Flat Tax

[rahvin]

I encourage anyone that thinks this is a good idea to take last years tax return and see how much you actually paid in taxes then calculate how much you would pay under this plan. You will find that almost uniformly all the flat tax proposals will increase your taxes by hundereds or thousands of dollars. I don't know about the rest of you but I have a hard enough time making ends meet without paying an additional $5k in taxes.

Simplication of the tax code would be a very nice thing, something I fully support but I won't support a plan that raises my taxes. Spending cuts are what this country needs.

 

[Michael]

A few general comments:

1) If you don't know how the corporate tax code works, please don't toss out empty statements about those evil companies avoiding paying taxes. The biggest deduction they get that lowers their taxes is accelerated depreciation on capital investments. Capex spending is good for jobs and good for the USA manufacturing base. If they don't keep investing, the deduction drops rapidly and they end up paying the same taxes. the other main deduction is for stock options (tax code treats as an expense) and any gains are later taxed on the employee's income.

2) Class warfare is boring and counter-productive

3) My taxes would come down quite a lot under the 17% flat tax. However, like rahvin mentioned, I'm not incapable of basic math. If my taxes come down and spending does not go down then there is either more debt or someone else is paying more. This proposal means that others pay more (and I think debt goes up as well).

The tax code is huge and bloated and could use some serious trimming. If this ever starts, I predict massive squeals of pain from all the special interests that lose out.

Michael

 

[5LiterMustang]

Originally posted by: Jadow
a zero capital gains tax would encourage investment in the economy, which would create jobs. But I see your point.

I'm not goin to respond to every post this has been beaten to death on this board...but elimination of capital gains taxes would prove a great stimulant to the economy. ALSO, that money has already been taxed as INCOME so why tax it again? seems ridculous to me.

To call this not truly a flat tax is kinda wierd...its totally fair because no matter what you make you can claim the same deductions. It is a flat tax once the exemptions are used its the same for everyone.

I am all for this, it makes sense it would be much better than our current system and better than a national sales tax. Anyone who argues otherwise is either ignorant, mislead or has not done research into the subject, OR they're towing a party line/agenda. PERIOD...

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: Michael
The tax code is huge and bloated and could use some serious trimming. If this ever starts, I predict massive sqeals of pain from all the special interests that lose out.
Michael

And the biggest trimming needs to be the corporate tax code (the 1040 is a piece of cake in comparison). It's amazingly bloated and loaded with speicial interest exemptions. Heck I would support the elimination of corporate taxes under the right plan.

 

[5LiterMustang]

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: Michael
The tax code is huge and bloated and could use some serious trimming. If this ever starts, I predict massive sqeals of pain from all the special interests that lose out.
Michael

And the biggest trimming needs to be the corporate tax code (the 1040 is a piece of cake in comparison). It's amazingly bloated and loaded with speicial interest exemptions. Heck I would support the elimination of corporate taxes under the right plan.

Yup I've been advocatin that for a long LONG time. Brought it up in economics classes in school wrote several papers on it, have written my congressmen and senators OVER AND OVER on the issue of personal and corporate taxes. Elimination of corporate taxes makes economic sense and would have an unbelievable impact on our economy.

 

[5LiterMustang]

Originally posted by: rahvin
Look, I appoligize for attacking you personally but I really hate the propaganda of these flat tax proposals. They are all about shifting the tax burden to the working class, especially those that can least afford to pay the burden. The fact is that in our system everyone pays the same taxes on the same amount of earnings. Everyone pays the same amount of taxes on the first $10,000, and the second $10,000 and all amounts there after. I dislike that our taxes are so high, I would love to see them lowered but the way to do it is to lower spending, NOT cut taxes for the top 5% and increase them on everyone else.

Flat tax does NOT shift the burden to the working class, how about you read a little instead of spouting of rhetoric you read/hear on cnn or other political sites? Seriously? People do NOT pay the same amount under our current system. the first 10k on someone with 2 kids making 500k a year is taxed at the base rate...someone with 2 kids only making 20k a year though doesn't pay ANY taxes and in fact have a NEGATIVE tax rate...why? because they get money back, MORE than they pay in. The rates aren't the same, not even close and then when you factor in some of the stupid deductions that some folks in higher brackets can take to reduce their taxable income is purely absurd. The flat tax is fair, easy and better for the working class. Read forbes book or any book or SERIOUS article on a flat tax before making comments that are in NO WAY true.

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: 5LiterMustang

Originally posted by: rahvin
Look, I appoligize for attacking you personally but I really hate the propaganda of these flat tax proposals. They are all about shifting the tax burden to the working class, especially those that can least afford to pay the burden. The fact is that in our system everyone pays the same taxes on the same amount of earnings. Everyone pays the same amount of taxes on the first $10,000, and the second $10,000 and all amounts there after. I dislike that our taxes are so high, I would love to see them lowered but the way to do it is to lower spending, NOT cut taxes for the top 5% and increase them on everyone else.

