Flag burning on the fourth

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: sMiLeYz
On the contrary, I believe Moonbeam has always been very astute in his observations. Sometimes you just got to get through his thick layer of sarcasm and irony to see what hes really saying.

This is true... and most interesting when the arguments ensue and the point Moonbeam is making is hardly ever noticed...

 

[Brie]

Originally posted by: sandorski
Hypothetical situation:

You see a Protestor. In one hand he has the Flag, in the other the Constitution/Bill of Rights. He says, "Choose which I should burn!"

Choose.

You ever consider why protestors burn flags, but not the Documents? Simple really, the Flag is more symbolic of a Territorial boundary. The Constitution and Bill of Rights is the real America, they are not limited by boundaries on a map. They are Ideas and Concepts of Universal appeal, they are the backbone of America and what makes America appealing to much of the rest of the World.

Americans would do themselves Justice if they piled all those flags up high and burnt them all. Go out and get the Constitution and Bill of Rights and hang them in your homes. Read those words, learn them, live them.

One must also wonder why a protester would burn a flag IF NOT to extract a strong emotion. While we may hate it, we do get the protestors message in one way or another.

Sample news story:
(some number) of (some cause) protesters were arrested today for burning an American flag. ..... you get the point

I feel the best way to deal with flag burners is to simply ignore them...why grant them the attention they want??

 

[Drift3r]

Originally posted by: tec699
If an American wanted to vent a bit of frustration, would you care if they burned the American Flag? Are they allowed to burn the flag, and if you saw someone do this in front of you (especially on July 4th) what would your reaction be?

I mean... We live in a free society right? So shouldn't an American be allowed to burn old glory if he wanted?

just asking...

The flag means nothing to me it's just a piece of cloth. To me it's the principles and ideas that are backed up by that flag which really counts. Attack the foundations of those principals and ideas then I'll be very very pissed off indeed.

 

[BurnItDwn]

I would retaliate by burning the french flag, as well as a bible, and the kuran, and maybe urinate on a cross or something .... cause ... obviously, if i'm pissed about something the best way to vent is to try to offend others rather than to try to make things better.

 

[AvesPKS]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Of course we can. This is an issue that distinguishes real patriots from the superficial frauds. The mounting numbers of superficialists, however, who wear their Americanism on their sleeves has grown to such a proportion, however, that many a politician tries to curry favor with these fools by proposing an anti-flag burning amendment. So far it has failed.

The flag stands for freedom and the day you can't burn it is the day you should. It is precisely and exactly because you can burn it that puts a lie to the act.

So, are you saying that this anti-flag burning amendment is a new thing? Or are you forgetting the veterans who have believed in this for years, as well as calling the American Legion superficial frauds, with regard to patriotism? We have a system set up, with rules to define legality. If those rules are changed, something can become illegal which, a minute before, used to be legal. It just seems to me that there are people out there who have bled (and others who have died) for Old Glory, and to them it's more than 'just a piece of cloth'.

 

[Gaard]

Originally posted by: AvesPKS

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Of course we can. This is an issue that distinguishes real patriots from the superficial frauds. The mounting numbers of superficialists, however, who wear their Americanism on their sleeves has grown to such a proportion, however, that many a politician tries to curry favor with these fools by proposing an anti-flag burning amendment. So far it has failed.

The flag stands for freedom and the day you can't burn it is the day you should. It is precisely and exactly because you can burn it that puts a lie to the act.

So, are you saying that this anti-flag burning amendment is a new thing? Or are you forgetting the veterans who have believed in this for years, as well as calling the American Legion superficial frauds, with regard to patriotism? We have a system set up, with rules to define legality. If those rules are changed, something can become illegal which, a minute before, used to be legal. It just seems to me that there are people out there who have bled (and others who have died) for Old Glory, and to them it's more than 'just a piece of cloth'.

Nobody dies for a flag. They die for what it stands for. You can burn a piece of cloth. You can't burn what it stands for.

 

[AvesPKS]

Originally posted by: Gaard

Originally posted by: AvesPKS

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Of course we can. This is an issue that distinguishes real patriots from the superficial frauds. The mounting numbers of superficialists, however, who wear their Americanism on their sleeves has grown to such a proportion, however, that many a politician tries to curry favor with these fools by proposing an anti-flag burning amendment. So far it has failed.

The flag stands for freedom and the day you can't burn it is the day you should. It is precisely and exactly because you can burn it that puts a lie to the act.

So, are you saying that this anti-flag burning amendment is a new thing? Or are you forgetting the veterans who have believed in this for years, as well as calling the American Legion superficial frauds, with regard to patriotism? We have a system set up, with rules to define legality. If those rules are changed, something can become illegal which, a minute before, used to be legal. It just seems to me that there are people out there who have bled (and others who have died) for Old Glory, and to them it's more than 'just a piece of cloth'.

