First Drive: 10 Fusion, 10 Fusion Hybrid, 10 Mustang

[PricklyPete]

I'm not loving the big chrome grill...but otherwise the Fusion is perfectly handsome for a notoriously boring segment. Seems to be quite a nice vehicle now that they've upgraded the engine/interior. It has already proven itself to be very reliable. I think Ford has a winner on its hands...unfortunately it is up to the buying public who will still flock to Toyotas and Hondas because of their perceived higher quality.

 

[PricklyPete]

Originally posted by: Arkaign
Yes, I like the Mazda3 and the C1 platform, it's very capable and manageable. The point was the advantages/drawbacks of the whole package, not just whether something has IRS or not.
...
this Mustang's movements that makes the old car feel like Mr. Ed. Did we just say "precision" and "Mustang" in the same sentence?"

Very nicely put Arkaign! I hate when people pick on one aspect of any car, or really any product, and make it a deal breaker instead of summing up the whole package. Sure...some times there is merit...but so often with cars (which are all engineering compromises for price), its the whole setup and how it performs that should be judged..not a single component.

A great example is the small block in a Corvette. Anyone saying that a Corvette sucks because it has "ancient" engine technology is thick-headed as clearly the Corvette performs exceptionally...especially given the price.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Arkaign

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: senseamp
You could argue that most BMW buyers don't really care about the difference in handling between a BMW and a Toyota. They just drive them to work. But BMW sells a lot of cars based on the legendary handling. It's not about impressing the average drivers, it is about impressing enthusiasts and others (magazines, tv shows, etc) whose opinion average car buyer turns to when making a decision.

funny, all the magazines and websites really like the way the current mustang drives, often commenting that unless you hit some really big bumps mid corner you'll never know its back there. seems the people who harp about the lack of IRS are internet bench racers.

Umm, no. I drive in the twisties, in the mountains. I really don't want to be going tail first off of one because of a primitive rear suspension just because there happens to be a bump on the road.

TBH, that sounds a little insane. Let's be honest, it'd have to be a pretty big bump, combined with extreme speed in the turn, to cause you to lose enough grip to spin off the road because of the live axle. In fact, if you were driving that hard, an IRS isn't going to magically save you, the difference really isn't that big a deal. The Mustangs with IRS don't magically handle worlds better than the ones that don't. You can compare cars that handle really really well (Lotus Elise/Exige, Corvette, Boxster, Cayman, Gallardo, R8, etc) to those that are cheap (Mazda3, Mustang, Camaro, etc), and you of course can see worlds of difference. There are countless factors other than whether it has IRS or not, that play into how well you're going to be able to handle the road.

IMO, weight, wheel width, and layout make more of a difference than the suspension setup in handling. And sometimes there's just an intangible waiting that surprises everyone.

I wouldn't lump Mazda3 with Mustang and Camaro. My Mazda3 handles like a dream. Grip is tenacious, and when you do start to lose it, it's very progressive, controllable and neutral, even on the bumps. That is what a fine tuned IRS setup gets you. Even if one wheel hits a bump, it has no impact on the grip of another wheel as it does in a live axle or beam rear suspension. I had a beam rear suspension Maxima before, and the rear end was a lot more lively under sharp cornering on bumps. It did not inspire anywhere near the same level of confidence driving to my mountain bike rides in Santa Cruz mountains. And ultimately that's what it comes down to. You have to trust your suspension to deliver consistent handling, bumps or no bumps.

And how many '05+ Mustangs have you driven? Until you answer that question, all your bluster adds up to nothing more than bench racing.

I've driven the cars. On real roads, against some very expensive German machinery, German machinery that has an even better reputation than the BMWs you brought up earlier. Had no trouble keeping up in the Mustang.

The Mustang also is certainly better than any little FWD pocket rocket. I've driven the new Mazdas. They're nice. But they still plow towards the guardrail if you push them.

ZV

 

[adlep]

Isn't F Fusion a Mazda 6 with uglified interior and Ford badges?