Flat tax does NOT shift the burden to the working class, how about you read a little instead of spouting of rhetoric you read/hear on cnn or other political sites? Seriously? People do NOT pay the same amount under our current system. the first 10k on someone with 2 kids making 500k a year is taxed at the base rate...someone with 2 kids only making 20k a year though doesn't pay ANY taxes and in fact have a NEGATIVE tax rate...why? because they get money back, MORE than they pay in. The rates aren't the same, not even close and then when you factor in some of the stupid deductions that some folks in higher brackets can take to reduce their taxable income is purely absurd. The flat tax is fair, easy and better for the working class. Read forbes book or any book or SERIOUS article on a flat tax before making comments that are in NO WAY true.

Learn to do math. Everyone can't get a tax cut unless debt goes up or spending goes down. Cut the top 5% of earners taxes and everyone else makes it up.

Second everyone pays the same amount of taxes on the first $10,000. The earned income credit is another matter entirely and should be abolished.

Third, take my challenge, pull last years tax return and run the numbers and see how much more in taxes you would be paying and decide what you have to give up to pay it.

 

[Jadow]

Rahvin, where your thinking is wrong is that just because you lower one groups taxes, doesn't mean you have to raise another groups to make up for it. There isn't a fixed pool of tax revenue that can just be shifted around.

Lowering taxes increases economic activity which creates more jobs (thus causing more tax rev) causes people to get raises (more rev) causes people to buy things (sales tax revenue for state and local gov) etc...

We could lower taxes AND increase revenue.

What if Forbes plan DOES reduce taxes for the richest people w/o increasing taxes for the middle class and still increases govt revenue, would you still be against it just because the rich are paying less?

 

[Deudalus]

Learn to do math. Everyone can't get a tax cut unless debt goes up or spending goes down. Cut the top 5% of earners taxes and everyone else makes it up.

Everyone wouldn't get a tax cut, that's what you are missing I think.

My family makes very good money, but pays very little in taxes due to loopholes in the tax codes.

Let me give you the somewhat specifics:

1) We buy up a bunch of property in an area.
2) We have a retailer sign a lease on said property.
3) They buy the land from us, build their store, build their parking lot.
4) We buy the land and building back from them.
5) They pay us monthly rent to use the store.

Since we do not obtain any commission from sales on that store, our taxes are substantially less. Our taxes are lowered even more dramatically due to the fact that we can write off 170,000 square feet worth of real estate with a building and parking lot because of tax credits for upkeep and depreciation of our property (basically we have to keep the property in order and it is gradually becoming a less valueable building thus less taxes which of coure the Lessee actually takes care of).

I'm only actually only paying taxes on 2/3rds of my income right now because of these loopholes and that is before any of the other write offs. My dad is paying taxes on less than 1/3rd of our income and he is well into the 6 figure range.

A flat sales tax would force everyone to pay a fair share of taxes while those in need could be credited back for what they are having to pay monthly.

Income tax is easily avoided if you are smart about it. Sales taxes are generally very, very tough to avoid.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I want a progressive tax up to 99% It is a known fact that the greedy ambitious among us are like cows, the more you milk um the more they give.

You doublethink like any good slaveowner should, Moonie.

Originally posted by: rahvin
Look, I appoligize for attacking you personally but I really hate the propaganda of these flat tax proposals. They are all about shifting the tax burden to the working class, especially those that can least afford to pay the burden. The fact is that in our system everyone pays the same taxes on the same amount of earnings. Everyone pays the same amount of taxes on the first $10,000, and the second $10,000 and all amounts there after. I dislike that our taxes are so high, I would love to see them lowered but the way to do it is to lower spending, NOT cut taxes for the top 5% and increase them on everyone else.

You forget that "the top 5%" have written in deductions, write-offs, and tax shelters into the tax code the like of which tax lawyers and even the IRS can't understand, and thus don't actually pay that much more than the rest of us (%-wise), right? How and why the hell do you think the tax code got so fat and bloated in the first place? Example: I frequently do mortgages for business owners who drive expensive cars and live in high-dollar homes who can't verify their incomes (who are usually "flipping" investment properties btw). They get so many damn tax write-offs it's looks like they don't make a dime on their 1040's even when they make bank (and they scarcely pay any taxes).

Originally posted by: jimkyser
The CPAs and Lawyers would hate it.

Bingo.

Originally posted by: Michael
The tax code is huge and bloated and could use some serious trimming. If this ever starts, I predict massive sqeals of pain from all the special interests that lose out.

Double bingo.

