Firearms and Dementia

[Paladin3]

It is kind of amazing to me that after all this you don’t understand the point I’ve stated extremely clearly probably half a dozen times. If personal safety isn’t why you own a gun then why are you bothering to chime in on this argument as that’s entirely what I’ve been talking about? Lol.

You guys are so hard wired into reflexive defenses of your gun ownership that you never bother to actually read what other people are saying.

You are arguing on a technicality. Owning a gun make a small fraction of a percent more likely to be hurt with one than not owning one. That is a fact that needs no arguing, but it does not mean owning a gun is something YOU should get to tell other law-abiding citizens they can't do.

And since there is no possible way to ban all guns, and no political or majority public will to do so beyond the current restrictions and bans already in place, I don't know why you keep repeating your mantra "guns make you less safe." What is your motive for doing so? Further "reasonable" gun control (reasonable to who)? A partial ban? Complete ban?

So keep telling me I have no place in this discussion because I bring up points you can't argue around. Keep telling me organizations like the NRA have no legit purpose. I've never been an NRA supporter in my life, but if they are on the opposite side of this issue from the idiocy of believing we can simply ban guns to end our gun problem then I am starting to feel like they are the lesser of two evils and who I need to really be supporting.

If "owning a gun makes you less safe" is all you have to say, then we got it and you can move on now. Or do you have a deeper agenda.

 

[fskimospy]

You are arguing on a technicality. Owning a gun make a small fraction of a percent more likely to be hurt with one than not owning one. That is a fact that needs no arguing, but it does not mean owning a gun is something YOU should get to tell other law-abiding citizens they can't do.

And since there is no possible way to ban all guns, and no political or majority public will to do so beyond the current restrictions and bans already in place, I don't know why you keep repeating your mantra "guns make you less safe." What is your motive for doing so? Further "reasonable" gun control (reasonable to who)? A partial ban? Complete ban?

So keep telling me I have no place in this discussion because I bring up points you can't argue around. Keep telling me organizations like the NRA have no legit purpose. I've never been an NRA supporter in my life, but if they are on the opposite side of this issue from the idiocy of believing we can simply ban guns to end our gun problem then I am starting to feel like they are the lesser of two evils and who I need to really be supporting.

If "owning a gun makes you less safe" is all you have to say, then we got it and you can move on now. Or do you have a deeper agenda.

Seems like I was pretty spot on, this is just reflexive defenses of gun ownership that have nothing to do with the discussion being had.

Your points are easy enough to refute (I’ve done it before), but they are irrelevant to this discussion. The relevant point here is that it doesn’t matter if owning a gun makes you 0.00000001% less safe, if the average person is buying it for self defense they are making a foolish decision and should instead not own one. Personal protection is by far the most commonly cited reason for buying a gun so it stands to reason that large numbers of people are making bad decisions. It’s only rational to want to help with that.

If you’re angry because you don’t like my position on gun control and that makes you want to support the NRA then that’s your business. This is the same nonsense where conservatives tried to claim they only supported Trump because liberals were mean to them. Support them or don’t support them, I don’t care, but at least own your decision.

I’m only telling you guys the facts. If they upset you maybe you should ask yourself why.

 

[blackangst1]

It is kind of amazing to me that after all this you don’t understand the point I’ve stated extremely clearly probably half a dozen times. If personal safety isn’t why you own a gun then why are you bothering to chime in on this argument as that’s entirely what I’ve been talking about? Lol.

You guys are so hard wired into reflexive defenses of your gun ownership that you never bother to actually read what other people are saying.

So people will buy guns for sport. Then what?

 

[fskimospy]

So people will buy guns for sport. Then what?

That's fine, plenty of other countries have provisions for that. If you're buying it for sport you most likely don't need to keep it in the home, for example.

Regardless, this is nitpicking silliness that is unrelated to my point in this thread. If you want to start a new thread about the feasibility of banning all guns that's fine but here we can just talk about the reason the most people buy guns. Imagine how many lives we could save if people just started applying logic to their personal defense gun purchases.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Seems like I was pretty spot on, this is just reflexive defenses of gun ownership that have nothing to do with the discussion being had.