 

[DarkThinker]

For the love of GOD can't an American car manufacturer make a car without cheesing it up? ENOUGH WITH THE CHROME GRILL FAD FORD!

 

[Zebo]

I like most Fords too and it's while they are actually surviving - except that $40,000 station wagon thing FLEX - My wife has the new Taurus and I have two F series trucks. The edge is really cool too. The Focus and new fiesta are going to do well. Ford also gets bonus points having the best mileage truck and SUV out with Ranger (needs update) and Escape.
In general they are in top of things. Lincoln/Mercury OTOH.....Kill them. Also their E-series vans look like ass and are overpriced compared to Chevy's by about $6000.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: freegeeks
I don't understand some elements of the hybrid obsession

My Audi a4 2.0 tdi gets 38 mpg and that is with normal driving. I can get 43 mpg+ when I drive around like there is an egg under my pedal

Ford has diesels that get 65 MPG but Americans don't buy diesels. http://www.businessweek.com/ma...=rss_topEmailedStories

Regardless both diesels and hybrid represent a poor cost of ownership due to additional engine and fuel or battery cost respectively.

 

[zerocool84]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Arkaign

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: senseamp
You could argue that most BMW buyers don't really care about the difference in handling between a BMW and a Toyota. They just drive them to work. But BMW sells a lot of cars based on the legendary handling. It's not about impressing the average drivers, it is about impressing enthusiasts and others (magazines, tv shows, etc) whose opinion average car buyer turns to when making a decision.

funny, all the magazines and websites really like the way the current mustang drives, often commenting that unless you hit some really big bumps mid corner you'll never know its back there. seems the people who harp about the lack of IRS are internet bench racers.

Umm, no. I drive in the twisties, in the mountains. I really don't want to be going tail first off of one because of a primitive rear suspension just because there happens to be a bump on the road.

TBH, that sounds a little insane. Let's be honest, it'd have to be a pretty big bump, combined with extreme speed in the turn, to cause you to lose enough grip to spin off the road because of the live axle. In fact, if you were driving that hard, an IRS isn't going to magically save you, the difference really isn't that big a deal. The Mustangs with IRS don't magically handle worlds better than the ones that don't. You can compare cars that handle really really well (Lotus Elise/Exige, Corvette, Boxster, Cayman, Gallardo, R8, etc) to those that are cheap (Mazda3, Mustang, Camaro, etc), and you of course can see worlds of difference. There are countless factors other than whether it has IRS or not, that play into how well you're going to be able to handle the road.

IMO, weight, wheel width, and layout make more of a difference than the suspension setup in handling. And sometimes there's just an intangible waiting that surprises everyone.

I wouldn't lump Mazda3 with Mustang and Camaro. My Mazda3 handles like a dream. Grip is tenacious, and when you do start to lose it, it's very progressive, controllable and neutral, even on the bumps. That is what a fine tuned IRS setup gets you. Even if one wheel hits a bump, it has no impact on the grip of another wheel as it does in a live axle or beam rear suspension. I had a beam rear suspension Maxima before, and the rear end was a lot more lively under sharp cornering on bumps. It did not inspire anywhere near the same level of confidence driving to my mountain bike rides in Santa Cruz mountains. And ultimately that's what it comes down to. You have to trust your suspension to deliver consistent handling, bumps or no bumps.

I hope you're talking about a Mazdaspeed3 and not a regular 3 handling like a dream. If you're talking about a regular 3 then you need to drive a car with some good handling.

 

[Gibson486]

Originally posted by: freegeeks
I don't understand some elements of the hybrid obsession

My Audi a4 2.0 tdi gets 38 mpg and that is with normal driving. I can get 43 mpg+ when I drive around like there is an egg under my pedal

It's not only about MPG, it's also about emission, which most do not care about.

 

[Gibson486]

Originally posted by: zerocool84

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Arkaign

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: senseamp
You could argue that most BMW buyers don't really care about the difference in handling between a BMW and a Toyota. They just drive them to work. But BMW sells a lot of cars based on the legendary handling. It's not about impressing the average drivers, it is about impressing enthusiasts and others (magazines, tv shows, etc) whose opinion average car buyer turns to when making a decision.

funny, all the magazines and websites really like the way the current mustang drives, often commenting that unless you hit some really big bumps mid corner you'll never know its back there. seems the people who harp about the lack of IRS are internet bench racers.

