapons ban ended in 2004, I think.

You’ll notice the gun control crowd has no idea why that ban was ineffective and lacks the humility or introspection to even try to think of reasons.

 

[UNCjigga]

You’ll notice the gun control crowd has no idea why that ban was ineffective and lacks the humility or introspection to even try to think of reasons.

There's only one group of morons lacking the humility, introspection, courage, or common decency to even allow a debate on the floor or allow the CDC to gather data on gun deaths. Nice try.

 

[Thebobo]

bla bla bla

 

[007ELmO]

Japanese police officers shot 6 bullets all year in 2015. They are nearly required to have a black belt in Judo and focus on de-escalation instead of violence. Even the Yakuza has stopped using guns. Gang members with sense! America is behind the times, as we usually are. The gun laws are such that even gang members are afraid to break them.

 

[UNCjigga]

I'd give it maybe 24-48 hours before Trump starts attacking survivors of the Parkland shooting on Twitter: "They're saying very mean things about me, what are they learning in school?"

 

[pmv]

https://www.statista.com/statistics/191219/reported-violent-crime-rate-in-the-usa-since-1990/

Looks like a slight uptick recently, but the overall trend is that violent crime has been going down for decades. The assault weapons ban ended in 2004, I think.

I'd rather consider the murder rate - less subject to issues of definition, detection and reporting. Also more relevant to the topic of deadly weapons. From the same source:

https://www.statista.com/statistics...igent-manslaughter-rate-in-the-us-since-1990/

The real decline was during the '90s. Certainly a really puzzling question as to what caused it (I don't really have much of an opinion on 'the assault weapons ban', I just think the American attitude to firearms is crazy)

 

[Gryz]

Japanese police officers <snip> are nearly required to have a black belt in Judo ...

Well, American officers are required to be heavy-weights.

 

[FIVR]

Well, American officers are required to be heavy-weights.

American police are slowly evolving a thick layer of extra adipose tissue which helps block errant small-arms fire from their fellow officers. Nature is amazing!

 

[glenn1]

There's only one group of morons lacking the humility, introspection, courage, or common decency to even allow a debate on the floor or allow the CDC to gather data on gun deaths. Nice try.

Were you just take a shorter route and conclude that just like banning transsexuals from bathrooms didn’t decrease sexual assaults occurring in bathrooms, that banning assault weapons didn’t reduce the amount of mass shootings. With the common causal factor the boogeyman in both cases was more phantom fear by those wanting the ban than actual danger.

 

[rise]

Damn, trump pissed them kids off. MarchFor Our Lives, coming to a city near you!

 

[snoopy7548]

Japanese police officers shot 6 bullets all year in 2015. They are nearly required to have a black belt in Judo and focus on de-escalation instead of violence. Even the Yakuza has stopped using guns. Gang members with sense! America is behind the times, as we usually are. The gun laws are such that even gang members are afraid to break them.

Can you imagine if war was fought solely with fists? No guns, bombs, tanks, swords, knives... just pure hand to hand combat with various martial arts and fighting styles.

 

[Jhhnn]

Blame the FBI (of all people) for failure to deal with disturbed individuals while cutting funding for mental health-

But the budget blueprint also slashes spending for the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Administration by $665 million. Additionally, Bloomberg reported the National Institute of Mental Health would see a 30 percent reduction in funding — a half a billion dollar decrease — in 2019.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo...n-after-shooting-his-budget-would-cut-program

I'm sure another tax cut for the Rich will solve the whole problem....

 

[FIVR]

Blame the FBI (of all people) for failure to deal with disturbed individuals while cutting funding for mental health-



https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo...n-after-shooting-his-budget-would-cut-program

I'm sure another tax cut for the Rich will solve the whole problem....

Obviously US gun laws are the culprit for the phenomenon of school shooters, but in this instance the FBI can very easily be blamed for failing to heed repeated warnings from people around the shooter.


You can blame the FBI for their incompetence while also holding US legislators responsible for the absurd state of US gun laws. They are both problems that must be addressed.

 

[HomerJS]

Blame the FBI (of all people) for failure to deal with disturbed individuals while cutting funding for mental health-



https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo...n-after-shooting-his-budget-would-cut-program

I'm sure another tax cut for the Rich will solve the whole problem....

That's the latest spin from the right.

