Flag burning MUST REMAIN LEAGAL....BUT that doesn't mean that I won't KICK YOUR AS* IF I CATCH YOU DOING IT!!! It may be an unAmerican view, but if you don't like something in this country, do something about it or get the f*ck out!
Hey, how about that! I agree 100% with Russ. 
As others have noted, the flag is only a cloth symbol. The fact that what it represents means so much to you anti-burn folks is what makes the act of burning the flag such a strong form of communication. However, it is not the same as harming anyone or their property. As a conservative, Russ understands that if we are going to conserve, respect and honor those American freedoms that others have fought and died to protect, it has to include the freedom to make such strong statements, whether we agree with them, or not.
Ug45 --<<BUT that doesn't mean that I won't KICK YOUR AS* IF I CATCH YOU DOING IT!!! It may be an unAmerican view, but if you don't like something in this country, do something about it or get the f*ck out! >>
By that standard, you should be giving yourself the boot out of the country any day now. Think about it. If you're going to support our American freedoms, you can't pick and choose. Everyone gets the same freedom of expression, or you are being selectively hypocritical.
As others have noted, the flag is only a cloth symbol. The fact that what it represents means so much to you anti-burn folks is what makes the act of burning the flag such a strong form of communication. However, it is not the same as harming anyone or their property. As a conservative, Russ understands that if we are going to conserve, respect and honor those American freedoms that others have fought and died to protect, it has to include the freedom to make such strong statements, whether we agree with them, or not.
Ug45 --<<BUT that doesn't mean that I won't KICK YOUR AS* IF I CATCH YOU DOING IT!!! It may be an unAmerican view, but if you don't like something in this country, do something about it or get the f*ck out! >>
By that standard, you should be giving yourself the boot out of the country any day now. Think about it. If you're going to support our American freedoms, you can't pick and choose. Everyone gets the same freedom of expression, or you are being selectively hypocritical.
AndrewR, treason harms one side and is good for another, and will be treated by each accordingly. It's a different issue. The issue here is whether a symbol of freedom must inherently permit it's desacration or not. Your answer will be determined by whether you are attached superficially to the symbol, or hold to the deeper principal-freedom.
Maybe, as some point out, this can be more easily seen from the point of view of the revolution. "It is the right of the people to alter or abolish it (government and flag) and to institute new government as to them shall most likely to... (work better).
One day everybody probably would have shot anybody messing with the British flag, and the next Ms. Ross got out her needle and thread.
The danger I see in what you no-flag-burningers propose is the ease with which it is easy to slide from patriotism based on principal, respect for the form of government, to patriotism based on it's my country irrespective of it's guality.
The latter is the thinking of a robotized automaton programmed to serve. Such minds are unable to hold as a posibility, the notion, however faint, that they or their government could ever be wrong.
It is necessary, always, to question authority. Not to do so is the real "freedom without responsibility".
In order to question, you must be willing to bear the the weight of possible unpopularity.
Maybe, as some point out, this can be more easily seen from the point of view of the revolution. "It is the right of the people to alter or abolish it (government and flag) and to institute new government as to them shall most likely to... (work better).
One day everybody probably would have shot anybody messing with the British flag, and the next Ms. Ross got out her needle and thread.
The danger I see in what you no-flag-burningers propose is the ease with which it is easy to slide from patriotism based on principal, respect for the form of government, to patriotism based on it's my country irrespective of it's guality.
The latter is the thinking of a robotized automaton programmed to serve. Such minds are unable to hold as a posibility, the notion, however faint, that they or their government could ever be wrong.
It is necessary, always, to question authority. Not to do so is the real "freedom without responsibility".
In order to question, you must be willing to bear the the weight of possible unpopularity.
trea·son
n.
1) Violation of allegiance toward one's country or sovereign, especially the betrayal of one's country by waging war against it or by consciously and purposely acting to aid its enemies.
2) A betrayal of trust or confidence.
We do pledge allegiance to the flag, do we not? And as far as I'm concerned, if one (a citizen) refuses to pledge their allegiance to the flag and nation, then they should be considered suspect at best... possibly even have their right to vote removed since that is such a POWERFUL right and should not be conveyed to anyone who isn't serious about standing for this nation. If you are going to commit an act, like flag burning, be willing to pay the consequences for it. In my eyes, burning the flag is tantamount to treason.... do they still have the death penalty for treason?
Joe
n.
1) Violation of allegiance toward one's country or sovereign, especially the betrayal of one's country by waging war against it or by consciously and purposely acting to aid its enemies.
2) A betrayal of trust or confidence.
We do pledge allegiance to the flag, do we not? And as far as I'm concerned, if one (a citizen) refuses to pledge their allegiance to the flag and nation, then they should be considered suspect at best... possibly even have their right to vote removed since that is such a POWERFUL right and should not be conveyed to anyone who isn't serious about standing for this nation. If you are going to commit an act, like flag burning, be willing to pay the consequences for it. In my eyes, burning the flag is tantamount to treason.... do they still have the death penalty for treason?