Nobody dies for a flag. They die for what it stands for. You can burn a piece of cloth. You can't burn what it stands for.

Look at the article on the right. This guy died to keep a 'piece of cloth' from touching the ground.

 

[Gaard]

Originally posted by: AvesPKS

Originally posted by: Gaard

Originally posted by: AvesPKS

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Of course we can. This is an issue that distinguishes real patriots from the superficial frauds. The mounting numbers of superficialists, however, who wear their Americanism on their sleeves has grown to such a proportion, however, that many a politician tries to curry favor with these fools by proposing an anti-flag burning amendment. So far it has failed.

The flag stands for freedom and the day you can't burn it is the day you should. It is precisely and exactly because you can burn it that puts a lie to the act.

So, are you saying that this anti-flag burning amendment is a new thing? Or are you forgetting the veterans who have believed in this for years, as well as calling the American Legion superficial frauds, with regard to patriotism? We have a system set up, with rules to define legality. If those rules are changed, something can become illegal which, a minute before, used to be legal. It just seems to me that there are people out there who have bled (and others who have died) for Old Glory, and to them it's more than 'just a piece of cloth'.

Nobody dies for a flag. They die for what it stands for. You can burn a piece of cloth. You can't burn what it stands for.

Look at the article on the right. This guy died to keep a 'piece of cloth' from touching the ground.

That's sad. Die for the sake of a piece of cloth. Would this guy meet the requirements of a Darwin Award?

 

[AvesPKS]

Originally posted by: Gaard

Originally posted by: AvesPKS

Originally posted by: Gaard

Originally posted by: AvesPKS

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Of course we can. This is an issue that distinguishes real patriots from the superficial frauds. The mounting numbers of superficialists, however, who wear their Americanism on their sleeves has grown to such a proportion, however, that many a politician tries to curry favor with these fools by proposing an anti-flag burning amendment. So far it has failed.

The flag stands for freedom and the day you can't burn it is the day you should. It is precisely and exactly because you can burn it that puts a lie to the act.

So, are you saying that this anti-flag burning amendment is a new thing? Or are you forgetting the veterans who have believed in this for years, as well as calling the American Legion superficial frauds, with regard to patriotism? We have a system set up, with rules to define legality. If those rules are changed, something can become illegal which, a minute before, used to be legal. It just seems to me that there are people out there who have bled (and others who have died) for Old Glory, and to them it's more than 'just a piece of cloth'.

Nobody dies for a flag. They die for what it stands for. You can burn a piece of cloth. You can't burn what it stands for.

Look at the article on the right. This guy died to keep a 'piece of cloth' from touching the ground.

That's sad. Die for the sake of a piece of cloth. Would this guy meet the requirements of a Darwin Award?

Wow...

 

[Nitemare]

Originally posted by: Gaard

Originally posted by: AvesPKS

Originally posted by: Gaard

Originally posted by: AvesPKS

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Of course we can. This is an issue that distinguishes real patriots from the superficial frauds. The mounting numbers of superficialists, however, who wear their Americanism on their sleeves has grown to such a proportion, however, that many a politician tries to curry favor with these fools by proposing an anti-flag burning amendment. So far it has failed.

The flag stands for freedom and the day you can't burn it is the day you should. It is precisely and exactly because you can burn it that puts a lie to the act.

So, are you saying that this anti-flag burning amendment is a new thing? Or are you forgetting the veterans who have believed in this for years, as well as calling the American Legion superficial frauds, with regard to patriotism? We have a system set up, with rules to define legality. If those rules are changed, something can become illegal which, a minute before, used to be legal. It just seems to me that there are people out there who have bled (and others who have died) for Old Glory, and to them it's more than 'just a piece of cloth'.

Nobody dies for a flag. They die for what it stands for. You can burn a piece of cloth. You can't burn what it stands for.

Look at the article on the right. This guy died to keep a 'piece of cloth' from touching the ground.

That's sad. Die for the sake of a piece of cloth. Would this guy meet the requirements of a Darwin Award?

I'd consider him for a patriot award. I reserve darwin awards to the stupid Arab mofo that managed to catch himself on fire while attempting to burn the flag. To alot of people the glag is simply a piece of colored cloth. I, on the other hand, love my country and thus see the American flag as a physical representation of it. My father served in the military and my grandfather did a couple of tours in the Asian front during WW2.

To me there would be no difference if that person was choosing to burn the flag on the 4th or 5th of July. as an American he has a constitutional right to exercise freedom to display his hatred and ignorance.


