Finland to end basic income trial after two years

[vi edit]

I'd still like to know how liberating our country would be if you could take a job without the fear of health insurance looming over you. From an Uber Driver, to a independent carpenter, to a landscaper, to a line cook to PC repair guy. All of those jobs that you have to go out and try and get on the open market at horrible rates for coverage on yourself or your family. No longer an issue.

I would have to think that would drastically improve job mobility and overall anxiety levels of the average person.

 

[fskimospy]

None of you think UBI would be the death of first world society? Why would anyone work? Why not just sit on the sofa eating free food and smoking free weed? I see this as rapidly turning into a fat, slovenly society of stupid eaters.

You could do that now, quit your job, get food stamps, live in homeless shelters or public housing, etc. Why hasn’t this led to the death of our society yet?

UBI doesn’t give people enough money to live a fancy life, it gives you enough to barely scrape by. Being poor sucks, which is why people work.

 

[ivwshane]

You're not very good at snark.
I get it, you don't have a good argument because there isn't a good argument, but lame cheap shots just come across as lame.
Lets take a simple look at this. How many people (not family) are you personally willing to support? How much of your weekly paycheck are you willing to give to able bodied people so they won't have to work?
You're going to say we take it from rich people, and surprise, I have no problem with that. But there aren't enough rich people to support all of us. On top of that, at some point along the way, someone has to do some work. Someone has to grow crops, someone has to pick up the garbage, and someone has to fix the streets. Is that someone going to be you?

And you aren't very good at life. Once again, a conservative doesn't understand people.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

I'd still like to know how liberating our country would be if you could take a job without the fear of health insurance looming over you. From an Uber Driver, to a independent carpenter, to a landscaper, to a line cook to PC repair guy. All of those jobs that you have to go out and try and get on the open market at horrible rates for coverage on yourself or your family. No longer an issue.

I would have to think that would drastically improve job mobility and overall anxiety levels of the average person.

Agreed and please forgive my off topic post:

When Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge went into labor with the third royal baby on Monday morning, she did it in style. At the Lindo Wing, she enjoyed access to state-of-the-art equipment, WiFi, modern decor, daily newspapers, meals prepared by on-site chefs and afternoon tea, among other amenities. Kate Middleton gave birth to a boy at 11:01 a.m. local time, or about 6 a.m. EDT.
...
And even with all the fanfare, his delivery will likely still end up costing less than the average birth in the U.S.

summary, a Royal Birth costs about 15-20k an average US birth costs 32-50k

http://time.com/money/5227514/royal-baby-kate-middleton-cost/

 

[Zorba]

None of you think UBI would be the death of first world society? Why would anyone work? Why not just sit on the sofa eating free food and smoking free weed? I see this as rapidly turning into a fat, slovenly society of stupid eaters.

Most people like to work and do something meaningful. UBI would only be enough to pay for basic living expenses. If you want to buy drugs with it, it is probably in lieu of food, etc. Further, as technology continues to take jobs from people, it may be the only real way to prop up society.

It would also eliminate a ton of wasteful bureaucracy. It would also potentially allow people to pursue less lucrative careers like teaching and the arts, which are beneficial to societies.

The big problem I see with it, is companies/government will probably consider it part of your wages and cut your wages to make up for it.

 

[soulcougher73]

I'd still like to know how liberating our country would be if you could take a job without the fear of health insurance looming over you. From an Uber Driver, to a independent carpenter, to a landscaper, to a line cook to PC repair guy. All of those jobs that you have to go out and try and get on the open market at horrible rates for coverage on yourself or your family. No longer an issue.

I would have to think that would drastically improve job mobility and overall anxiety levels of the average person.

Health Insurance definitely needs to be decoupled from employment one way or another.

 

[Paratus]

You could do that now, quit your job, get food stamps, live in homeless shelters or public housing, etc. Why hasn’t this led to the death of our society yet?

UBI doesn’t give people enough money to live a fancy life, it gives you enough to barely scrape by. Being poor sucks, which is why people work.

But implicit bias rears it’s ugly head again. What does the average welfare recipient look like to a lot of Americans who don’t put much thought or research into it?

A lazy good for nothing sitting on their couch with an iPhone X, a large screen TV, Lexus in the driveway with steaks and lobster in the fridge bought with food stamps.

