BlackTigers
Diamond Member
- Jan 15, 2006
- 4,491
- 2
- 71
zerocool84
Lifer
- Nov 11, 2004
- 36,041
- 472
- 126
I don't think the Mustang was ever meant to be or that they even want to make a world class sports/gt car. It's a cheap V8 that many people can afford that's decent in a straight line. Why try to make it something it's not? Making a Mustang refined kills what a Mustang is. This is from a guy who would never own a Mustang.
theeedude
Lifer
- Feb 5, 2006
- 35,787
- 6,197
- 126
Because making it something it's not will attract new buyers. I don't accept this excuse for being mediocre at all. I would not buy any car with sporty aspirations riding on live rear axles. Even SUVs don't ride on those anymore. If Ford wants to compete for my money, they have to advance with the times. Decent and cheap is not good enough anymore. There are plenty of cars that go fast in straight line and have IRS. Camaro and Challenger both have IRS, and no one is complaining that Chevy or Dodge are making them something they are not.
zerocool84
Lifer
- Nov 11, 2004
- 36,041
- 472
- 126
Why waste money on a tech that either people will not care about or will complain about. Mustang is a straight line car. Look what happened when they put IRS on the Cobra. People went crazy about it cus people drag Stangs, they don't take them to the back country to drive them in the twisties.
IRS blah blah blah. The mustang isn't a ferrari but its not a turd in the turns either like all the IRS crew loves to think. The Challenger isn't cheap and is a pig as is the new camaro. I'm too lazy to look up the stats but I'd be surprised to find out the challenger 5.7l out handles a mustang GT. I haven't seen any stats on the camaro yet but it does look like a nice car and GM has really gone out of their way to make cars handle well lately. Just have to hope it translate into sales with this camaro so maybe Ford has a reason to improve the mustang a bit quicker. The last camaro was faster and handled better than the mustang and you see how much that mattered.
theeedude
Lifer
- Feb 5, 2006
- 35,787
- 6,197
- 126
You could argue that most BMW buyers don't really care about the difference in handling between a BMW and a Toyota. They just drive them to work. But BMW sells a lot of cars based on the legendary handling. It's not about impressing the average drivers, it is about impressing enthusiasts and others (magazines, tv shows, etc) whose opinion average car buyer turns to when making a decision. BMW winning all the magazine comparos thanks to its handling sure helps them move a lot of 3 series. And the opinion influencers will tell the average buyer that a new Camaro handles better than the Mustang because it has an IRS. Average buyer may not even know what the hell "handles better" means, but he'll take the reviewer's word for it. Also, Mustang is Ford's high visibility halo car. You can debate whether it's a sports car or pony car all you want, but it reflects poorly on Ford as a brand to have their performance car riding on an ancient live axle setup, which is ironic because their mainstream cars are now some of the best handling in the industry. Nissan went through same thing when they put Maxima on beam rear suspension. It didn't handle all that bad, but it's primitive technology that got a lot of criticism, so they moved back to IRS.
zerocool84
Lifer
- Nov 11, 2004
- 36,041
- 472
- 126
I highly doubt the average consumer buys BMW's because of the "legendary handling". They buy it for the brand name.
TraumaRN
Diamond Member
- Jun 5, 2005
- 6,893
- 63
- 91
Going back to the Fusion.....I'm thinking I'm definitely going to get a hybrid one. I've read a couple of these first drive and so far have basically all been very positive about the hybrid. The rims dont thrill me but its not a deal buster. The fact that I could drive to work and barely use any gas DOES thrill me. My drive to work is 7 miles city where the speed limit is 35mph and 7 miles on the freeway with a 55mph limit...if the mileage is as good as these reviewer say it is....I could go 3 weeks, maybe more, without a fill up.
Plus I get Ford A plan thanks to my father
Plus I get Ford A plan thanks to my father
SearchMaster
Diamond Member
- Jun 6, 2002
- 7,791
- 114
- 106
Originally posted by: DeathBUA
Going back to the Fusion.....I'm thinking I'm definitely going to get a hybrid one. I've read a couple of these first drive and so far have basically all been very positive about the hybrid. The rims dont thrill me but its not a deal buster. The fact that I could drive to work and barely use any gas DOES thrill me. My drive to work is 7 miles city where the speed limit is 35mph and 7 miles on the freeway with a 55mph limit...if the mileage is as good as these reviewer say it is....I could go 3 weeks, maybe more, without a fill up.
Plus I get Ford A plan thanks to my father
The Fusion Hybrid is a very impressive achievement for Ford it appears. I wish it was a bit less expensive though I can understand why it will cost what it does. I'm still not a fan of the grill but I like everything else about the car.
- Mar 20, 2000
- 102,402
- 8,572
- 126
funny, all the magazines and websites really like the way the current mustang drives, often commenting that unless you hit some really big bumps mid corner you'll never know its back there. seems the people who harp about the lack of IRS are internet bench racers.