Ric Scott blaming them to mask his laws making it easier to access guns and prevent local municipalities from tightening up gun laws in Florida. Also school didn't have metal detectors

Trump blaming them claiming too much time spent on investigating Russia

Yes the FBI didn't notify local offices. But let's assume they did. Florida makes it too tough to separate the mentally ill from their guns. Republicans always claim mental health but they never take the next step of separate the mentally ill from guns.

 

[UNCjigga]

Were you just take a shorter route and conclude that just like banning transsexuals from bathrooms didn’t decrease sexual assaults occurring in bathrooms, that banning assault weapons didn’t reduce the amount of mass shootings. With the common causal factor the boogeyman in both cases was more phantom fear by those wanting the ban than actual danger.

Another point of view is that the assault weapons ban was toothless by design, as it established cosmetic criteria that were easily defeated, left too many loopholes for grandfathered guns and private resale, and generally did nothing to discourage the demand or ability of people to buy semi automatic guns in quantity, high capacity/detachable magazines in quantity or tons of ammo. Nevermind the fact that it only lasted 10 years.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Another point of view is that the assault weapons ban was toothless by design, as it established cosmetic criteria that were easily defeated, left too many loopholes for grandfathered guns and private resale, and generally did nothing to discourage the demand or ability of people to buy semi automatic guns in quantity, high capacity/detachable magazines in quantity or tons of ammo. Nevermind the fact that it only lasted 10 years.

Right, do nothing feel good garbage legislation that whittled away rights of legal gun owners while doing nothing tangible. And then the anti-2A'ers wonder why the pro-Constitution types are leary of another gun control bill. Banning "high capacity" mags will do nothing but attack legal gun owners' rights, just like the last bill.

 

[emperus]

Blame the FBI (of all people) for failure to deal with disturbed individuals while cutting funding for mental health-



https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo...n-after-shooting-his-budget-would-cut-program

I'm sure another tax cut for the Rich will solve the whole problem....

What would be more disruptive to the FBI, firing the head of the agency or an independent counsel with it's agents investigating the President. It's laughable the President seems to not understand that it is his FBI with an FBI director he picked.

 

[UNCjigga]

Right, do nothing feel good garbage legislation that whittled away rights of legal gun owners while doing nothing tangible. And then the anti-2A'ers wonder why the pro-Constitution types are leary of another gun control bill. The last one did nothing but attack lawful owners.

Maybe we need gun control laws that aren't designed to fail? I'm all for common sense solutions that don't necessarily involve a ban. This can be done while discouraging cheap imports of Chinese and East European designs in favor of American manufacturers. We have a well regulated three-tier distribution system to control alcohol sales...why not guns? We put limits on cigarette advertising and all sorts of controls against marketing to kids, why not with guns? We have mandatory licensing, registration and insurance for motor vehicles...why not for guns? Why are we so afraid to even let states or municipalities try something new?

What the anti gun proliferation crowd really wants to know is why every call for debate is met by pro-NRA types as an attack on 2A, or "Omagerd they comin' to get yer guns!!!!"

 

[HomerJS]

Clearly the United States has a problem to the degree the rest of the civilized world doesn't. Why do people think this country can't learn from others??

For example, this chart, from a 2007 study by Harvard researchers, shows a correlation between statewide firearm homicide victimization rates and household gun ownership after controlling for robbery rates:

 

[rise]

Obviously US gun laws are the culprit for the phenomenon of school shooters, but in this instance the FBI can very easily be blamed for failing to heed repeated warnings from people around the shooter.


You can blame the FBI for their incompetence while also holding US legislators responsible for the absurd state of US gun laws. They are both problems that must be addressed.

What about the local and state cops who were called to the house 39 times over 6 years? WTF is with just throwing the FBI under the bus at every opportunity? Yes, they screwed up but damn, the school and the local enforcement had a MUCH better read on him than the FBI

 

[HomerJS]

The people in favor of doing nothing are winning

 

[jackstar7]

Target shooting is a ton of fun

Entertainment, cool. Maybe find another hobby?

Why do you need a keyboard in 2018?

Whoa! A false equivalence in a gun discussion? *gasp!*

You want 2a repealed and I do not and I've already explained that to you which is why I showed you chapter 44 where comprehensive laws are for guns exist that restrict your right to ownership. This is the proper venue for inserting laws concerning mental illness and I cannot help if you lack the intellect to understand this.

You have yet to explain why you do not want 2A repealed. You have yet to explain why you need your gun(s). If you don't think that matters, then fine, but calling me dumb because you refuse to articulate an argument speaks for itself.