 

[Rebel_L]

If you're talking about total automation of pretty much everything, then sure, things will have to change. That change certainly isn't going to come about in my lifetime.

The only reason automation is not already that massive is that we have been busy exploiting cheap third world labor forces because its been cheaper than putting the money into automation. The move to far more massive automation would not take long if it ever became cheaper than exploiting other people or decided we should stop exploiting the poor so much.

 

[Phynaz]

Health Insurance definitely needs to be decoupled from employment one way or another.

Liberal Labor Unions are never going to let that happen.

 

[brycejones]

But implicit bias rears it’s ugly head again. What does the average welfare recipient look like to a lot of Americans who don’t put much thought or research into it?

A lazy good for nothing person of color sitting on their couch with an iPhone X, a large screen TV, Lexus in the driveway with steaks and lobster in the fridge bought with food stamps.

FTFY

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Liberal Labor Unions are never going to let that happen.

Wrong!
Labor Unions were the first to offer it, employers took over to prevent someone from being a employee of the Union.
None of the stewards I’ve ever met were against public healthcare.

 

[Atreus21]

I assume the article is talking about the European right, not the American right. No way the American right supports UBI. It is gaining traction among liberals, but the right will fight it tooth and nail to the end.

The American right loves the military and police, but they hate socialism. How can this be? Because the right does not even understand what socialism is, and do not care to understand it. The dirty word socialism only applies to things they hate.

We tend to understand its death toll where it has been substantially implemented.

 

[nickqt]

We tend to understand its death toll where it has been substantially implemented.

Like western European countries that are death-marching their citizens right now!!

Get a grip, clown.

 

[Zaap]

But implicit bias rears it’s ugly head again. What does the average welfare recipient look like to a lot of Americans who don’t put much thought or research into it?

A lazy good for nothing sitting on their couch with an iPhone X, a large screen TV, Lexus in the driveway with steaks and lobster in the fridge bought with food stamps.

When people have been in line at the grocery store behind the person buying food with food stamps (probably not lobster granted) seen that they have a decent phone, seen them load up the Lexus in the parking lot....

What's left? The big screen?

Personally I don't really care what some 'average' looks like, but personally seen all of the above many times.

I don't begrudge people the food or the phones or most other stuff that's relatively cheap... but when the car IS a Lexus or something a bit too nice for food stamps one does have to wonder.

Could you possibly make do with a Ford or something and paid for your food and other needs with the difference?

 

[Zaap]

Like western European countries that are death-marching their citizens right now!!

Get a grip, clown.

Those are capitalist countries where capitalism pays for the socialism. *ACTUAL* socialist countries that shun capitalism (ie the smelly 'college safe-space' nitwit socialist types actually get their way, chase out all the smart people and run the place)... Yeah. Those are shitholes.

When on the rise amid all the grandiose speeches and self-back patting, western liberals are there to grovel for the dictators in charge and give high praise.

When it goes tits up, then the same leftists litterally MAKE UP that it was something else.

(Just witnessed it here in a recent Venezuela thread that was positively hilarious!)

 

[nickqt]

Those are capitalist countries where capitalism pays for the socialism. *ACTUAL* socialist countries that shun capitalism (ie the smelly 'college safe-space' nitwit socialist types actually get their way, chase out all the smart people and run the place)... Yeah. Those are shitholes.

When on the rise amid all the grandiose speeches and self-back patting, western liberals are there to grovel for the dictators in charge and give high praise.

When it goes tits up, then the same leftists litterally MAKE UP that it was something else.

(Just witnessed it here in a recent Venezuela thread that was positively hilarious!)

Socialism in western Europe means a social democracy, where the big bad gub'mint regulates and taxes capitalists... to make sure that the capitalists aren't regulating and taxing the government.

The strawman socialism you've been trained to cower into conservative safe spaces to avoid aren't socialist in any sense of the word, as they're typically entirely corrupt totalitarian regimes that are stealing all the wealth from almost all of the citizens.

But do go on repeating the talking points your handlers have trained you well to repeat.

 

[Zaap]

^ see what I mean about making it up? Perfect example!

Funniest thing is, if not fawning for socialism, then by admission leftists tend to idolize "entirely corrupt totalitarian regimes that are stealing all the wealth from almost all of the citizens." Which is it? 😛

You gonna burn that Che T-shirt and your copy of The Motorcyle Diaries anytime soon, dipshit?

