Flat Tax

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imported_tss4

Golden Member
Jun 30, 2004
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Originally posted by: 5LiterMustang
Originally posted by: TheAdvocate
Originally posted by: 5LiterMustang

Taxing non wage earners is ridiculous in my opinion. Only those poor losers who are working for the man should pay taxes!

Fixed. Don't try to be coy. This is what you mean.

UHHHH thanks for putting words in my mouth thats not at all what I mean. Besides the rich had to earn their money at some point. I have about 35k inthe market in non retirement money, every dollar it goes up the government is going to snag 15 or 20 cents you wanna tell me how thats fair considering I already paid taxes when I EARNED MY MONEY?

Again you paid tax only the first 35k. Any money you recieve as a result of letting them use your money, is new income.

You are providing a good or service (in this case you are giving them money to use on a temporary basis) and being taxed on the resulting income. Just like if you were a waiter, you would provide a service and then get taxed on the resulting income.
 

imported_tss4

Golden Member
Jun 30, 2004
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Originally posted by: zendari
Originally posted by: Jadow
Rahvin, where your thinking is wrong is that just because you lower one groups taxes, doesn't mean you have to raise another groups to make up for it. There isn't a fixed pool of tax revenue that can just be shifted around.

Lowering taxes increases economic activity which creates more jobs (thus causing more tax rev) causes people to get raises (more rev) causes people to buy things (sales tax revenue for state and local gov) etc...

We could lower taxes AND increase revenue.

What if Forbes plan DOES reduce taxes for the richest people w/o increasing taxes for the middle class and still increases govt revenue, would you still be against it just because the rich are paying less?

Yup, Reagan did this in the 80s by lowering the marginal tax rate on the upper upper class from ridiculous 70%+ levels to a level about what it is today. It resulted in a net increase in tax revenue from the upper class.

I would agree that 70% is ridiculous and I believe that lowering the marginal rate in that case would generate more revenue in the long run, but I don't believe lowering marginal rates always generates more income as some in this forum would have you believe.
 

imported_tss4

Golden Member
Jun 30, 2004
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Originally posted by: 5LiterMustang
Originally posted by: Engineer

And if that RICH person is paid in stock in leu of a salary and sells the stock, should he pay capital gains on the stock sales?

P.S. I haven't read and don't have time right now, but does the 17% include SS or not? If not, then most people in the middle class range would indeed pay more as it would be an effective 24.65% after deductions with the deductions going at 7.65%.

READ PEOPLE holy f'in SH!T people need to learn to read....Its amazing how many people dont have a clue that are rambling off crap that isn't true...

relax, just answer his question.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: 5LiterMustang
Originally posted by: Engineer

And if that RICH person is paid in stock in leu of a salary and sells the stock, should he pay capital gains on the stock sales?

P.S. I haven't read and don't have time right now, but does the 17% include SS or not? If not, then most people in the middle class range would indeed pay more as it would be an effective 24.65% after deductions with the deductions going at 7.65%.

READ PEOPLE holy f'in SH!T people need to learn to read....Its amazing how many people dont have a clue that are rambling off crap that isn't true...

Hey man, I asked a simple question and wasn't ranting about anything.


How about you read the bolded part above with screaming as you're the only one rambling on this one.

Question passed on to someone who has the info. If not, sorry to have bothered you with a post that you had to "READ".
 

sunzt

Diamond Member
Nov 27, 2003
3,076
3
81
BAD IDEA!

As it currently stands right now, tax is being used as a tool for negotiations of politics and policies. Tax benefits, tax credits, and all those other tax things are there to help make current policies possible. They are provided as incentives for things such as environmental compliance and many other things. A country like the US needs not only a simply structured tax code and system, but also one that allows the tax to be used as a tool for improvement and regulations.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: sunzt
BAD IDEA!

As it currently stands right now, tax is being used as a tool for negotiations of politics and policies. Tax benefits, tax credits, and all those other tax things are there to help make current policies possible. They are provided as incentives for things such as environmental compliance and many other things. A country like the US needs not only a simply structured tax code and system, but also one that allows the tax to be used as a tool for improvement and regulations.
Oh, I see... it's a bad idea because it would discourage bribery and corruption. In case you weren't aware, the monied write the tax code. With their interests, they lobby (read: bribe) Congress for benefits, exemptions, and credits in their favor, and not in favor of the common people.

