Flag burning -- yes or no?

[glenn1]

"The answer to that question is simple, you draw the line at where the free speech will physicaly harm someone. For example you cannot yell fire in a crowded theatre. However burning a flag does not harm anyone (unless it starts a larger fire ), so it should be protected under the first amendment."

Nice try, and i would almost agree with you. But i can think of plenty of things that would not "physically harm someone," and still would not and should not be protected by the First Amendment. How about if i hacked the IRS database, and laid your financial and personal life bare on the web? I'm not causing you "physical harm," after all, could I claim First Amendment protection for my acts?

Okay, how about rather than a flag, i burned down a Federal building? Then by your logic, Timothy McVeigh's actions in bombing the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City a few years ago would have been constitutionally protected, had no one been injured.

See where your logic leads?

 

[NesuD]

I think it is wrong and the most serious form of disrespect to those who have suffered and died to preserve what it stands for but aai pretty much have to go with Russ's logic on the matter It doesn't really belong in the constitution. Our lawmakers would do more good trying to figure out why only people WITHOUT felony convictions can be prosecuted for failing to register a firearm where it is required by law. Yup that is correct the courts have said that a convicted felon cannot be prosecuted for failing to register a firearm because that would violate their 5th amendment right against self incrimination. The beginnings of a world where only the criminals have the guns.

 

[DirkBelig]

Q. What is the accepted method for disposing of a soiled or worn out flag?

A. Throw in garbage.
B. Burning
C. Take to post office for disposal

The answer kiddies is B, so any laws against flag burning are clear infringments on POLITICAL SPEECH.

Now, I left out a word from the burning answer, which was "respectfully", as in "respectfully burned" in a solemn ceremony but to elevate a piece of colored fabric that's stitched together in a certain manner to the status of SACRED SYMBOL not only is an attack on the First Ammendment, it's an attack on the First Commandment!

 

[BoberFett]

Wow Dirk, bravo!

 

[glenn1]

Yes Dirk, that is true, as i have stated (and you were almost right about bringing the flag to the post office - many VFW posts and other veteran associations will accept flags for disposal following a proper ceremony).

The actual ritual for disposing of an unserviceable flag (in case anyone cares), is as follows:
1. The flag is cut into its seperate elements (stripes, stars, and field)
2. White stripes are burned first, followed by red, followed by the blue field, and finished by burning the stars, one by one.

And yes, there is a great deal of solemnity and ceremony that is supposed to be exhibited in the process, which is why many folks do make use of veteran groups' standing offers to perform the ceremony.

Here's an interesting bit of trivia as well - the ball at the top of the flagpole is called a "truck." By legend (and by actual fact, at every US military installation of any significance, anywhere in the world), the truck is hollow, and contains the following 3 items: a razor, a match, and one .45 caliber pistol bullet. The razor is to cut the flag, the match to burn it, and the bullet to defend it. The placement and selection of the items in the truck are supposed to be so that a flag never falls into the hands of a hostile enemy. An interesting and true fact.

I know, way too much information perhaps, but don't they say you're supposed to learn something new everyday?

 

[Comp10]

<< But i can think of plenty of things that would not &quot;physically harm someone,&quot; and still would not and should not be protected by the First Amendment. >>



I meant the term physicaly harm someone very loosely, of course commiting crimes and conspiring to commit a crime is not covered under the first amendment. However you cannot compare the burning of a flag which does not in any way harm someone in any tangible way with bombing of a federal building. People do not work in flags nor do are they public property (unless your burning someone else's flag, then I agree you shouldnt be able to do it ). In no way does my logic suggest that you should be able to commit crimes under the first amendment, however the act of burning a flag is in no way similar to any crime.

EDIT:Fixed typo

 

[AndrewR]

Someone posted about the law in Canada -- anyone know what it is in Britain, France and Germany? I could see it going both ways in those countries, for a variety of reasons. Merits some research.

 

[perry]

To me, it borders on high treason to burn the flag. When I see a flag burning, it is like saying, &quot;f*ck you USA.&quot; Thousands have shed blood to guard the flag and everything it stands for. They paid the ultimate price to defend your freedoms. The least you can do is pay them a tiny bit of respect and not p*ss on their beliefs. Protest the goverment in any way you see fit, except for burning the flag. But burning it, you are basically saying I couldn't give a sh*t that people died in my defense.

Yes, I have a military connection. My father was an officer in the Army for 22 years before dieing while on active duty. That has nothing to do with it. It has to do with national pride and respect.

 

[BoberFett]

perry

Unfortunately you fail to recognize that fact that the soldiers who gave their lives for this country did so to protect the freedoms that everyone who lives here has, not just a select few.

 

[Untamo]

Wow. Interesting views, and good points.

From a Military standpoint, I understand the disrespect, but also this is a new generation coming forth. One that has not seen war, or the likes of tyranny. They've not had to fight for anything, hell most of them get a brand new $40,000 SUV and everything else paid to boot. So not fight, but not even EARN. They [we] have it easy, and we are used to seeing the good, but also the bad, moreso the bad, in general everyday society. Causes uproar, and unrest amongst those to young to have had a &quot;cause&quot; to fight for, so they do what they think is good for them. Join a &quot;cause&quot;. Namely in favor of reform in the actions of the US, and what better way to make thier point. This is thier &quot;war.&quot; However I dont believe they see the larger picture.

From a civilian standpoint, it really doesnt affect me. Perhaps it should. They believe what they will, misguided or not. I know most people can't change what I believe in w/o me wanting to change, so I leave them be. As hard as you try and stop people from doing something they'll try just as hard to do it, if not more. Again, misguided tho it may be, there is a good reason/point deep down in there somewhere. With the exception of blind hatred, but even then, there is a cause behind it.

