First Amendment no big deal, students say

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: bamacre
I agree these finding are horrible, and dangerous. However, I don't see how this has anything to do with the current administration.

I hear a few crickets chirping, that's about it. 😕

Well, there is this idea, true of not, that the right (including Bush and Co) thinks that it is way more important to fall into line than to speak your mind or exercise your freedoms. I guess the idea is that this attitude is spilling over into high schools.

While I think there is a little too much desire from the right for everyone to march in step, I don't think the problem in high schools is due to that...and I don't think blaming the left is accurate either. Remember high school? Remember the students? High school is very much a place where self expression and being different are stomped on...not by anyone running the place, but by students themselves. It's not that they are stupid, it's that they are teenagers, a group of people that have NEVER, in the history of the universe, been tolerant and open. The idea that people should be able to express opinions that differ from the group doesn't really fit in high school. What I remember from high school is that anyone who acted or thought different was "weird" and we made fun of them and they sat alone at lunch. The idea of respecting their different opinions and ideas was something very few of us ever thought about.

Looking back, I feel bad about it now, but I can see why high schoolers don't exactly value freedom of speech or expression, it's not in their nature, and it never has been.

But this is transcending the typical high school peer pressure affect.

Only half of the students said newspapers should be allowed to publish freely without government approval of stories.

That has nothing to do with peer pressure most kids find themselves under each and every day.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: bamacre
Conjur, you are spot on the subject of this thread, these findings are a result of this administration and the religious zealots that control and runit.

Our schools are now run by the Radical Religious, and this is what we get and deserve, well....

Fixed for you

Since religion corresponds to education...

You heaven't seen all the Christian schools pop up in addition to Catholic Schools???

Don't say there is no correlation between the public schools and these either, the kids still all associate with each other especially after school with sporting events.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: conjur
Topic Title: First Amendment no big deal, students say

Sadly after seeing this study is certainly looking like putting a nail on America's coffin.

Not much hope for it's survival now. 🙁

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: bamacre
Conjur, you are spot on the subject of this thread, these findings are a result of this administration and the religious zealots that control and runit.

Our schools are now run by the Radical Religious, and this is what we get and deserve, well....

Fixed for you

Since religion corresponds to education...

You heaven't seen all the Christian schools pop up in addition to Catholic Schools???

Don't say there is no correlation between the public schools and these either, the kids still all associate with each other especially after school with sporting events.

That is little more than a conjecture on your behalf.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: bamacre
Conjur, you are spot on the subject of this thread, these findings are a result of this administration and the religious zealots that control and runit.

Our schools are now run by the Radical Religious, and this is what we get and deserve, well....

Fixed for you

Now, if we can just get someone to fix you...

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: bamacre
Conjur, you are spot on the subject of this thread, these findings are a result of this administration and the religious zealots that control and runit.

Our schools are now run by the Radical Religious, and this is what we get and deserve, well....

Fixed for you

Now, if we can just get someone to fix you...

Don't you find it humorous that those on the left are attempting to convince others that the education system in this country is controlled by the "Radical Right" when, in reality, it is one of the most liberal areas of our society?

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: bamacre
Conjur, you are spot on the subject of this thread, these findings are a result of this administration and the religious zealots that control and runit.

Our schools are now run by the Radical Religious, and this is what we get and deserve, well....

Fixed for you

Now, if we can just get someone to fix you...

Don't you find it humorous that those on the left are attempting to convince others that the education system in this country is controlled by the "Radical Right" when, in reality, the education is one of the most liberal areas of our society?

Humorous? Yes. Surprised? Not really.

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: bamacre
Conjur, you are spot on the subject of this thread, these findings are a result of this administration and the religious zealots that control and runit.

Our schools are now run by the Radical Religious, and this is what we get and deserve, well....

Fixed for you

Now, if we can just get someone to fix you...

Don't you find it humorous that those on the left are attempting to convince others that the education system in this country is controlled by the "Radical Right" when, in reality, the education is one of the most liberal areas of our society?