I am granted the right to freedom of expression myself as well. This would explain how he could be hospitalized for expressing and receiving the 1st amendment rights.

 

[Bulk Beef]

The flag stands for freedom and the day you can't burn it is the day you should. It is precisely and exactly because you can burn it that puts a lie to the act.

Great googly moogly! :Q I said those exact words to my dad a couple of months ago, when he wrongfully suggested that I might be one of those so-called "patriots" that thought a flag burning amendment was in order.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Does the flag just represent our country? Or does it equally represent our government? I doubt many of the idiots, as many of you have so eloquently called these people, hate the United States, but rather the infestation of assmaggots we call our government. I personally love the ideals this country was founded on, but I would burn a flag in a heartbeat if I thought it would make people think about what has happened to our country because of the government we have had for the past decades. Unfortunately, too many people would see that and yell, scream, bitch, and moan without asking the most important question someone can ask. Why? What happened to the U.S.A.? When did we stop asking questions like that? When did we stop being the rebelious bastards who wanted our tea for a reasonable price and become a bunch of bitches standing in line to see the next American Idol contestant get ripped a new one by a limey with a bad hairpiece?

 

[Mean MrMustard]

Originally posted by: AvesPKS

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Of course we can. This is an issue that distinguishes real patriots from the superficial frauds. The mounting numbers of superficialists, however, who wear their Americanism on their sleeves has grown to such a proportion, however, that many a politician tries to curry favor with these fools by proposing an anti-flag burning amendment. So far it has failed.

The flag stands for freedom and the day you can't burn it is the day you should. It is precisely and exactly because you can burn it that puts a lie to the act.

So, are you saying that this anti-flag burning amendment is a new thing? Or are you forgetting the veterans who have believed in this for years, as well as calling the American Legion superficial frauds, with regard to patriotism? We have a system set up, with rules to define legality. If those rules are changed, something can become illegal which, a minute before, used to be legal. It just seems to me that there are people out there who have bled (and others who have died) for Old Glory, and to them it's more than 'just a piece of cloth'.

I was under the impression that most veterans are against the amendment. (I have yet to hear the opinions voiced of any that are.) I really don't see how they could be for it. You should be proud to display the flag and to cherish it not because you're supposed to by law, that takes the meaning out of it. You should do it because you want to.

Gotta love state mandated patriotism.

 

[Gaard]

Nitemare - <<To alot of people the flag is simply a piece of colored cloth. I, on the other hand, love my country and thus see the American flag as a physical representation of it.>>

I hope you aren't implying that if one sees the flag as simply a piece of cloth it must mean they don't love their country. Is that what you are saying in the above quote?

 

[Moonbeam]

Gotta love state mandated patriotism.
---------------------------
But it's amazing how many think that way.

 

[EXman]

The flag stands for freedom and the day you can't burn it is the day you should.

Very Quotable! I actually agree with Moonbeam is Hell freezing over?

He is right though the flag represents the right to burn it. It represents nothing if you do not have that freedom.

On the other hand I think most people who burn the flag abuse the right and other nations burning it disgusts me.

 

[UltraQuiet]

I was under the impression that most veterans are against the amendment. (I have yet to hear the opinions voiced of any that are.) I really don't see how they could be for it

There's at least one veteran's group out there that is supporting the amendment, the Fleet Reserve Association. My understanding is that the VFW and the American Legion are also supporting the amendment. Here's the letter the FRA is urging their members to send to their Congress critter:

I am writing you today to urge your support of legislation that would prohibit the physical desecration of the United States flag.

Representative Randy "Duke" Cunningham (CA) and Senator Orrin Hatch (Utah) have introduced H. J. Res 4 and S. J. Res 4 respectively. The resolutions propose an amendment to the Constitution to prohibit the physical desecration of our Nation's flag. This legislation affirms the solemn and sacred nature of our National Banner. Many men and women who serve and have served in the Armed Services feel deeply about the honor and dignity of the United States flag. The physical desecration of the flag is an affront to them and the memory of those who died in the service of this Nation.

Our National Banner is a symbol of our democracy and freedom and represents the countless numbers of men and women who have sacrificed their lives in service to our country. Please support this legislation which protects the flag from physical destruction and maintains the dignity and honor of our Nation's flag.

Sincerely,

I am not a supporter of the amendment but I do understand the argument made by those who are.

 

[DaiShan]

No no no no no you got it wrong, you do not vent frustration by burning the flag, you burn the flag to make a point. In fact in several states it is still illegal to burn the flag, however freedom of speech protects the right to burn the flag (as stated by the supreme court) when the burning of the flag is to make a statement. You can't just burn it for firewood, if there is a law on the books then you would be in violation, I doubt that is ever enforced though.