Joe
Netopia, if I were running things, I would certainly be tempted to take away your right to vote so that you could not push for such a preposterous point of view. As it is, however, I will have to trust in and rely on just that selfsame inate absurdity of your viewpoint as my only refuge from its majoral adoption.
As it is, however, I will have to trust in and rely on just that selfsame inate absurdity of your viewpoint as my only refuge from its majoral adoption.<< And as far as I'm concerned, if one (a citizen) refuses to pledge their allegiance to the flag and nation, then they should be considered suspect at best... possibly even have their right to vote removed since that is such a POWERFUL right and should not be conveyed to anyone who isn't serious about standing for this nation >>
So basicly your saying that if a citizen does not believe our government is doing a good job, they should lose the right to change it (vote)? Having to pledge blind faith in any form of power is an extremely dangerous thing. Like it or not, the government idealy is supposed to allow for ALL peoples beliefs even if that includes the burning of our flag in protest. Our country would still be under British rule if our Countries founders did not openly protest what they thought to be an unjust government. Comparing the burning of the flag to treason is quite silly, showing disrespect to our nation is completely different than doing something to undermine its safety.
What flag burning basicly comes down to is should we have the right to disrespect our own government? And the answer to that should certainly be yes, otherwise it would not be called a Republic but rather a Tyranny.
i am in favor of protecting the flag too.
but then again, it's not like people abide by the rules that already exist for caring for the flag.
i always get angered when the flag is left out in the rain
but then again, it's not like people abide by the rules that already exist for caring for the flag.
i always get angered when the flag is left out in the rain
Hmm.... Let it burn ... We have the freedom to protest our own government, don't we?
The United States makes me sick. The White race makes me sick. I am sure i'm not the only one that is absolutely not proud to be a White man. We're a sick race. We're not Americans. The Native Americans are. Our history makes me sick. Our society makes me sick. We're plowing full speed down the road to nowhere.
The way I see it, I don't like it, but I shouldn't have to leave. I love Oregon. There is, literally, no other place quite like it on earth. Our geology is awesome. Unfortunate that this beautiful land resides in the area known as the United States of America.
America is great in a lot of ways compared to other countrys. We have wealth and material things flowing out of our ears. Are these the things that are important?
Unfortunately, it is not so great in a big number of other ways.
I believe that eventually, our wrong ways will change. It can't continue to degrade forever; If it does, it will result in our self-destruction.
Yep.. We're wealthy. Unfortunately, we're wealthy through the act of Greed. Money, to me, is the means of acquiring the things that I need, whether it be food and shelter, or supplies for the things that I need to build to sustain my existance. Nothing else. I do not wish to be rich; however I could not possibly be happy without money. Why? Because I need it to buy the basic fundamentals of life. If I was Homesteading in the woods, money would equal having firewood for warmth. Having a place to stay out of the rain, having food to eat. Our society looks at money itself as a thing of value. The more money you have, the higher in society you are. This is wrong. I don't expect many of you to understand my view of this.
All of our recent history has been influenced by external forces. It did not proceed naturally, the way it should, or perhaps the way that would have been in our best interest. Nope. The interest was money; How can we make more money?
Go read about Nikola Tesla, and the history of Energy.
Go read about GM, and the history of the Oil Industry.
Go read about the history of the Computer Industry.
It's all a joke.
The United States makes me sick. The White race makes me sick. I am sure i'm not the only one that is absolutely not proud to be a White man. We're a sick race. We're not Americans. The Native Americans are. Our history makes me sick. Our society makes me sick. We're plowing full speed down the road to nowhere.
The way I see it, I don't like it, but I shouldn't have to leave. I love Oregon. There is, literally, no other place quite like it on earth. Our geology is awesome. Unfortunate that this beautiful land resides in the area known as the United States of America.
America is great in a lot of ways compared to other countrys. We have wealth and material things flowing out of our ears. Are these the things that are important?
Unfortunately, it is not so great in a big number of other ways.
I believe that eventually, our wrong ways will change. It can't continue to degrade forever; If it does, it will result in our self-destruction.
Yep.. We're wealthy. Unfortunately, we're wealthy through the act of Greed. Money, to me, is the means of acquiring the things that I need, whether it be food and shelter, or supplies for the things that I need to build to sustain my existance. Nothing else. I do not wish to be rich; however I could not possibly be happy without money. Why? Because I need it to buy the basic fundamentals of life. If I was Homesteading in the woods, money would equal having firewood for warmth. Having a place to stay out of the rain, having food to eat. Our society looks at money itself as a thing of value. The more money you have, the higher in society you are. This is wrong. I don't expect many of you to understand my view of this.