Humorous? Yes. Surprised? Not really.

This is Dave we are talking about here. When has being ignorant about something ever stopped him from commenting about it?

I think that the ironic part is that the liberals, long proponents of "individual freedoms", are now trying to cram public education down our throats and fighting private education efforts at every possible turn (homeschooling, vouchers, private school, etc.)

I guess it's time I start calling them leftists/socialists, cause they betrayed the majority of their liberal causes long ago. (Just like the conservatives did - only that was more recent) 😀

Dave, can you please help me make up some nickname/acronym for them?

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: bamacre
Conjur, you are spot on the subject of this thread, these findings are a result of this administration and the religious zealots that control and runit.

Our schools are now run by the Radical Religious, and this is what we get and deserve, well....

Fixed for you

Now, if we can just get someone to fix you...

Don't you find it humorous that those on the left are attempting to convince others that the education system in this country is controlled by the "Radical Right" when, in reality, the education is one of the most liberal areas of our society?

Humorous? Yes. Surprised? Not really.

This is Dave we are talking about here. When has being ignorant about something ever stopped him from commenting about it?

Obviously, never.

 

[jackschmittusa]

I went to a plain vanilla public hs in the 60s. You had to pass every subject to receive credit for it, and had to have a minimum number of credits to graduate. U.S. history and civics (government) were required courses. The teachers did not teach to pass any standardized test, and exams were almost always created by the teachers themselves. We had lots of classroom discussions and wrote a lot of essays which had the effect of making you think about the material. I believe that in general, the public school system used to work rather well. I see no reason to believe that it can not be fixed. The article in the original post shows that there are striking flaws in the way the system works now. If we wait too long to fix them, it won't matter anymore, because no one will care, or even realize that they should.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
I went to a plain vanilla public hs in the 60s. You had to pass every subject to receive credit for it, and had to have a minimum number of credits to graduate. U.S. history and civics (government) were required courses. The teachers did not teach to pass any standardized test, and exams were almost always created by the teachers themselves. We had lots of classroom discussions and wrote a lot of essays which had the effect of making you think about the material. I believe that in general, the public school system used to work rather well. I see no reason to believe that it can not be fixed. The article in the original post shows that there are striking flaws in the way the system works now. If we wait too long to fix them, it won't matter anymore, because no one will care, or even realize that they should.

Considering their reasons for these findings, the numbers will improve by themselves as soon as Bush is gone from office.

Seriously though, I agree with what you say. It would be easier to solve if this were our only problem with the school system.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: alchemize

I think that the ironic part is that the liberals, long proponents of "individual freedoms", are now trying to cram public education down our throats and fighting private education efforts at every possible turn (homeschooling, vouchers, private school, etc.)

I guess it's time I start calling them leftists/socialists, cause they betrayed the majority of their liberal causes long ago. (Just like the conservatives did - only that was more recent) 😀

Dave, can you please help me make up some nickname/acronym for them?

Easy, Patriots.

Something the Radical Right has no idea what that means.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: bamacre
I agree these finding are horrible, and dangerous. However, I don't see how this has anything to do with the current administration.

I hear a few crickets chirping, that's about it. 😕

Well, there is this idea, true of not, that the right (including Bush and Co) thinks that it is way more important to fall into line than to speak your mind or exercise your freedoms. I guess the idea is that this attitude is spilling over into high schools.

While I think there is a little too much desire from the right for everyone to march in step, I don't think the problem in high schools is due to that...and I don't think blaming the left is accurate either. Remember high school? Remember the students? High school is very much a place where self expression and being different are stomped on...not by anyone running the place, but by students themselves. It's not that they are stupid, it's that they are teenagers, a group of people that have NEVER, in the history of the universe, been tolerant and open. The idea that people should be able to express opinions that differ from the group doesn't really fit in high school. What I remember from high school is that anyone who acted or thought different was "weird" and we made fun of them and they sat alone at lunch. The idea of respecting their different opinions and ideas was something very few of us ever thought about.