 

[DaiShan]

Originally posted by: HappyPuppy

Originally posted by: freegeeks
I have a couple of flags at home and I've used pieces of it to light on my bbq.
I've never understand how somebody could be emotionally attached to a piece of fabric

note: i'm not american, patriotism is not in my genes

In the U.S. you have every right to do so. You also have the right to cut it up into 4" squares and wipe your ass with it. It's just another bit of property that belongs to you to do with as you please as long as you don't compromise public safety.

I believe that desecrating the symbol of something that grants you the freedom to do as you please is ignorant, but that's just me. I get upset just seeing the American flag displayed incorrectly, let alone abused.

BTW, I quit flying my flag, the one that my WWI vet grandfather was buried beneath, when the invasion began. I don't know when I will be able to display it with pride again.

I'm pretty sure you are wrong, at least it depends on which state you are in, I've got the research in a folder, we did a moot court case that dealt a lot with first ammendment freedoms specifically the freedom of speech as it pertains to expression (artistic and otherwise). Basically the way it lies it: if a state has a law on the books that forbids flag burning, you are justified and protected in burning the flag so long as you are making a statement, but lighting your bbq with it (assuming the state has said law) would be illegal and you would not be protected under freedom of expression (speech).

 

[DaiShan]

Originally posted by: Trezza
i don't have any evidence on this but i am pretty sure it is illegal to burn the american flag in protest. Whether or not the police would got after you for it is another things. Its one of those old laws from the 1800's where the average citizen cared about their country and weren't crying about every other thing the gov't did. I would seriously like to know if anyone of you people who degrade this country and live in it are involved in anything that would further your point of view.

You got it mixed up, it is LEGAL to burn it in protest, not legal to burn it for firewood. I contend however that the patriotic american is one who questions the government and in so doing forces its accountability to the people. Yes I am actively involved in furthering my point of view and I hope you all are too. Vote! It is the most important right you posess.

 

[DaiShan]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: ELP

Originally posted by: Moonbeam


The flag stands for freedom and the day you can't burn it is the day you should. It is precisely and exactly because you can burn it that puts a lie to the act.

Quite possibly two of the best sentences ever typed in the P & N forum.

I also think Moonbeam and I are in 100% agreement on an issue...for once

CkG

heh I will third that

 

[DaiShan]

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: sMiLeYz
On the contrary, I believe Moonbeam has always been very astute in his observations. Sometimes you just got to get through his thick layer of sarcasm and irony to see what hes really saying.

This is true... and most interesting when the arguments ensue and the point Moonbeam is making is hardly ever noticed...

No its noticed, I just ignore it, lest I get in over my head

 

[AvesPKS]

Originally posted by: Ultra Quiet

I was under the impression that most veterans are against the amendment. (I have yet to hear the opinions voiced of any that are.) I really don't see how they could be for it

There's at least one veteran's group out there that is supporting the amendment, the Fleet Reserve Association. My understanding is that the VFW and the American Legion are also supporting the amendment. Here's the letter the FRA is urging their members to send to their Congress critter:

I am writing you today to urge your support of legislation that would prohibit the physical desecration of the United States flag.

Representative Randy "Duke" Cunningham (CA) and Senator Orrin Hatch (Utah) have introduced H. J. Res 4 and S. J. Res 4 respectively. The resolutions propose an amendment to the Constitution to prohibit the physical desecration of our Nation's flag. This legislation affirms the solemn and sacred nature of our National Banner. Many men and women who serve and have served in the Armed Services feel deeply about the honor and dignity of the United States flag. The physical desecration of the flag is an affront to them and the memory of those who died in the service of this Nation.

Our National Banner is a symbol of our democracy and freedom and represents the countless numbers of men and women who have sacrificed their lives in service to our country. Please support this legislation which protects the flag from physical destruction and maintains the dignity and honor of our Nation's flag.

Sincerely,

I am not a supporter of the amendment but I do understand the argument made by those who are.

I know for a fact that the American Legion has supported an Amendment to this effect for years.



Here.

 

[zantac]

http://www.comedycentral.com/tv_shows/thedailyshowwithjonstewart/videos_corr.jhtml

Click on Flag Day

 

[jackschmittusa]

I am a vet. I doubt that I would ever burn or condone burning a U.S. flag. I would also not make it illegal. I suggest a law that says that the government recognizes that burning a flag is intended to provoke onlookers, and that no penalty greater than $10 be assesed against anyone responding to such provocation with physical violence that does not result in maiming or death. The potential flag burner is put on notice that he may get his ass kicked and will not be able to sue for millions or call for the imprisonment of those he provoked. Probably not a good idea for a law really, but it does reflect my feelings to some degree.