Originally posted by: 5LiterMustang
I'm not goin to respond to every post this has been beaten to death on this board...but elimination of capital gains taxes would prove a great stimulant to the economy. ALSO, that money has already been taxed as INCOME so why tax it again? seems ridculous to me.

and WINNAR!

 

[engineereeyore]

I have two quick questions on this though, if someone could help me out. (All my math was calculus, so if it doesn't come in multiple dimensions, it's greek to me.)

First, maybe my math is wrong, but he (Mr. Forbes), said a family of six, mom, dad, and 4 kids, would receive an exemption of $65,930. $13,200 per adult, $4000 per dependant, plus $1000 for every kid under 16. (13,200 X 2) + (4,000 X 4) + (1,000 X 4) = $46,400. Even if you count the mom or dad as a dependant, if one isn't working, that's still only $50,400. Am I missing something?

Second, does anyone know if this flat tax would also get rid of any other taxes? I imagine it would be separate from state taxes, but aren't there also federal taxes on things like gasoline and other products? Would they be eliminated also?

 

[KK]

Originally posted by: Jadow
I think there's a good chance that the overall taxes people (and corps) pay would be about the same maybe a tad lower, but it would be so much more simple, fair, there would be less corruption, and govt revenue would go UP!

We should not be happy that govt revenue would go up. It's too bloated as it is now.

 

[BoberFett]

Vic

Is it any wonder that NAR is one of the biggest, if not the biggest, campaign contributor?

 

[Mark R]

I think we should have a truely flat tax.

Everyone man, woman or child pays $5,000 or whatever, a year. Simple to administer, simple to account for. Afterall, everyone uses or benefits from the same essential services, education, transport, etc. No need for exemptions, refunds, etc. Nothing fairer than that, eh?


Hmm. Maybe it wouldn't be such a great idea....

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: rahvin


Simplication of the tax code would be a very nice thing, something I fully support but I won't support a plan that raises my taxes. Spending cuts are what this country needs.

QFT.

 

[imported_tss4]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: 5LiterMustang
I'm not goin to respond to every post this has been beaten to death on this board...but elimination of capital gains taxes would prove a great stimulant to the economy. ALSO, that money has already been taxed as INCOME so why tax it again? seems ridculous to me.

and WINNAR!

Just to clarify a misconception here. Capitol gains does not tax the same money twice. It only taxes the new money you made off of the old money. For example, If I made $2000 last year then paid my income taxes on that (say $200-this is a completely fictituos tax rate obviosuly). I am left with $1800. I then invest all of that in stock. After one year is grows to $3000, at which point I sell it. Under current law, I pay capitol gains on the $1200 dollars that my money made (not the origianl $1800 which was allready taxed). .15 times $1200 = $180 that I pay now. If I weere to have been double taxed then I would pay that 15% on the initial 1800 which is $270 additional, but I don't. I'm not making a case for or against taxing capitol gains, but we need to have the facts straight.

 

[5LiterMustang]

Originally posted by: rahvin


Learn to do math. Everyone can't get a tax cut unless debt goes up or spending goes down. Cut the top 5% of earners taxes and everyone else makes it up.

Second everyone pays the same amount of taxes on the first $10,000. The earned income credit is another matter entirely and should be abolished.

Third, take my challenge, pull last years tax return and run the numbers and see how much more in taxes you would be paying and decide what you have to give up to pay it.

You are just proving my point that you haven't read a single article or book of substance on the flat tax, if people would READ and RESEARCH on their own this country would be a much better place. People such as yourself would actually be informed. I know how to do math thank you. I've taken through calc IV, and i also have taken enough econ classes to minor in econ so I know a little something about. Econ is also something I study on my own, why? because I LOVE the stuff. Read forbes book and then if you criticize it maybe I'll be more inclined to listen to your arguments because everything you have mentioned is shot down and torn to shreds in his book.

 

[5LiterMustang]

Originally posted by: tss4

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: 5LiterMustang
I'm not goin to respond to every post this has been beaten to death on this board...but elimination of capital gains taxes would prove a great stimulant to the economy. ALSO, that money has already been taxed as INCOME so why tax it again? seems ridculous to me.

and WINNAR!

Just to clarify a misconception here. Capitol gains does not tax the same money twice. It only taxes the new money you made off of the old money. For example, If I made $2000 last year then paid my income taxes on that (say $200-this is a completely fictituos tax rate obviosuly). I am left with $1800. I then invest all of that in stock. After one year is grows to $3000, at which point I sell it. Under current law, I pay capitol gains on the $1200 dollars that my money made (not the origianl $1800 which was allready taxed). .15 times $1200 = $180 that I pay now. If I weere to have been double taxed then I would pay that 15% on the initial 1800 which is $270 additional, but I don't. I'm not making a case for or against taxing capitol gains, but we need to have the facts straight.