Arkaign
Lifer
- Oct 27, 2006
- 20,736
- 1,379
- 126
The Mustang handles fine. I ran around in an '07 GT last fall, and thrashed it pretty hard on some good side roads, and it acquitted itself very well. It wasn't the finest handling vehicle I've ever driven, but it was competent, stable, and there wasn't anything about the suspension that was wrong, particularly on a ~$25k car. It had a very solid, if slightly 'heavy' feel.
Arkaign
Lifer
- Oct 27, 2006
- 20,736
- 1,379
- 126
TBH, that sounds a little insane. Let's be honest, it'd have to be a pretty big bump, combined with extreme speed in the turn, to cause you to lose enough grip to spin off the road because of the live axle. In fact, if you were driving that hard, an IRS isn't going to magically save you, the difference really isn't that big a deal. The Mustangs with IRS don't magically handle worlds better than the ones that don't. You can compare cars that handle really really well (Lotus Elise/Exige, Corvette, Boxster, Cayman, Gallardo, R8, etc) to those that are cheap (Mazda3, Mustang, Camaro, etc), and you of course can see worlds of difference. There are countless factors other than whether it has IRS or not, that play into how well you're going to be able to handle the road.
IMO, weight, wheel width, and layout make more of a difference than the suspension setup in handling. And sometimes there's just an intangible waiting that surprises everyone.
it's because you're driving a diesel. i can get 43 mpg+ on the highway in my regular gasoline mkv jetta.
ViviTheMage
Lifer
Knavish
Senior member
- May 17, 2002
- 910
- 3
- 81
Yep Diesels are a bit more efficient, but you do get 10% more energy per volume than gasoline. 90%* 38 = 34, which is about average for a 4 cyl midsize sedan (highway). I'm guessing you should get high 20s to 30 in the city, too, which is very good. Unfortunately, the last time I drove past a gas station, 87 octane gas was $1.58 and diesel was $2.49.
theeedude
Lifer
- Feb 5, 2006
- 35,787
- 6,197
- 126
I wouldn't lump Mazda3 with Mustang and Camaro. My Mazda3 handles like a dream. Grip is tenacious, and when you do start to lose it, it's very progressive, controllable and neutral, even on the bumps. That is what a fine tuned IRS setup gets you. Even if one wheel hits a bump, it has no impact on the grip of another wheel as it does in a live axle or beam rear suspension. I had a beam rear suspension Maxima before, and the rear end was a lot more lively under sharp cornering on bumps. It did not inspire anywhere near the same level of confidence driving to my mountain bike rides in Santa Cruz mountains. And ultimately that's what it comes down to. You have to trust your suspension to deliver consistent handling, bumps or no bumps.
Arkaign
Lifer
- Oct 27, 2006
- 20,736
- 1,379
- 126
Yes, I like the Mazda3 and the C1 platform, it's very capable and manageable. The point was the advantages/drawbacks of the whole package, not just whether something has IRS or not. Due to the FF layout of the 3, it's not competitive with a good FR setup of approximately equal power/weight/tire, you have no ability to make throttle oversteer corrections, and then you have throttle-on understeer on curves. Most of the difference you're talking about with Maxima vs. 3 is weight, a lot of it, combined with the softer suspension setup and less performance-oriented weight distribution. Somewhat ironically, the difference in a FWD car with or without IRS is much reduced compared to a RWD car with or without IRS.
Lets put it another way. You have two identical hypothetical cars, one with IRS, one without, and a sweeping curve that you would normally drive at 35mph. The car with the IRS or without IRS, can both take the turn at 60-65mph safely. Now throw a pothole into the situation that will hit the inside rear wheel on the turn. This will cause a loss of grip in that corner on both cars immediately, and if you're at the limit already, you'll begin the process of recovery. This is where the IRS comes in, the identical car with IRS will not distribute that shock onto the outside rear wheel, meaning that it can recover slightly faster. If you're driving already at the outside limit of the car's ability in perfect conditions, both cars will leave the road at this point. What the advantage IRS gives will be fractional if all other elements are equal. Lets say that you know the road imperfection is there, and car A with IRS can enter the curve at 58mph, hit the defect, take a shorter time to recover, and exit the curve at 55mph. Car B without IRS can enter the curve at 56mph, hit the defect, take a slightly longer time to recover, and exit the curve at 53.5mph. Given that we don't hit gobs of defects on roads that it's sane to drive hard on, it makes a lot less difference to me than being able to use throttle oversteer to make corrections, or a LSD to maintain proper distribution of power to the wheels.
There are many elements of a car's performance that add up to a good package. Your Mazda3 is a great balance of things in an affordable and satisfying package. I too drive a FWD car, that was actually based upon the predecessor to the C1 platform, and can understand how the matchup in light weight, neutral handling characteristics, IRS, and low suspension throw add up to a fun recipe. This doesn't mean that there aren't significant disadvantages to having a FWD setup, to lacking a LSD, and so on, but it is what it is, and it works well for me.