All of our recent history has been influenced by external forces. It did not proceed naturally, the way it should, or perhaps the way that would have been in our best interest. Nope. The interest was money; How can we make more money?
Go read about Nikola Tesla, and the history of Energy.
Go read about GM, and the history of the Oil Industry.
Go read about the history of the Computer Industry.
It's all a joke.
Anyone who can't support the rights of flag burners and other free speech advocates might be happier in Iran or Iraq. I served in the Marines so idiots would have the freedom to burn our flag. I find it offensive, but I find smoking much more offensive.
I have mixed emotions about this. The flag is a symbol of our government but to me and many other former members of the services it is also a symbol of the men and women that died in defense of the US.
When someone burns the flag, I see the freedom that we have in the US to oppose our government but in my view I also see the disrespect they are showing for the veterans that gave them that very freedom.
I guess that it should be allowed but I don't have to like it or anyone that does it. That is my right.
When someone burns the flag, I see the freedom that we have in the US to oppose our government but in my view I also see the disrespect they are showing for the veterans that gave them that very freedom.
I guess that it should be allowed but I don't have to like it or anyone that does it. That is my right.
I say NO to flag burning.
US people should respect the US flag and the country and government that it represents. If the people that what to show their unhappiness with the way things are in the US, they can go elsewhere. I am certain that 99% of the
pro-flag burning people have NEVER lived out of the US or know what living with other forms of governments are about. THey should try living in some 3rd world country, and see how live is and how far they can get in life. It is true that things are not 100% great in the US, or any other country, but it is alot better than most places to in the world.
US people should respect the US flag and the country and government that it represents. If the people that what to show their unhappiness with the way things are in the US, they can go elsewhere. I am certain that 99% of the
pro-flag burning people have NEVER lived out of the US or know what living with other forms of governments are about. THey should try living in some 3rd world country, and see how live is and how far they can get in life. It is true that things are not 100% great in the US, or any other country, but it is alot better than most places to in the world.
<< Yup that is correct the courts have said that a convicted felon cannot be prosecuted for failing to register a firearm because that would violate their 5th amendment right against self incrimination. The beginnings of a world where only the criminals have the guns. >>
NesuD,
Why don't you provide some evidence for your above statement?
I find it very hard to believe.
You above analysis doesn't even make any sense.
A prosecutor can still prosecute a person (for
whatever crime) and the suspect does not have to get on
the stand (thereby protecting the suspect's 5th amendment
right). This applies to all crimes. So I dunno what
what the hell you are talking about.
I suspect that you interpreted the court decision wrongly.
You're right, I've never lived in another country. Did you read my post? Or did you skim through it, not even thinking twice about some of the things I said? Do you not want to believe it, or are you too "american" to believe it?
I said that I wouldn't want to live anywhere else, it's just unfortunate that my place of residence happens to be in the US of A.
If I were living out in the wilderness(Where I feel I belong, by the way), I would care less which artificially created Border I live within.
I said that I wouldn't want to live anywhere else, it's just unfortunate that my place of residence happens to be in the US of A.
If I were living out in the wilderness(Where I feel I belong, by the way), I would care less which artificially created Border I live within.
Moonbeam: However, what if the burning of the U.S. flag on U.S. soil aids an enemy by boosting their dropping morale because it shows a lack of cohesion and support at home for an overseas war effort (as in Vietnam)? Since treason is defined, to paraphrase, as aiding the enemy, could even the mere protest of burning the flag be considered treason in such a situation? Of course, one would have to have intent for such a determination but if that were present as well?
I am not saying that I think that's true but only that it's something to consider.
Similarly, how about we apply the rationale behind flag burning to supporting treason as a form of free speech. If protester Flag-flaming Fanny decides that burning the flag is not enough to protest the U.S. involvement in country Y, she looks for additional ways to thwart what she considers an illegal or unethical war/conflict -- for ways to protest the war and her government. She decides to provide basic information to the enemy, not to aid the enemy necessarily but to counter the government's actions, i.e. she gives advanced warning of attacks from cruise missiles. She is not harming U.S. soldiers since the weapons are unmanned, and no pilots will die. She is merely helping to minimize casualties and damage to the enemy.
Can that be considered free speech as well? Do you think Jane Fonda committed treason in North Vietnam (such as by providing a list of POWs to the Vietnamese which was given to her by the U.S. government -- that list included name, rank, and military specialty and worsened the plight of many POWs in captivity)? Or were her actions merely forms of speech in protest?
I am not saying that I think that's true but only that it's something to consider.