Originally posted by: aidanjm
great way to accelerate the divide between richest and poorest
Care to defend this statement? Or do you think just saying it is enough? :roll:

With a highly-simplified tax code, this is a great way to put tax lawyers and H&R Block out of business. To significantly reduce the size of the IRS. To limit government abuse with a tax code that the common people could understand and *drumroll* actually do themselves without having to hire an expensive professional tax preparer. And with a keener understanding of their actual tax burden (instead of just "Ooh, I got a refund!!"), people would also be more likely to encourage the government to be fiscally conservative. Oh, oops... is that the REAL problem you have with it? ;)
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,746
6,762
126
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: sunzt
BAD IDEA!

As it currently stands right now, tax is being used as a tool for negotiations of politics and policies. Tax benefits, tax credits, and all those other tax things are there to help make current policies possible. They are provided as incentives for things such as environmental compliance and many other things. A country like the US needs not only a simply structured tax code and system, but also one that allows the tax to be used as a tool for improvement and regulations.
Oh, I see... it's a bad idea because it would discourage bribery and corruption. In case you weren't aware, the monied write the tax code. With their interests, they lobby (read: bribe) Congress for benefits, exemptions, and credits in their favor, and not in favor of the common people.

Originally posted by: aidanjm
great way to accelerate the divide between richest and poorest
Care to defend this statement? Or do you think just saying it is enough? :roll:

With a highly-simplified tax code, this is a great way to put tax lawyers and H&R Block out of business. To significantly reduce the size of the IRS. To limit government abuse with a tax code that the common people could understand and *drumroll* actually do themselves without having to hire an expensive professional tax preparer. And with a keener understanding of their actual tax burden (instead of just "Ooh, I got a refund!!"), people would also be more likely to encourage the government to be fiscally conservative. Oh, oops... is that the REAL problem you have with it? ;)
Nope, a progressive absolute tax with no loopholes will be just as easy. 99% is real easy to figure. You just move the decimal two places to see what you keep.

 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Nope, a progressive absolute tax with no loopholes will be just as easy. 99% is real easy to figure. You just move the decimal two places to see what you keep.
Communist countries typically have the worst Gini indices in the world, Moonie. You just can't milk the cow of production that much -- it dries up, and the poor starve first.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,746
6,762
126
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Nope, a progressive absolute tax with no loopholes will be just as easy. 99% is real easy to figure. You just move the decimal two places to see what you keep.
Communist countries typically have the worst Gini indices in the world, Moonie. You just can't milk the cow of production that much -- it dries up, and the poor starve first.

So then we just have to tweek the numbers.
 

5LiterMustang

Senior member
Dec 8, 2002
531
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Originally posted by: tss4

relax, just answer his question.

I've answered that question on this board in three other threads....

THe first two to four years the flat tax is out it will also be in conjunction with the CURRENT system. The taxpayer can choose which system to use based on the lowest of the two. Why? because the system will need fine tuning and it will take 2 to 5 years to iron out the problems so you DO NOT increase the tax burden on the lower and middle classes. After a few years the deductions and revenue streams will be figured out and taxes will not increase for people except those that use tons of loopholes (generally the ultra rich)
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: 5LiterMustang
Originally posted by: tss4

relax, just answer his question.

I've answered that question on this board in three other threads....

THe first two to four years the flat tax is out it will also be in conjunction with the CURRENT system. The taxpayer can choose which system to use based on the lowest of the two. Why? because the system will need fine tuning and it will take 2 to 5 years to iron out the problems so you DO NOT increase the tax burden on the lower and middle classes. After a few years the deductions and revenue streams will be figured out and taxes will not increase for people except those that use tons of loopholes (generally the ultra rich)

Sorry, that still doesn't tell me whether SS/Medicare 7.65% is included in the 17% or not. At this point, I'm bound to believe not and, based on my current taxes, it would be cheaper for me, by far, to keep the current system. When my dependants leave (years from now), it may change. I'm not for anything that raises my taxes...PERIOD. If they want to cut spending to keep taxes the same (and more simple), fine....

 

imported_tss4

Golden Member
Jun 30, 2004
1,607
0
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Originally posted by: 5LiterMustang
Originally posted by: tss4

relax, just answer his question.

I've answered that question on this board in three other threads....

THe first two to four years the flat tax is out it will also be in conjunction with the CURRENT system. The taxpayer can choose which system to use based on the lowest of the two. Why? because the system will need fine tuning and it will take 2 to 5 years to iron out the problems so you DO NOT increase the tax burden on the lower and middle classes. After a few years the deductions and revenue streams will be figured out and taxes will not increase for people except those that use tons of loopholes (generally the ultra rich)


I'm not neccesarily aginst the plan, but I can't support it if there is no capitol gains. Otherwise, the ultra rich will not ever be taxed.