Looking back, I feel bad about it now, but I can see why high schoolers don't exactly value freedom of speech or expression, it's not in their nature, and it never has been.

I'm not going to respond to what is not in bold, because High school has been that way before Bush was even added to this world.

In regards to what I put in bold, are you saying that high schoolers are getting their political education through newspapers and other forms of media, OR, are you saying that new high school caricula have been put in place by the Bsh administration?

I'm NOT blaming Bush...or the media for that matter. I'm blaming how I've observed high school students to behave. Maybe my views on that are affected by my particular high school, and maybe it's not true everywhere, but that's what I've observed.

Regarding my comments that you bolded, I agree that high school students have been that way for a while (IMHO). I am saying that SOME people apparently think Bush (or the evil libs) are giving our high school students a different perspective. I disagree, I don't think high school has changed as much as some people think. I DO, however, think there is too much of a feeling from SOME of the right that we all need to be marching in step, and if we think differently than the "majority", we should just shut up about it. Don't get me wrong, I'm opposed to that idea, but I don't think that attitude is anything new in high school...it wasn't at mine.

Edit: Added "some" to make it clear I don't view everyone on the right that way.

 

[Genx87]

UND

boooo!

Go Bison 🙂

 

[KevinH]

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
Public schools are terrible. Hell I hated my high school, but once I went to a private university, I saw how crappy it really was. I honestly slept-walked through high school, doing lots of pot 🙂D), playing a lot of StarCraft and banging hoes. I can't remember one piece of information that I got from HS that I actually used in college.

By the same token I felt that way about undergrad as well.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: Train

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Train

Originally posted by: Dissipate
and sent student data off to the recruiting office for the recruiters to get leads.

how is this any different than what colleges do? Colleges send mailings to HS students, and HS send student data to colleges. About 95% of military members decided to join without the aid of a recruiter.

Most colleges, even those subsidized by the government, do not have their students become hired guns for a group of men (mostly white, middle aged, college educated lawyers I might add) who monopolize force over a given geographic region.

I feel bad for you, I really do.

I feel bad for you. I really do. Always faithful to a group of gangsters/thugs.

 

[KevinH]

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: bamacre
Conjur, you are spot on the subject of this thread, these findings are a result of this administration and the religious zealots that control and runit.

Our schools are now run by the Radical Religious, and this is what we get and deserve, well....

Fixed for you

Now, if we can just get someone to fix you...

Don't you find it humorous that those on the left are attempting to convince others that the education system in this country is controlled by the "Radical Right" when, in reality, it is one of the most liberal areas of our society?

Easy skippy. To consider dmcowen representative of anything but a small minority of the left is like calling halospumas the voice of the right.

 

[Tommunist]

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
I went to a plain vanilla public hs in the 60s. You had to pass every subject to receive credit for it, and had to have a minimum number of credits to graduate. U.S. history and civics (government) were required courses. The teachers did not teach to pass any standardized test, and exams were almost always created by the teachers themselves. We had lots of classroom discussions and wrote a lot of essays which had the effect of making you think about the material. I believe that in general, the public school system used to work rather well. I see no reason to believe that it can not be fixed. The article in the original post shows that there are striking flaws in the way the system works now. If we wait too long to fix them, it won't matter anymore, because no one will care, or even realize that they should.

issues that are killing teacher's ability to teach the way you remember it...

1. forcing teachers to teach to a standarized test that may or may not reflect what is important
2. parents who blame all their kids academic problems on the school instead of offering the proper support at home
3. a zillion teaching fads where teachers are required to teach in a way that they perhaps aren't good at or regardless of the teacher, won't teach the kids well
4. schools just passing kids to keep the parents off their backs (witnessed this one myself)

add in the low pay and who wants to attempt to teach in rather sh!tty conditions? I know I wouldn't.