Similarly, how about we apply the rationale behind flag burning to supporting treason as a form of free speech. If protester Flag-flaming Fanny decides that burning the flag is not enough to protest the U.S. involvement in country Y, she looks for additional ways to thwart what she considers an illegal or unethical war/conflict -- for ways to protest the war and her government. She decides to provide basic information to the enemy, not to aid the enemy necessarily but to counter the government's actions, i.e. she gives advanced warning of attacks from cruise missiles. She is not harming U.S. soldiers since the weapons are unmanned, and no pilots will die. She is merely helping to minimize casualties and damage to the enemy.
Can that be considered free speech as well? Do you think Jane Fonda committed treason in North Vietnam (such as by providing a list of POWs to the Vietnamese which was given to her by the U.S. government -- that list included name, rank, and military specialty and worsened the plight of many POWs in captivity)? Or were her actions merely forms of speech in protest?
People, the constitution is where the value in the USA is, it is a representation of everything we hold dear. Our millitary swears alliegence to the constitution, not a person and certainly not a flag. The flag is nothing more than a symbol, a symbol that means MANY different things to many different people. Although flag burning disgusts me it IS freedom of expresion. In fact the USA is unique in the value we hold our flag, many countries citizens routinely burn their flags as a protest against the policies or government that represents them.
There is a reason they must amend the constitution to ban flag burning, because it is Freedom of expression. Where do you stop after that, how about an amendment repealing the first 5 amendments? Don't slip down that extremely slippery slope, we cannot afford to lose freedom and you must pay the price of that freedom by tollerating expression you find disgusting.
There is a reason they must amend the constitution to ban flag burning, because it is Freedom of expression. Where do you stop after that, how about an amendment repealing the first 5 amendments? Don't slip down that extremely slippery slope, we cannot afford to lose freedom and you must pay the price of that freedom by tollerating expression you find disgusting.
you say no to flag burning because it honors the fallen soldiers...what did those soldiers die for? Think about it for about 30 seconds, thank you..
People can burn the flag, its not like seeing a burning flag will magically change anyones beliefs. Express away, pyros.
AndrewR, Your last question, perhaps because of its rather hypothetical nature, caused me to step back a bit and try to get my bearings. I would say that we don't have a big actual issue with lots of people running around burning flags. In that vein, what sandorski said is quite apt and it's there we might want to spend real effort.
I would say, however, that I completely sympathize with your intention to defend what you think is right encluding offering examples where burning the flag aids and comforts the enemy, etc. But if the government tries to fight a war that the people don't want faught and have to demand stop being fought, the consequences to moral etc. are part of the colateral damage of bad government policy, not the fault of the people. Our revolution was treason, and if the British had won George Washington would probably have been executed.
We have the right to alter or abolish our government. Lots of people think that's treason.
To make an omlet you have to break eggs.
I would say, however, that I completely sympathize with your intention to defend what you think is right encluding offering examples where burning the flag aids and comforts the enemy, etc. But if the government tries to fight a war that the people don't want faught and have to demand stop being fought, the consequences to moral etc. are part of the colateral damage of bad government policy, not the fault of the people. Our revolution was treason, and if the British had won George Washington would probably have been executed.
We have the right to alter or abolish our government. Lots of people think that's treason.
To make an omlet you have to break eggs.
I don't know why Americans make such a big issue about some old rag being burnt.
The only reason why they do it, is because you lot make a big issue about it.
Fact is if you ban flag burning, they'l just stick an extra star on the flag or one less stripe, so its no longer the flag, yet it will still have the same effect on Americans when they see it on telly.
Personally I don't know why Americans get so hung up about symbols, they mean nothing. It's things of substance that matter. Actually nothing makes me prouder than the fact that I've never met an Aussie who knows the words to the Australian Nation Anthem, yet we have a 95% of Adults turning out & voting at general elections (which is double the percentage in the US).
BTW, contrary to popular beleif, voting is not compulsary in Australia, However one can be fined if one register's to vote but then doesnt turn up. But its not compulsary to register on the electoral roll, plus even if one elects to be on the electoral roll, its only then reqired that one turn up to have their name ticked off, at the polling booth, they don't actually have to vote.
The only reason why they do it, is because you lot make a big issue about it.
Fact is if you ban flag burning, they'l just stick an extra star on the flag or one less stripe, so its no longer the flag, yet it will still have the same effect on Americans when they see it on telly.
Personally I don't know why Americans get so hung up about symbols, they mean nothing. It's things of substance that matter. Actually nothing makes me prouder than the fact that I've never met an Aussie who knows the words to the Australian Nation Anthem, yet we have a 95% of Adults turning out & voting at general elections (which is double the percentage in the US).
BTW, contrary to popular beleif, voting is not compulsary in Australia, However one can be fined if one register's to vote but then doesnt turn up. But its not compulsary to register on the electoral roll, plus even if one elects to be on the electoral roll, its only then reqired that one turn up to have their name ticked off, at the polling booth, they don't actually have to vote.
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