So what? I made that money with money I had already paid taxes on. Taxing savings/checking/investment money is ridiculous in my opinion.

 

[TheAdvocate]

Originally posted by: 5LiterMustang

Taxing non wage earners is ridiculous in my opinion. Only those poor losers who are working for the man should pay taxes!

Fixed. Don't try to be coy. This is what you mean.

 

[5LiterMustang]

Originally posted by: TheAdvocate

Originally posted by: 5LiterMustang

Taxing non wage earners is ridiculous in my opinion. Only those poor losers who are working for the man should pay taxes!

Fixed. Don't try to be coy. This is what you mean.

UHHHH thanks for putting words in my mouth thats not at all what I mean. Besides the rich had to earn their money at some point. I have about 35k inthe market in non retirement money, every dollar it goes up the government is going to snag 15 or 20 cents you wanna tell me how thats fair considering I already paid taxes when I EARNED MY MONEY?

 

[TheAdvocate]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: rahvin


Simplication of the tax code would be a very nice thing, something I fully support but I won't support a plan that raises my taxes. Spending cuts are what this country needs.

QFT.

2nd'd

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: 5LiterMustang

Originally posted by: TheAdvocate

Originally posted by: 5LiterMustang

Taxing non wage earners is ridiculous in my opinion. Only those poor losers who are working for the man should pay taxes!

Fixed. Don't try to be coy. This is what you mean.

UHHHH thanks for putting words in my mouth thats not at all what I mean. Besides the rich had to earn their money at some point. I have about 35k inthe market in non retirement money, every dollar it goes up the government is going to snag 15 or 20 cents you wanna tell me how thats fair considering I already paid taxes when I EARNED MY MONEY?

And if that RICH person is paid in stock in leu of a salary and sells the stock, should he pay capital gains on the stock sales?

P.S. I haven't read and don't have time right now, but does the 17% include SS or not? If not, then most people in the middle class range would indeed pay more as it would be an effective 24.65% after deductions with the deductions going at 7.65%.

 

[imported_tss4]

Originally posted by: 5LiterMustang

Originally posted by: tss4

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: 5LiterMustang
I'm not goin to respond to every post this has been beaten to death on this board...but elimination of capital gains taxes would prove a great stimulant to the economy. ALSO, that money has already been taxed as INCOME so why tax it again? seems ridculous to me.

and WINNAR!

Just to clarify a misconception here. Capitol gains does not tax the same money twice. It only taxes the new money you made off of the old money. For example, If I made $2000 last year then paid my income taxes on that (say $200-this is a completely fictituos tax rate obviosuly). I am left with $1800. I then invest all of that in stock. After one year is grows to $3000, at which point I sell it. Under current law, I pay capitol gains on the $1200 dollars that my money made (not the origianl $1800 which was allready taxed). .15 times $1200 = $180 that I pay now. If I weere to have been double taxed then I would pay that 15% on the initial 1800 which is $270 additional, but I don't. I'm not making a case for or against taxing capitol gains, but we need to have the facts straight.

So what? I made that money with money I had already paid taxes on. Taxing savings/checking/investment money is ridiculous in my opinion.

Fine, but I'm just commenting that the money hasn't been taxed twice. That seems to be a popular misconception on this board. You're entitled to whatever economic view you wish.

But let me ask you this. Why is taxing income from savings and more ridiculous than taxing income from a job, or income from being a landlord, or income from any other source? Isn't that inherently advantageous to the wealthy since they derive their income from investments where as the middle class derive their income from work? Its all income.

 

[5LiterMustang]

Originally posted by: Engineer

And if that RICH person is paid in stock in leu of a salary and sells the stock, should he pay capital gains on the stock sales?

P.S. I haven't read and don't have time right now, but does the 17% include SS or not? If not, then most people in the middle class range would indeed pay more as it would be an effective 24.65% after deductions with the deductions going at 7.65%.

READ PEOPLE holy f'in SH!T people need to learn to read....Its amazing how many people dont have a clue that are rambling off crap that isn't true...

 

[zendari]

Originally posted by: Jadow
Rahvin, where your thinking is wrong is that just because you lower one groups taxes, doesn't mean you have to raise another groups to make up for it. There isn't a fixed pool of tax revenue that can just be shifted around.

Lowering taxes increases economic activity which creates more jobs (thus causing more tax rev) causes people to get raises (more rev) causes people to buy things (sales tax revenue for state and local gov) etc...

We could lower taxes AND increase revenue.

What if Forbes plan DOES reduce taxes for the richest people w/o increasing taxes for the middle class and still increases govt revenue, would you still be against it just because the rich are paying less?

Yup, Reagan did this in the 80s by lowering the marginal tax rate on the upper upper class from ridiculous 70%+ levels to a level about what it is today. It resulted in a net increase in tax revenue from the upper class.