To dismiss a vehicle entirely simply because it lacks an IRS is applying a zero-sum logic to a much more complex overall picture.
Some interesting professional tidbits on the above subject :
"The next best thing about the Mustang is that it now rides like a modern car. Less jarring crash-through, fewer expansion-strip jitters, no lateral wango-tango over broken pavement, less suspension-borne road noise. Yet even with the far cushier ride, handling has improved. Not even the most recent independent-rear-suspension SVT Cobra can match the new GT's skidpad grip, which now also surpasses a Nissan 350Z Touring's, come to think of it. Pitched hard into corners, the Mustang is initially neutral, then tends toward understeer. If the push annoys you, just stab the throttle and you can induce power oversteer. Neutral, understeer, oversteer. Quite a smorgasbord. And the tail-happiness now materializes more gently, rather than in one heart-stopping twitch. Throughout, extraneous body movements are nicely damped.
Gone is the nervousness of Mustangs of yore, and gone is the oh-so-annoying head toss that has historically been the trademark of live rear axles. In fact, every C/D tester peered at least once under our GT's rump to ensure there weren't a couple of pricey half-shafts whizzing around in there. You only notice the live axle at step-off, when you turn 90 degrees while simultaneously applying major throttle. Then the rear end briefly binds and skitters outward a few inches, feeling a trifle awkward, momentarily confused. It's amazing what conscientious engineers can do these days with solid axles. If you don't believe us, check out the latest Toyota 4Runner. Fact is, there's a precision to this Mustang's movements that makes the old car feel like Mr. Ed. Did we just say "precision" and "Mustang" in the same sentence?"
Lets put it another way. You have two identical hypothetical cars, one with IRS, one without, and a sweeping curve that you would normally drive at 35mph. The car with the IRS or without IRS, can both take the turn at 60-65mph safely. Now throw a pothole into the situation that will hit the inside rear wheel on the turn. This will cause a loss of grip in that corner on both cars immediately, and if you're at the limit already, you'll begin the process of recovery. This is where the IRS comes in, the identical car with IRS will not distribute that shock onto the outside rear wheel, meaning that it can recover slightly faster. If you're driving already at the outside limit of the car's ability in perfect conditions, both cars will leave the road at this point. What the advantage IRS gives will be fractional if all other elements are equal. Lets say that you know the road imperfection is there, and car A with IRS can enter the curve at 58mph, hit the defect, take a shorter time to recover, and exit the curve at 55mph. Car B without IRS can enter the curve at 56mph, hit the defect, take a slightly longer time to recover, and exit the curve at 53.5mph. Given that we don't hit gobs of defects on roads that it's sane to drive hard on, it makes a lot less difference to me than being able to use throttle oversteer to make corrections, or a LSD to maintain proper distribution of power to the wheels.
There are many elements of a car's performance that add up to a good package. Your Mazda3 is a great balance of things in an affordable and satisfying package. I too drive a FWD car, that was actually based upon the predecessor to the C1 platform, and can understand how the matchup in light weight, neutral handling characteristics, IRS, and low suspension throw add up to a fun recipe. This doesn't mean that there aren't significant disadvantages to having a FWD setup, to lacking a LSD, and so on, but it is what it is, and it works well for me.
To dismiss a vehicle entirely simply because it lacks an IRS is applying a zero-sum logic to a much more complex overall picture.
Some interesting professional tidbits on the above subject :
"The next best thing about the Mustang is that it now rides like a modern car. Less jarring crash-through, fewer expansion-strip jitters, no lateral wango-tango over broken pavement, less suspension-borne road noise. Yet even with the far cushier ride, handling has improved. Not even the most recent independent-rear-suspension SVT Cobra can match the new GT's skidpad grip, which now also surpasses a Nissan 350Z Touring's, come to think of it. Pitched hard into corners, the Mustang is initially neutral, then tends toward understeer. If the push annoys you, just stab the throttle and you can induce power oversteer. Neutral, understeer, oversteer. Quite a smorgasbord. And the tail-happiness now materializes more gently, rather than in one heart-stopping twitch. Throughout, extraneous body movements are nicely damped.
Gone is the nervousness of Mustangs of yore, and gone is the oh-so-annoying head toss that has historically been the trademark of live rear axles. In fact, every C/D tester peered at least once under our GT's rump to ensure there weren't a couple of pricey half-shafts whizzing around in there. You only notice the live axle at step-off, when you turn 90 degrees while simultaneously applying major throttle. Then the rear end briefly binds and skitters outward a few inches, feeling a trifle awkward, momentarily confused. It's amazing what conscientious engineers can do these days with solid axles. If you don't believe us, check out the latest Toyota 4Runner. Fact is, there's a precision to this Mustang's movements that makes the old car feel like Mr. Ed. Did we just say "precision" and "Mustang" in the same sentence?"
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