As per, me telling you to relax. You just seemed a little over exasperated. We repeat things all the time on this board. Once, you move on to the next thread, what you said in this thread is pretty much history since most people didn't take part in it. No big deal.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: Train
Originally posted by: tss4
...
I'm not neccesarily aginst the plan, but I can't support it if there is no capitol gains. Otherwise, the ultra rich will not ever be taxed.
...
luxury tax?

No, income tax. Company gives stock in leu of salary and person sells stock for money and pays no tax on the gains. If no taxation on said sale, then no income tax on said person. Not sure how the corporation handles this as I don't know what they pay on the stock, if anything. Looks to me (at least at this time) a free lunch for the person receiving the stock instead of cash.
 

zendari

Banned
May 27, 2005
6,558
0
0
Flat tax should include capital gains and all sources of income. Eliminate social insecurity too.
 

Train

Lifer
Jun 22, 2000
13,587
82
91
www.bing.com
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: Train
Originally posted by: tss4
...
I'm not neccesarily aginst the plan, but I can't support it if there is no capitol gains. Otherwise, the ultra rich will not ever be taxed.
...
luxury tax?

No, income tax. Company gives stock in leu of salary and person sells stock for money and pays no tax on the gains. If no taxation on said sale, then no income tax on said person. Not sure how the corporation handles this as I don't know what they pay on the stock, if anything. Looks to me (at least at this time) a free lunch for the person receiving the stock instead of cash.
You dont have to go over the ABC's of how capital gains works. I think I got the basics.

Stocks also equal jobs. Rich people pretty much have to keep all thier money in investments. These investments are what causes great strides forward, such as the Tech boom of the 90's That wouldnt have been possible without large amounts of startup capital for all these companies to borrow from. The tech boom unfortunately would not be possible without rich people. Its just a fact youll have to accept. As much as it burns you to see a rich person not have to pay tax on a paycheck, it also helps you.

Luxury tax is ideal for this situation because now we can attack this money after this person decides to pull it out of investments and spend it. Say we taxed the top 20% most expensive house, boats, cars over $x amount, clothes over $x amount. You get the idea. And expensive as all these things are, even a small percentage would add up t to a lot more than the avg american pays. You could look at it from the point of view that the persons "income" is really only as good as what he spends. If a person has a billion dollars in the stock market, leave that money alone, as it's helping the economy. If he pulls out just 1 million a year to buy stuff, thats where you tax it.
 

imported_tss4

Golden Member
Jun 30, 2004
1,607
0
0
Originally posted by: Train
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: Train
Originally posted by: tss4
...
I'm not neccesarily aginst the plan, but I can't support it if there is no capitol gains. Otherwise, the ultra rich will not ever be taxed.
...
luxury tax?

No, income tax. Company gives stock in leu of salary and person sells stock for money and pays no tax on the gains. If no taxation on said sale, then no income tax on said person. Not sure how the corporation handles this as I don't know what they pay on the stock, if anything. Looks to me (at least at this time) a free lunch for the person receiving the stock instead of cash.
You dont have to go over the ABC's of how capital gains works. I think I got the basics.

Stocks also equal jobs. Rich people pretty much have to keep all thier money in investments. These investments are what causes great strides forward, such as the Tech boom of the 90's That wouldnt have been possible without large amounts of startup capital for all these companies to borrow from. The tech boom unfortunately would not be possible without rich people. Its just a fact youll have to accept. As much as it burns you to see a rich person not have to pay tax on a paycheck, it also helps you.

Luxury tax is ideal for this situation because now we can attack this money after this person decides to pull it out of investments and spend it. Say we taxed the top 20% most expensive house, boats, cars over $x amount, clothes over $x amount. You get the idea. And expensive as all these things are, even a small percentage would add up t to a lot more than the avg american pays. You could look at it from the point of view that the persons "income" is really only as good as what he spends. If a person has a billion dollars in the stock market, leave that money alone, as it's helping the economy. If he pulls out just 1 million a year to buy stuff, thats where you tax it.

This defeats the purpose of a flat tax. Just tax all income sources the same. If its fair for the middle income (who are important for the market too from the consumer end) then its fair for the rich people. And actually they wouldn't get taxed until they sell (that's the way capitol gain works), so it would increase the incentive to keep their money in the investment.
 