Umm, no. I drive in the twisties, in the mountains. I really don't want to be going tail first off of one because of a primitive rear suspension just because there happens to be a bump on the road.

TBH, that sounds a little insane. Let's be honest, it'd have to be a pretty big bump, combined with extreme speed in the turn, to cause you to lose enough grip to spin off the road because of the live axle. In fact, if you were driving that hard, an IRS isn't going to magically save you, the difference really isn't that big a deal. The Mustangs with IRS don't magically handle worlds better than the ones that don't. You can compare cars that handle really really well (Lotus Elise/Exige, Corvette, Boxster, Cayman, Gallardo, R8, etc) to those that are cheap (Mazda3, Mustang, Camaro, etc), and you of course can see worlds of difference. There are countless factors other than whether it has IRS or not, that play into how well you're going to be able to handle the road.

IMO, weight, wheel width, and layout make more of a difference than the suspension setup in handling. And sometimes there's just an intangible waiting that surprises everyone.

I wouldn't lump Mazda3 with Mustang and Camaro. My Mazda3 handles like a dream. Grip is tenacious, and when you do start to lose it, it's very progressive, controllable and neutral, even on the bumps. That is what a fine tuned IRS setup gets you. Even if one wheel hits a bump, it has no impact on the grip of another wheel as it does in a live axle or beam rear suspension. I had a beam rear suspension Maxima before, and the rear end was a lot more lively under sharp cornering on bumps. It did not inspire anywhere near the same level of confidence driving to my mountain bike rides in Santa Cruz mountains. And ultimately that's what it comes down to. You have to trust your suspension to deliver consistent handling, bumps or no bumps.

I hope you're talking about a Mazdaspeed3 and not a regular 3 handling like a dream. If you're talking about a regular 3 then you need to drive a car with some good handling.

Mazda3 does have good handling.....

But this is Senseamp. He is a HUGE 3 zealot.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Gibson486

Originally posted by: zerocool84

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Arkaign

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: senseamp
You could argue that most BMW buyers don't really care about the difference in handling between a BMW and a Toyota. They just drive them to work. But BMW sells a lot of cars based on the legendary handling. It's not about impressing the average drivers, it is about impressing enthusiasts and others (magazines, tv shows, etc) whose opinion average car buyer turns to when making a decision.

funny, all the magazines and websites really like the way the current mustang drives, often commenting that unless you hit some really big bumps mid corner you'll never know its back there. seems the people who harp about the lack of IRS are internet bench racers.

Umm, no. I drive in the twisties, in the mountains. I really don't want to be going tail first off of one because of a primitive rear suspension just because there happens to be a bump on the road.

TBH, that sounds a little insane. Let's be honest, it'd have to be a pretty big bump, combined with extreme speed in the turn, to cause you to lose enough grip to spin off the road because of the live axle. In fact, if you were driving that hard, an IRS isn't going to magically save you, the difference really isn't that big a deal. The Mustangs with IRS don't magically handle worlds better than the ones that don't. You can compare cars that handle really really well (Lotus Elise/Exige, Corvette, Boxster, Cayman, Gallardo, R8, etc) to those that are cheap (Mazda3, Mustang, Camaro, etc), and you of course can see worlds of difference. There are countless factors other than whether it has IRS or not, that play into how well you're going to be able to handle the road.

IMO, weight, wheel width, and layout make more of a difference than the suspension setup in handling. And sometimes there's just an intangible waiting that surprises everyone.

