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First Clone baby birth claimed; It's a girl

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Originally posted by: Tominator
So, you are willing to jepordise the future of humanity for scientific research?
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Yes, I feel that is the only way out, straight ahead. There is no going back.

There are NO SUCCESSFUL INSTANCES OF SUCCESSFUL ANIMAL CLONEING!!!!!
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Dolly looked real enough to me. Ok, so she had flaws, those can be worked out over time...

Cloned animals DIE EARLY! From DISEASE that we cannot explain! They have ALL KINDS OF PROBLEMS yet to be explained!
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We can't explain Gulf War Syndrome either, does this mean we'll put wars on hold until we figure it out?

Don't be silly, we'll get it in due time...

Grasshopper
 
Originally posted by: HotChic
Grasshopper, your clone army thought... I don't think people would condone the government creating clone armies to prevent their sons and daughters from going to war. Those clones will HAVE to be somebody's sons and daughters. They'll have to be raised, grown up with someone. No different than adopted children. People won't want to see them go to war any more than they would want to see their genetic children going to war.
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I'm running under the assumption that these clones would be grown in cloning tanks and raised by the military. Their sole purpose for existance would be for combat, nothing more. Perhaps with a few batches we would figure out how to get them to grow faster, stronger, bigger, etc. They would never be raised by familes or have normal contact with the rest of us.

Grasshopper
 
Originally posted by: grasshopper26
Originally posted by: Tominator So, you are willing to jepordise the future of humanity for scientific research?
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Yes, I feel that is the only way out, straight ahead. There is no going back.
There are NO SUCCESSFUL INSTANCES OF SUCCESSFUL ANIMAL CLONEING!!!!!
Click to expand...
Dolly looked real enough to me. Ok, so she had flaws, those can be worked out over time...
Cloned animals DIE EARLY! From DISEASE that we cannot explain! They have ALL KINDS OF PROBLEMS yet to be explained!
Click to expand...
We can't explain Gulf War Syndrome either, does this mean we'll put wars on hold until we figure it out? Don't be silly, we'll get it in due time... Grasshopper
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You understand we could do all sorts of things to Thumper that would benefit medical knowlege right? Could expose her to all sorts of mutagens etc.

BTW, you ought to get out of this now, because you are really showing an extreme lack of knowlege of this field. Cloning humans for genetic studies is useless, besides cruel.
 
Originally posted by: Tominator
People like you scare the crap out of me?:|
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Fair enough, I can respect that opinion. 🙂

Of course I feel the same way about you, so all's fair... 😛

The thing is, we can't stop health problems by just bottling up technology, letting it out and moving foward is the only solution. Without experiments that were dangerous, Polio would never have been defeated.

Just one (of many) examples.

Grasshopper
 
Originally posted by: Hayabusarider
BTW, you ought to get out of this now, because you are really showing an extreme lack of knowlege of this field. Cloning humans for genetic studies is useless, besides cruel.
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I've followed Cloning with great interest since Dolly arrived. Still have the issue of Time with her on the cover.

I'm fimilar with the state-of-the-art with clones, I'm also aware of the problems. I don't think we're ready to clone humans, but the religious nuts will ban clones if we don't get a few clones out there first. Get a few out, make it impossible to ban their existance, and then we can take our time to research properly.

If the religious nuts would just back off, then I wouldn't be in such a hurry to see clones of humans come about right now. A lot of people feel this way too.

Grasshopper
 
Originally posted by: grasshopper26
Originally posted by: Hayabusarider BTW, you ought to get out of this now, because you are really showing an extreme lack of knowlege of this field. Cloning humans for genetic studies is useless, besides cruel.
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I've followed Cloning with great interest since Dolly arrived. Still have the issue of Time with her on the cover. I'm fimilar with the state-of-the-art with clones, I'm also aware of the problems. I don't think we're ready to clone humans, but the religious nuts will ban clones if we don't get a few clones out there first. Get a few out, make it impossible to ban their existance, and then we can take our time to research properly. If the religious nuts would just back off, then I wouldn't be in such a hurry to see clones of humans come about right now. A lot of people feel this way too. Grasshopper
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You follow, yet you do not understand. Religion has nothing to do with this.

So, lets start the lesson.

What is the advantage of cloning humans for studying DNA and genetics over animal models? What are the disadvantages from a practical standpoint? Justify it from a scientific perspective. Be specific.
 
Originally posted by: grasshopper26
Originally posted by: HotChic
Grasshopper, your clone army thought... I don't think people would condone the government creating clone armies to prevent their sons and daughters from going to war. Those clones will HAVE to be somebody's sons and daughters. They'll have to be raised, grown up with someone. No different than adopted children. People won't want to see them go to war any more than they would want to see their genetic children going to war.
Click to expand...

I'm running under the assumption that these clones would be grown in cloning tanks and raised by the military. Their sole purpose for existance would be for combat, nothing more. Perhaps with a few batches we would figure out how to get them to grow faster, stronger, bigger, etc. They would never be raised by familes or have normal contact with the rest of us.