Personally, people are too pridefull.

 

[DirkBelig]

I have always HATED the phrase &quot;those who DIED to defend the flag&quot;!!! If ANYONE died for a piece of CLOTH, then they died in vain! Yes, it represents the ideals of America. That's what people fought and died for. If you could ask a soldier, at the moment a bullet is plowing into his head, if he thinks that a patterned cloth is worth what's happening to him, I'd wager that he wouldn't be too enthused about it.

The flag is a symbol, a powerful symbol (ask any Southener how they feel about the Star and Bars) but in the end, it's just &quot;team colors&quot; like U of M's maize &amp; blue. It is not our GOD. It is not our liberty and freedom. If every US flag vanished and was replaced by a gingham tablecloth from Bob Evans, would it be the end of American values and freedom? Didn't think so.

(Those who know my politics know that I've got serious issues with the coming election and the general status quo in America. BUT, I fear a government and public that can be railroaded by burning cloth into foresaking the very liberties they say are embodied by it.)

 

[BlkDragon6]

I'm sure the citizens of the British colonies in America had a hell of a time burning the British flag during the times of pre revolution and during the revolution. Take away our freedom to rebel and try to make change in the government is taking away what the fathers of our country had in mind when forming our individual rights as citizens of the US. Everytime I hear that darn phrase &quot;love it or leave it&quot; all I can think about is &quot;change it or lose it&quot;.

 

[glenn1]

&quot;I have always HATED the phrase &quot;those who DIED to defend the flag&quot;!!! If ANYONE died for a piece of CLOTH, then they died in vain! Yes, it represents the ideals of America. That's what people fought and died for. If you could ask a soldier, at the moment a bullet is plowing into his head, if he thinks that a patterned cloth is worth what's happening to him, I'd wager that he wouldn't be too enthused about it.&quot;

You've obviously never been in the military. That's not a slam, or an insult, just an observation. It's a matter of honor for a soldier to defend the flag, yes, that simple piece of cloth you are speaking of. A soldier will recognize that you might not understand or be able to appreciate thinking in this manner, and would not fault you for thinking it to be irrational. That's fine. Just understand in turn, that for reasons you might not understand, that simple piece of cloth you are referring to IS worth laying life on the line.

That doesn't have anything to do with the argument at hand, i just wanted to put it out there for you to think about.

 

[astroview]

No military connection myself.

I want to be able to burn the flag at anytime. No one has the right to tell me what to do as long as I am not harming the public good or others, and that includes flag burning.

 

[glenn1]

&quot;No military connection myself.

I want to be able to burn the flag at anytime. No one has the right to tell me what to do as long as I am not harming the public good or others, and that includes flag burning.&quot;

Feel free to burn a flag any time you want. It is your right as a citizen, paid for by the blood of others. Because that's what America is about, rights without responsibilities. I'm sure you would have made all those who made the sacrifice for you, very proud of you. Congratulations.

 

[Moonbeam]

Hehehehe, It's so good to see that others know the anguish of real analysis, fidelity to fundamental principals, and devotion to truth.

AndrewR, as you check out how the Brits, Canadians and Germans see it, maybe you could also report back on how it's handled by the Commies and Nazis.

 

[MooseKnuckle]

I'm all for saving the flag, not burning it.

 

[searcher]

Our politicians &quot;wrapping themselves in the flag&quot; discrace it and the soldiers that died for it much more than anyone burning it in protest.

Glenn 1:
Having never been in the military I definitely do not understand &quot;laying your life on the line&quot; for a piece of cloth, I don't doubt it I just don't understand it. Gotta be some serious brain-washing going on there. All this time I thought you were fighting to protect America, her people and her freedoms. Guess I've been brainwashed too.

Michael

 

[KarsinTheHutt]

I am personally against flag burning, but I don't beleive this is something the government should legislate.

 

[monckywrench]

While I detest flag burners, I also find no evidence that flag burning is a serious enough problem to require a Constitutional amendment to stop it. Tinkering with the Constitution over relatively minor issues (however emotionally charged) opens the door to revisions motivated by partisan politics, and endangers all our freedoms. The flag protection amendment proposals themselves were &quot;litmus tests&quot; constructed to arouse objections, so that those who objected could become political targets. The only reason to outlaw flag burning is that it hurts the feelings of some citizens, self included. Nowhere is the right to &quot;not be offended&quot; even mentioned in the Constitution or Bill of Rights. Part of what keeps this counrty somewhat free is the protection of speech, to include acts of political protest. The Flag is sacred to me, but the Constitution is far more so. I serve in the military to defend freedom, not just freedom to conform to my personal political ideals.

 

[BoberFett]

glenn1

I am a prior serviceman, I think the act of flag burning must be protected.

 

[nEoTeChMaN]

It is just a flag that was made in China.

Big deal.

 

[MrPALCO]

NO

It is an act of dishonor to the lives taken for the cause of Freedom..

 

[AndrewR]

<< AndrewR, as you check out how the Brits, Canadians and Germans see it, maybe you could also report back on how it's handled by the Commies and Nazis. >>


More than likely, it was punishable by death, just as treason is in the U.S. Or, should treason be a form of free speech?

 

[JellyBaby]

I would personally never burn our country's flag, even so send a strong message. There are other, better ways of getting a point across. However, I would also not tell anyone else to do the same. The government has no business deciding this issue.

If flag burning became illegal, I can almost guarantee you flag and lighter sales will go up. Make something like this illegal and its use will rise (this is something I learned from another thread). What's next, you can't burn any state flag?

So if the 28th (think we're at 27 now right?) Amendment said &quot;You cannot burn the American federal flag&quot;, I'd wager the 29th would read &quot;Ummm, forget that 28th amendment thing, we messed up&quot;.