Your points are easy enough to refute (I’ve done it before), but they are irrelevant to this discussion. The relevant point here is that it doesn’t matter if owning a gun makes you 0.00000001% less safe, if the average person is buying it for self defense they are making a foolish decision and should instead not own one. Personal protection is by far the most commonly cited reason for buying a gun so it stands to reason that large numbers of people are making bad decisions. It’s only rational to want to help with that.

If you’re angry because you don’t like my position on gun control and that makes you want to support the NRA then that’s your business. This is the same nonsense where conservatives tried to claim they only supported Trump because liberals were mean to them. Support them or don’t support them, I don’t care, but at least own your decision.

I’m only telling you guys the facts. If they upset you maybe you should ask yourself why.

You keep running with this sky high overall average that suggests owning a gun makes one less safe. I imagine owning a knife may make one more likely to get cut, owning a car may make one more likely to get into an accident. I'm sure your stats use suicides by gun when creating the statistic. Overall this stat is meaningless. Is this another stat that is collected by cold calls?

Regardless, it's great from a 100 mile high perspective, but it doesn't mean a thing to individual situations that vary considerably. And there are many people that are alive today because they own a gun that would disagree with it making them, in their situation, less safe.

I own several guns, and like most gun owners the guns have never hurt me and I've never had to use one defensively.

 

[fskimospy]

You keep running with this sky high overall average that suggests owning a gun makes one less safe. I imagine owning a knife may make one more likely to get cut, owning a car may make one more likely to get into an accident.

This dumb argument has already been tried and has failed. People do not purchase cars for self defense, unlike guns.

I'm sure your stats use suicides by gun when creating the statistic. Overall this stat is meaningless.

You are at higher risk of being the victim of both suicide AND homicide and this has been told to you before and backed up with empirical research. Do you have difficulty retaining information?

Is this another stat that is collected by cold calls?

You mean scientific polling, haha.

Regardless, it's great from a 100 mile high perspective, but it doesn't mean a thing to individual situations that vary considerably. And there are many people that are alive today because they own a gun that would disagree with it making them, in their situation, less safe.

I own several guns, and like most gun owners the guns have never hurt me and I've never had to use one defensively.

We are talking about nationwide policy so talking in averages is the only way that makes sense. Sadly you're just showing yet again that you argue based on feelings and emotion instead of facts and logic like I do. I hope you're able to do better in the future.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Same bs. I'd like to see how owning guns makes one more likely to be a victim of homicide. I'd like to see that broken down into people living alone vs. with a domestic partner / spouse, I'd like to see the breakdown by where one lives. I'd like to see evidence that correlation created causation. Maybe some of those that bought guns were at relatively high risk of homicide depending on where they live. Anti-gun stats are skewed just like drug statistics are. Even in the best case for your argument, even if I accept it 100% for argument's sake, you're talking about a fraction of a percentage in the overall picture.

 

[fskimospy]

Same bs. I'd like to see how owning guns makes one more likely to be a victim of homicide. I'd like to see that broken down into people living alone vs. with a domestic partner / spouse, I'd like to see the breakdown by where one lives. I'd like to see evidence that correlation created causation. Maybe some of those that bought guns were at relatively high risk of homicide depending on where they live. Anti-gun stats are skewed just like drug statistics are. Even in the best case for your argument, even if I accept it 100% for argument's sake, you're talking about a fraction of a percentage in the overall picture.

I've already shown you the evidence before and it controls for exactly the sort of things you're questioning again now such as location and crime rate. That means you were too lazy or too emotionally invested to read it the first time.

Look, you don't know what you're talking about and it's obvious you don't care to learn. For you it's all about the feels and you feel like you need guns. That's fine, it's obvious there's no reaching people like you because you're too irrational. Why not just come out and admit you don't care about the facts and you want your guns? Are you embarrassed?

 

[SlowSpyder]

I've already shown you the evidence before and it controls for exactly the sort of things you're questioning again now such as location and crime rate. That means you were too lazy or too emotionally invested to read it the first time.

Look, you don't know what you're talking about and it's obvious you don't care to learn. For you it's all about the feels and you feel like you need guns. That's fine, it's obvious there's no reaching people like you because you're too irrational. Why not just come out and admit you don't care about the facts and you want your guns? Are you embarrassed?