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: KevinH
Easy skippy. To consider dmcowen representative of anything but a small minority of the left is like calling halospumas the voice of the right.

I didn't say "the entire left." I said "those on the left." That's a small, inclusive group.

 

[jackschmittusa]

A teacher spending much of the classromm time teaching to a standardized test is idiotic. If the kids just learn the basic material, they will pass the test. I live in Ohio and for some time now, you have had to pass a 9th grade proficiency test to graduate (still scratching my head as to why it is not a 12th grade test). Our local newspaper once published some sample questions representitive of the test. They were pathetically easy questions. I swear, I could have answered all of the questions by the time I'd finished 4th or 5th grade. (i.e. A staute on a pedestal is placed on a table. The table is 2½ feet high. The pedestal is 8 inches high. The statue is 2 feet, 7 inches tall. What is the total height from the floor to the top of the statue in feet and inches?) Other questions required a similar level of understanding of the subject matter to answer. Yet every year people complain that the test is too hard because their kid failed.

And parents are a very big part of the problem. Several years ago, my daughter-in-law taught grade school in the inner city in Columbus, Ohio. Young and sure she could make a difference in the world, she took it upon herself to visit the parents at home of students doing poorly. She intended to offer guidance and to point out various community resources that might be of value. She was heartbroken at the response she got. Some people were upset that she had bothered them. Some told her that is was her job to teach the kids, not theirs. Some just didn't seem to think the issue was very important.

The teaching fads are a joke. I remember when my kids were learning the "new math". I wondered why. The "old math" and some sliderules gave us the Apollo equipment and the SR-71. Astounding engineering feats, even by today's standards. And the false self esteem that schools try to instill in students is a crime. Not keeping score in sports, eliminating spelling bees, etc. so there are never any "losers". Giving excellence awards to every kid in the class so that even the poorest achievers are acknowledged. Good prep for the real world where losers and poor achievers are left behind.

I could ramble on for a lot longer about dumbed-down and PC textbooks, lack of disipline, etc.. So many recognisable problems and no one implimenting solutions.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
A teacher spending much of the classromm time teaching to a standardized test is idiotic. If the kids just learn the basic material, they will pass the test. I live in Ohio and for some time now, you have had to pass a 9th grade proficiency test to graduate (still scratching my head as to why it is not a 12th grade test). Our local newspaper once published some sample questions representitive of the test. They were pathetically easy questions. I swear, I could have answered all of the questions by the time I'd finished 4th or 5th grade. (i.e. A staute on a pedestal is placed on a table. The table is 2½ feet high. The pedestal is 8 inches high. The statue is 2 feet, 7 inches tall. What is the total height from the floor to the top of the statue in feet and inches?) Other questions required a similar level of understanding of the subject matter to answer. Yet every year people complain that the test is too hard because their kid failed.

And parents are a very big part of the problem. Several years ago, my daughter-in-law taught grade school in the inner city in Columbus, Ohio. Young and sure she could make a difference in the world, she took it upon herself to visit the parents at home of students doing poorly. She intended to offer guidance and to point out various community resources that might be of value. She was heartbroken at the response she got. Some people were upset that she had bothered them. Some told her that is was her job to teach the kids, not theirs. Some just didn't seem to think the issue was very important.

The teaching fads are a joke. I remember when my kids were learning the "new math". I wondered why. The "old math" and some sliderules gave us the Apollo equipment and the SR-71. Astounding engineering feats, even by today's standards. And the false self esteem that schools try to instill in students is a crime. Not keeping score in sports, eliminating spelling bees, etc. so there are never any "losers". Giving excellence awards to every kid in the class so that even the poorest achievers are acknowledged. Good prep for the real world where losers and poor achievers are left behind.

I could ramble on for a lot longer about dumbed-down and PC textbooks, lack of disipline, etc.. So many recognisable problems and no one implimenting solutions.