I wouldn't lump Mazda3 with Mustang and Camaro. My Mazda3 handles like a dream. Grip is tenacious, and when you do start to lose it, it's very progressive, controllable and neutral, even on the bumps. That is what a fine tuned IRS setup gets you. Even if one wheel hits a bump, it has no impact on the grip of another wheel as it does in a live axle or beam rear suspension. I had a beam rear suspension Maxima before, and the rear end was a lot more lively under sharp cornering on bumps. It did not inspire anywhere near the same level of confidence driving to my mountain bike rides in Santa Cruz mountains. And ultimately that's what it comes down to. You have to trust your suspension to deliver consistent handling, bumps or no bumps.

I hope you're talking about a Mazdaspeed3 and not a regular 3 handling like a dream. If you're talking about a regular 3 then you need to drive a car with some good handling.

Mazda3 does have good handling.....

But this is Senseamp. He is a HUGE 3 zealot.

It's hard not to be if you own one. That car just does everything so right.
Regular 3 hatch is 200lbs lighter than Speed3.
Not saying it handles better or not, but it handles really well.
Not just feel of the road and balance, but also how undramatic it is at the limit. It grips for dear life, but even when it goes beyond the limit, it s very neutral smooth and controllable.

 

[Gibson486]

Originally posted by: senseamp

It's hard not to be if you own one. That car just does everything so right.
Regular 3 hatch is 200lbs lighter than Speed3.
Not saying it handles better or not, but it handles really well.
Not just feel of the road and balance, but also how undramatic it is at the limit. It grips for dear life, but even when it goes beyond the limit, it s very neutral smooth and controllable.

I do own one.....has little over 36k now....

Honestly, the more you drive it, the more you see where they cut corners. It's a good car and it does handle well (and it brakes really well too), but you can easily see where they cut corners in order to achieve it at that price range.

 

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: Strk

Originally posted by: freegeeks
I don't understand some elements of the hybrid obsession

My Audi a4 2.0 tdi gets 38 mpg and that is with normal driving. I can get 43 mpg+ when I drive around like there is an egg under my pedal

You also can't get diesels in all 50 states (should be soon) and they also have a terrible reputation over here.

Not to mention diesel still costs 2.68/gallon where I live. Gasoline is ~1.70/gallon.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Gibson486

Originally posted by: senseamp

It's hard not to be if you own one. That car just does everything so right.
Regular 3 hatch is 200lbs lighter than Speed3.
Not saying it handles better or not, but it handles really well.
Not just feel of the road and balance, but also how undramatic it is at the limit. It grips for dear life, but even when it goes beyond the limit, it s very neutral smooth and controllable.

I do own one.....has little over 36k now....

Honestly, the more you drive it, the more you see where they cut corners. It's a good car and it does handle well (and it brakes really well too), but you can easily see where they cut corners in order to achieve it at that price range.

Well, of course they have to build it to a price, but for a fixed budget, I'd say they put it in a right place, at least for me.

 

[TehMac]

The 2010 Mustang really looks hot, I just wish they'd put a bigger damn engine in. Or ffs tune the frickin current one. 4.6L is more than enough, tune it you lazy bastards.

 

[randomlinh]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Gibson486

Originally posted by: senseamp

It's hard not to be if you own one. That car just does everything so right.
Regular 3 hatch is 200lbs lighter than Speed3.
Not saying it handles better or not, but it handles really well.
Not just feel of the road and balance, but also how undramatic it is at the limit. It grips for dear life, but even when it goes beyond the limit, it s very neutral smooth and controllable.

I do own one.....has little over 36k now....

Honestly, the more you drive it, the more you see where they cut corners. It's a good car and it does handle well (and it brakes really well too), but you can easily see where they cut corners in order to achieve it at that price range.

Well, of course they have to build it to a price, but for a fixed budget, I'd say they put it in a right place, at least for me.

yeah, it's got some really good handling.. for it's class. I've seen comparisons of the 3/6 to even BMW's... but I think it's more of from the general consumer perspective. A) RWD is a huge different to me, and B) I love my 3, but even the older 323/328's I've driven (and autocrossed) are so much nicer. I hate the interior, but I almost regretted not looking for a used one instead of getting my 3.


As for the Fords... bleh. Nothing new or exciting really. I think the Fusion needs some heavy reworking.. it looks too mediocre IMO. But the platform it's built on is solid.