Grasshopper
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Children don't thrive like that. Nazi experiments proved that babies die without a proper amount of touch. Children that are not properly socialized would be too unstable for war. People are not, despite the hollywood view, capable of being bred strictly for war. A clone army is a fantasy, not at all realistically possible.
 
Originally posted by: McPhreak
Originally posted by: vtqanh
Originally posted by: JellyBaby
If cloning becomes too popular would it not have an adverse affect on the gene pool? Genetic diversity is central to disease free, healthy evolution.
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I think that cloning is just an important step in science; there will come time when they can manipulate DNAs to eliminate disease; but cloning lies before that event in the timeline...

And Tominator, you can call me ignorant, too. Because i support cloning. It will help science greatly. If anything is wrong with it, it's just some religion stuff, which i could care less.
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I have a feeling the clones will begin to develop cancer and other age-related problems very early on in their life.

If you don't care about not cloning for the sake of society, don't clone for the sake of the clone itself. 😕

edit: oh BTW, I call BS on the whole "we have a live clone" ordeal. The woman who gave birth was probably fvcking around with one of the orderlies in the cult.
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Cancer is not an age-related problem. It's an environment and lifestyle related problem.
 
Originally posted by: Eli
Originally posted by: McPhreak
Originally posted by: vtqanh
Originally posted by: JellyBaby If cloning becomes too popular would it not have an adverse affect on the gene pool? Genetic diversity is central to disease free, healthy evolution.
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I think that cloning is just an important step in science; there will come time when they can manipulate DNAs to eliminate disease; but cloning lies before that event in the timeline... And Tominator, you can call me ignorant, too. Because i support cloning. It will help science greatly. If anything is wrong with it, it's just some religion stuff, which i could care less.
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I have a feeling the clones will begin to develop cancer and other age-related problems very early on in their life. If you don't care about not cloning for the sake of society, don't clone for the sake of the clone itself. 😕 edit: oh BTW, I call BS on the whole "we have a live clone" ordeal. The woman who gave birth was probably fvcking around with one of the orderlies in the cult.
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Cancer is not an age-related problem. It's an environment and lifestyle related problem.
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Sorry, but if you live long enough you will get cancer. The mechanisms for repairing cellular machinery break down. We call it aging. Yes lifestyle and environment effects things, but what I said holds true.
 
Originally posted by: grasshopper26
Originally posted by: Tominator
Cloning offers so many possible benefits for socity that it cannot just be put back in the bottle like the genie.
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More ignorance!
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How so? Cloning offers a chance to better understand DNA and genetics, it offers a chance for people to have children who otherwise could not. It offers a deeper understanding of life and how we work.

You can't put an invention back into the bottle, it just doesn't work that way. They can ban it all day long, but people will still do it.
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So instead of adopting one of millions of children, they should just clone them? There are other ways to make babies with out resorting to cloning. Look what Celine Dion did.

 
Originally posted by: Hayabusarider
Originally posted by: Eli
Originally posted by: McPhreak
Originally posted by: vtqanh
Originally posted by: JellyBaby If cloning becomes too popular would it not have an adverse affect on the gene pool? Genetic diversity is central to disease free, healthy evolution.
Click to expand...
I think that cloning is just an important step in science; there will come time when they can manipulate DNAs to eliminate disease; but cloning lies before that event in the timeline... And Tominator, you can call me ignorant, too. Because i support cloning. It will help science greatly. If anything is wrong with it, it's just some religion stuff, which i could care less.
Click to expand...
I have a feeling the clones will begin to develop cancer and other age-related problems very early on in their life. If you don't care about not cloning for the sake of society, don't clone for the sake of the clone itself. 😕 edit: oh BTW, I call BS on the whole "we have a live clone" ordeal. The woman who gave birth was probably fvcking around with one of the orderlies in the cult.
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Cancer is not an age-related problem. It's an environment and lifestyle related problem.
Click to expand...

Sorry, but if you live long enough you will get cancer. The mechanisms for repairing cellular machinery break down. We call it aging. Yes lifestyle and environment effects things, but what I said holds true.
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Err.... I wasn't aware that I was disagreeing with you.. 😛 None of your posts are in that quote block..

But I will one up you. How do you know that it isn't because of environment and lifestyle issues that the mechanisms for repairing cellular machinery break down?

Cancer isn't just part of life. There are many types of cancer, and we know what causes all but the strangest types. Many cultures have extremely low cancer rates, due to diet and lifestyle. The change was very well documented with the Japanese. They weren't introduced to the Western Diet until realitivly recently.
 
Originally posted by: Hayabusarider
You follow, yet you do not understand. Religion has nothing to do with this.
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Not true, I've seen your posts in the past about religion, you're already biased... 🙂

So, lets start the lesson.
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You're far from an expert on clones, you might well know as much as I do on the subject, but all that does is make us equals...

In any case, I would prefer to NOT have human clones right now, but we have to have them or the powers that be will ban it.