Train

Lifer
Jun 22, 2000
13,587
82
91
www.bing.com
Originally posted by: tss4
...This defeats the purpose of a flat tax. Just tax all income sources the same. If its fair for the middle income (who are important for the market too from the consumer end) then its fair for the rich people. And actually they wouldn't get taxed until they sell (that's the way capitol gain works), so it would increase the incentive to keep their money in the investment.
you've got a good point, but I dont do as good of a job explaining it as some more financially educated friends of mine. Perhaps the fine line is WHEN to tax it, because selling a stock doesnt neccesarily mean they are taking that money out of investments, they could simply be moving it to another stock.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Nope, a progressive absolute tax with no loopholes will be just as easy. 99% is real easy to figure. You just move the decimal two places to see what you keep.
Communist countries typically have the worst Gini indices in the world, Moonie. You just can't milk the cow of production that much -- it dries up, and the poor starve first.
So then we just have to tweek the numbers.
So you can have the cruel pleasure of binding the mouths of the kine that tread the grain? No thanks, Moonie. Get a job. Do something with your life. Find a way to benefit society, then society will benefit you, and you'll lose this sick jealousy of yours.
 

sunzt

Diamond Member
Nov 27, 2003
3,076
3
81
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: sunzt
BAD IDEA!

As it currently stands right now, tax is being used as a tool for negotiations of politics and policies. Tax benefits, tax credits, and all those other tax things are there to help make current policies possible. They are provided as incentives for things such as environmental compliance and many other things. A country like the US needs not only a simply structured tax code and system, but also one that allows the tax to be used as a tool for improvement and regulations.
Oh, I see... it's a bad idea because it would discourage bribery and corruption. In case you weren't aware, the monied write the tax code. With their interests, they lobby (read: bribe) Congress for benefits, exemptions, and credits in their favor, and not in favor of the common people.

Originally posted by: aidanjm
great way to accelerate the divide between richest and poorest
Care to defend this statement? Or do you think just saying it is enough? :roll:

With a highly-simplified tax code, this is a great way to put tax lawyers and H&R Block out of business. To significantly reduce the size of the IRS. To limit government abuse with a tax code that the common people could understand and *drumroll* actually do themselves without having to hire an expensive professional tax preparer. And with a keener understanding of their actual tax burden (instead of just "Ooh, I got a refund!!"), people would also be more likely to encourage the government to be fiscally conservative. Oh, oops... is that the REAL problem you have with it? ;)

True everything is corrupted, but if this flat tax idea ever gets proposed do you think it'll come out without any loopholes or influenced by corruption? We know that we need to simplify the code, but taxes are a powerful tool to instigate change and development as well and that's why it needs flexability. Giving credits to houses with solar power, for buying hybrid cars, having kids in college, and incentives like these are powerful enough right now to not let a simple flat tax idea pass through. Corruption will always exist and won't just disappear with this flat tax proposal, people will just work around it somehow (that's how corruption always works).

Even the current discussion as it is now shows that the proposed flat tax plan is too simple already. Suggesting such a simple tax plan is not the solution.
 

5LiterMustang

Senior member
Dec 8, 2002
531
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0
A flat tax is not too simple...and you could still make deductions for things like solar panels if the legislature deems it necessary.


How the heck is too simple a bad thing? That makes little if any sense.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: sunzt
True everything is corrupted, but if this flat tax idea ever gets proposed do you think it'll come out without any loopholes or influenced by corruption? We know that we need to simplify the code, but taxes are a powerful tool to instigate change and development as well and that's why it needs flexability. Giving credits to houses with solar power, for buying hybrid cars, having kids in college, and incentives like these are powerful enough right now to not let a simple flat tax idea pass through. Corruption will always exist and won't just disappear with this flat tax proposal, people will just work around it somehow (that's how corruption always works).

Even the current discussion as it is now shows that the proposed flat tax plan is too simple already. Suggesting such a simple tax plan is not the solution.
Check this out: solar panels and hybrid vehicles cost more in oil to manufacture than is recovered in efficiency during the products' lifecycles, and subsidizing college education increases education costs to everyone who doesn't qualify for the subsidy (which is almost always the poor).
It's the idea of using taxation as this type of tool that causes the corruption. Yet one more example of the road to hell being paved with the best of intentions. Take that out and make it impossible, and the corruption WILL go away.
 

Train

Lifer
Jun 22, 2000
13,587
82
91
www.bing.com
Originally posted by: Vic
...
Check this out: solar panels and hybrid vehicles cost more in oil to manufacture than is recovered in efficiency during the products' lifecycles, and subsidizing college education increases education costs to everyone who doesn't qualify for the subsidy (which is almost always the poor).
It's the idea of using taxation as this type of tool that causes the corruption. Yet one more example of the road to hell being paved with the best of intentions. Take that out and make it impossible, and the corruption WILL go away.
I agree with ya Vic, but the only thing left to do is compress this whole proposal into a 15 second sound byte that cant be attacked by the 10 second sound bytes of its opponents.

The american people arent going to read Forbes book, they are going to regurgitate the catch phrases the politicans keep telling them.