:beer::thumbsup:

CsG

 

[ntdz]

Originally posted by: conjur
Study shows American teenagers indifferent to freedoms
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6888837/

WASHINGTON - The way many high school students see it, government censorship of newspapers may not be a bad thing, and flag burning is hardly protected free speech.

It turns out the First Amendment is a second-rate issue to many of those nearing their own adult independence, according to a study of high school attitudes released Monday.

The original amendment to the Constitution is the cornerstone of the way of life in the United States, promising citizens the freedoms of religion, speech, press and assembly.

Yet, when told of the exact text of the First Amendment, more than one in three high school students said it goes ?too far? in the rights it guarantees. Only half of the students said newspapers should be allowed to publish freely without government approval of stories.

?These results are not only disturbing; they are dangerous,? said Hodding Carter III, president of the John S. and James L. Knight Foundation, which sponsored the $1 million study. ?Ignorance about the basics of this free society is a danger to our nation?s future.?

The students are even more restrictive in their views than their elders, the study says.

When asked whether people should be allowed to express unpopular views, 97 percent of teachers and 99 percent of school principals said yes. Only 83 percent of students did.

Indifference, misunderstanding
The results reflected indifference, with almost three in four students saying they took the First Amendment for granted or didn?t know how they felt about it. It was also clear that many students do not understand what is protected by the bedrock of the Bill of Rights.

Three in four students said flag burning is illegal. It?s not. About half the students said the government can restrict any indecent material on the Internet. It can?t.

?Schools don?t do enough to teach the First Amendment. Students often don?t know the rights it protects,? Linda Puntney, executive director of the Journalism Education Association, said in the report. ?This all comes at a time when there is decreasing passion for much of anything. And, you have to be passionate about the First Amendment.?

The partners in the project, including organizations of newspaper editors and radio and television news directors, share a clear advocacy for First Amendment issues.

Federal and state officials, meanwhile, have bemoaned a lack of knowledge of U.S. civics and history among young people. Sen. Robert Byrd, D-W.Va., has even pushed through a mandate that schools must teach about the Constitution on Sept. 17, the date it was signed in 1787.

The survey, conducted by researchers at the University of Connecticut, is billed as the largest of its kind. More than 100,000 students, nearly 8,000 teachers and more than 500 administrators at 544 public and private high schools took part in early 2004.

Lack of education
The study suggests that students embrace First Amendment freedoms if they are taught about them and given a chance to practice them, but schools don?t make the matter a priority.

Students who take part in school media activities, such as a student newspapers or TV production, are much more likely to support expression of unpopular views, for example.

About nine in 10 principals said it is important for all students to learn some journalism skills, but most administrators say a lack of money limits their media offerings.

More than one in five schools offer no student media opportunities; of the high schools that do not offer student newspapers, 40 percent have eliminated them in the last five years.

?The last 15 years have not been a golden era for student media,? said Warren Watson, director of the J-Ideas project at Ball State University in Indiana. ?Programs are under siege or dying from neglect. Many students do not get the opportunity to practice our basic freedoms.?

Keep them in ignorance and they will follow blindly along.

Wonder if they'll change their stance when they're ignorant butts are drafted to serve in battle in Iran or Syria.

hmm, and young people tend to vote liberal. This is Connecticut, a liberal state, too. Now I'm starting to understand, liberals are ignorant. You called them igornant, I'm pointing out who these "ignorant" people tend to vote for and where they came from.

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
And parents are a very big part of the problem.

Truer words have never been spoken (or typed).

 

[CycloWizard]

?The last 15 years have not been a golden era for student media,? said Warren Watson, director of the J-Ideas project at Ball State University in Indiana. ?Programs are under siege or dying from neglect. Many students do not get the opportunity to practice our basic freedom"

BSU is in Muncie, IN and gets fed by my high school and others like it. She ought to know how bad it really is.

 

[alchemize]

I was discussing this with my wife last night. It would be fascinating to see the results from homeschooled kids and private school kids in comparison. The Left (Patriots, as Dave calls them) would never bother to consider that however.