If we can get enough humans cloned in the next year, banning it will become nearly impossible. Then we can take our time with it...

Grasshopper
 
Originally posted by: grasshopper26
Originally posted by: Hayabusarider You follow, yet you do not understand. Religion has nothing to do with this.
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Not true, I've seen your posts in the past about religion, you're already biased... 🙂
So, lets start the lesson.
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You're far from an expert on clones, you might well know as much as I do on the subject, but all that does is make us equals... In any case, I would prefer to NOT have human clones right now, but we have to have them or the powers that be will ban it. If we can get enough humans cloned in the next year, banning it will become nearly impossible. Then we can take our time with it... Grasshopper
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Tell me what my educational background is.
 
Originally posted by: Hayabusarider
Naa, Eli. My response to was informational, not critical 😉
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See my edit. 😉

You seem like you know quite a bit about this stuff. Since our bodies build themselves from the things we eat, don't you agree that if we are defficent in anything we need, that could be the reason for the broken or disfunctioning mechanism? Diet is the one thing that effects your life as a whole the most, and here people are eating McDonalds and Butterfingers.

You can only be as healthy as the things you eat. Do you agree with that statement?

On a chemical level, we don't even claim to begin to understand how our bodies work.... Not as a whole, at least.
 
Originally posted by: HotChic
Children don't thrive like that. Nazi experiments proved that babies die without a proper amount of touch. Children that are not properly socialized would be too unstable for war. People are not, despite the hollywood view, capable of being bred strictly for war. A clone army is a fantasy, not at all realistically possible.
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Ok, fair enough...

Then what if we develop the process far enough so that we can grow adult clones? If they are say equal to about 18 years old physically when they are "born", then all we need to do is learn how to implant memory into their brains.

Ok, that is a far cry from my original idea, but if the original idea wouldn't work, what about this?

Back to the original idea, the goverment could run family units that consisted of 1 military officer to each 20 or so clones. They would watch over them and provide a "family unit" to keep everything in check. Run the place like a boarding house or foster home.

Remember that we're trying to get all the feeling OUT of these people, not make them more caring. We need them to follow orders, fight and die without question, etc. Their mental health is only a concern as far as that goes. They won't live long enough for any of the rest of it to matter.

I'll repeat again, just in case anyone has forgotten (or didn't read the other thread): I'm not saying this is a good idea/bad idea, I am not addressing the moral issues, I'm just dealing with it on a pratical level, nothing else.

Grasshopper
 
Originally posted by: SSP
So instead of adopting one of millions of children, they should just clone them? There are other ways to make babies with out resorting to cloning. Look what Celine Dion did.
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Yes, but that isn't for you to decide. If a couple wants to have kids of their own, from their own genetic background, cloning might be their only option.

The same can be said about In-vetro as well, yet that is now a very accepted means of having children.

Grasshopper
 
Originally posted by: Eli
Originally posted by: Hayabusarider Naa, Eli. My response to was informational, not critical 😉
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See my edit. 😉 You seem like you know quite a bit about this stuff. Since our bodies build themselves from the things we eat, don't you agree that if we are defficent in anything we need, that could be the reason for the broken or disfunctioning mechanism? Diet is the one thing that effects your life as a whole the most, and here people are eating McDonalds and Butterfingers. You can only be as healthy as the things you eat. Do you agree with that statement? On a chemical level, we don't even claim to begin to understand how our bodies work....
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I do agree that what you do influenced you health. Garbage in, you get to be garbage
 
Originally posted by: grasshopper26
Originally posted by: Hayabusarider Also, you did not answer my question. Do not obfuscate.
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What was your question again?
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Now why did I expect this?

I really dont care that you have an opinion, but we are on the verge of altering who we are at the most fundamental biological level, and you are totally unencumbered by data. People out there today are using techniques that virtually guarantee a horrible death to whomever is subject to their lack of ethics for no other reason than to be first, or to satisfy some race car driver who saw Jesus in a UFO. Reckless. To save you the time, humans make lousy organisms to study for a number of reasons even if you had the morals of a Hitler. Generation time alone. Also there is something called homology. Basically, it says genes are conserved through the species and if you map them you can see that. You said it yourself in another thread although you did not know what you were saying. Remember the chimps and their percentage of DNA that matches humans? Guess what? ANY mammal does. Even yeast has quite a lot of homology. Eukaryotic cells also have a lot in common. You could study the clipping of telomeres or how signal transduction may differ in lower life and it would apply to humans as well. You know all this of course. I am done fencing with you over this. Bye.

PS bet you sharpie enhanced your gels in grad school
 
Sure, all that may well be true, but none of it overrides my point...

We have to get clones out into the world to make it impossible to ban cloning. If we don't, this could set back humanity for a long time.

You want to help? Get the people who are AFRAID of change off the backs of those working on this and let them do their jobs. I'm all for taking time and getting the cloning thing down pat first, but if you ban human clones outright, what choice do they have?

Grasshopper
 
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