Another nothing reply with you saying guns are bad and you don't care for me. < sigh >

 

[fskimospy]

Another nothing reply with you saying guns are bad and you don't care for me. < sigh >

Nope, a reply noting you’ve gotten exactly what you’re asking for in the past and you ignored it.

You’re right I don’t care for you though as you aren’t an honest person and you know it.

 

[SlowSpyder]

How many times are guns used in self defense?

 

[fskimospy]

How many times are guns used in self defense?

Irrelevant as to whether or not owning a gun increases your homicide or suicide risk factor as that would already be factored in.

In addition, research indicates that as many as half or even more of self-reported defensive gun use are crimes in and of themselves. This is even after accepting the individual's description of their behavior as entirely factual when it would naturally be biased in their favor.

 

[Paladin3]

You keep running with this sky high overall average that suggests owning a gun makes one less safe. I imagine owning a knife may make one more likely to get cut, owning a car may make one more likely to get into an accident. I'm sure your stats use suicides by gun when creating the statistic. Overall this stat is meaningless. Is this another stat that is collected by cold calls?

Regardless, it's great from a 100 mile high perspective, but it doesn't mean a thing to individual situations that vary considerably. And there are many people that are alive today because they own a gun that would disagree with it making them, in their situation, less safe.

I own several guns, and like most gun owners the guns have never hurt me and I've never had to use one defensively.

Let it go, man. This discussion is in no way a productive debate. He'll never address the points we are making, and will just keep spewing the same "owning guns makes you (statistically a tiny fraction of a percent) less safe" BS. He and others think they know what's right for other people and that they have the right to tell law abiding citizens what to do. I can smell his smug all the way across the Internet.

We don't need to justify our choice to own firearms to anyone. This is still a country where constitutional rights can't be stripped from a person without due process, no mater how much they'd like to change that. And, in the end, the public will and votes are on our side.

 

[whm1974]

Let it go, man. This discussion is in no way a productive debate. He'll never address the points we are making, and will just keep spewing the same "owning guns makes you (statistically a tiny fraction of a percent) less safe" BS. He and others think they know what's right for other people and that they have the right to tell law abiding citizens what to do. I can smell his smug all the way across the Internet.

We don't need to justify our choice to own firearms to anyone. This is still a country where constitutional rights can't be stripped from a person without due process, no mater how much they'd like to change that. And, in the end, the public will and votes are on our side.

Agreed, and there is nothing wrong with owning guns even for self defense.

 

[fskimospy]

Let it go, man. This discussion is in no way a productive debate. He'll never address the points we are making, and will just keep spewing the same "owning guns makes you (statistically a tiny fraction of a percent) less safe" BS. He and others think they know what's right for other people and that they have the right to tell law abiding citizens what to do. I can smell his smug all the way across the Internet.

We don't need to justify our choice to own firearms to anyone. This is still a country where constitutional rights can't be stripped from a person without due process, no mater how much they'd like to change that. And, in the end, the public will and votes are on our side.

If you have made a single, solitary point that’s relevant to the discussion which went unaddressed I would love to hear it.

What you actually did is raise a bunch of unrelated points because you know I’m right on the central one.

I genuinely do not understand why gun owners are so emotional about this. If the facts said owning a gun was a good idea that would be fine with me. They don’t though, so I’m curious as to why gun rights people are so furious about this fact.

 

[fskimospy]

Agreed, and there is nothing wrong with owning guns even for self defense.

I guess it depends on if you think doing something stupid is wrong.

 

[shortylickens]

I guess it depends on if you think doing something stupid is wrong.

Stupidity has existed since well before guns. So has murder. And accidents.

Guns are not the fucking problem. People are the problem. And since we cant fix people we tend to focus on the things we think we can control. Even though we really cant.

 

[fskimospy]

Stupidity has existed since well before guns. So has murder. And accidents.

Guns are not the fucking problem. People are the problem. And since we cant fix people we tend to focus on the things we think we can control. Even though we really cant.

While I don’t know what THE problem is, guns are definitely A problem. People are people. When you give them widespread access to tools designed to kill people as efficiently as possible they will use them.

The research on this is clear - more guns means more suicide and homicide. This isn’t some mysterious, unknowable thing, the evidence is right there in front of us.