 

[Paratus]

When people have been in line at the grocery store behind the person buying food with food stamps (probably not lobster granted) seen that they have a decent phone, seen them load up the Lexus in the parking lot....

What's left? The big screen?

Personally I don't really care what some 'average' looks like, but personally seen all of the above many times.

I don't begrudge people the food or the phones or most other stuff that's relatively cheap... but when the car IS a Lexus or something a bit too nice for food stamps one does have to wonder.

Could you possibly make do with a Ford or something and paid for your food and other needs with the difference?

Ok but again this post reaks of implicit bias.

You are making judgements without all pertinent information and filling them with conscious or unconscious biases.

Your underlying assumption is here’s a poor person on welfare (which you somehow know from watching them pay with an EBT card?), living beyond their means by having a nice car, (which you somehow know because you watch them leave the store and get into a nice car). Since you’ve somehow seen this many times are you:

• As not an ‘average’ (what wonderfully condescending way to put that - really helps us see your biases) are you slumming it in the poor section of town and that’s where you’ve seen this ‘many times’?
• Seeing many poor people in your presumably ‘not average’ part of town? Have you considered that professionals who lose their jobs still have the nice phones and cars they had when working? That the cheapest car is generally the one you have?
• Pulling these comments out of your ass to justify your bias against ‘averages’?

 

[Atreus21]

Like western European countries that are death-marching their citizens right now!!

Get a grip, clown.

And which of those don't use a fundamentally market-oriented economy?

They are socialist in their approach to the welfare state, not in the sense of being anti-capitalist.

Advocates for socialism must be very quick on their feet, and loose with any pretense to consistency. When a glorious socialist revolution happens, and immediately works, it's a shining example of socialism working. When it goes to hell within a few generations, it was never socialism in the first place.

To the extent socialism is seriously attempted it leads to concentration of power so severe that it inevitably leads to poverty, corruption, and mass suffering. Get a grip, indeed.

 

[Phynaz]

Wrong!
Labor Unions were the first to offer it, employers took over to prevent someone from being a employee of the Union.
None of the stewards I’ve ever met were against public healthcare.

Yeah, that's why the UAW goes apeshit over health insurance during contract talks. Because they don't want it to be employer based.

<--- Works in a union shop.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Yeah, that's why the UAW goes apeshit over health insurance during contract talks. Because they don't want it to be employer based.

<--- Works in a union shop.

Wrong again
I know this topic well from being on a committee that was working a new contract with the CWA. Unions go after vacation and healthcare hard because it’s easy to set a finite expectation, like weekly costs shall not exceed $xx.00 or healthcare co-pay costs shall not exceed 60% of salary progression steps or cost of living increase shall happen every x months and it shall equal core inflation plus healthcare cost increases

 

[nickqt]

^ see what I mean about making it up? Perfect example!

Funniest thing is, if not fawning for socialism, then by admission leftists tend to idolize "entirely corrupt totalitarian regimes that are stealing all the wealth from almost all of the citizens." Which is it? 😛

You gonna burn that Che T-shirt and your copy of The Motorcyle Diaries anytime soon, dipshit?

Dipshit?

Western European Social Democracy is socialism. You've just been trained that any type of socialism is USSR/Mao China/Venezuela socialism, which, as I just fucking said, is a totalitarian regime stealing the wealth of most of its citizens to give to the allotted few who run the government. Which isn't socialism.

Just saying that a totalitarian regime that steals the wealth of the citizens to give to a few who run the government is socialist, because Masters Limbaugh, Hannity and Gingrich have shat that idea directly into your damaged brain for the past 40 years doesn't make it so.

Dipshit.

And which of those don't use a fundamentally market-oriented economy?

They are socialist in their approach to the welfare state, not in the sense of being anti-capitalist.

Advocates for socialism must be very quick on their feet, and loose with any pretense to consistency. When a glorious socialist revolution happens, and immediately works, it's a shining example of socialism working. When it goes to hell within a few generations, it was never socialism in the first place.

To the extent socialism is seriously attempted it leads to concentration of power so severe that it inevitably leads to poverty, corruption, and mass suffering. Get a grip, indeed.

Socialism isn't a monolithic idea that is unable to be tweaked to fit the structure of a culture and a country. Example? Fucking western Europe, genius.

The only reason that you're unable to understand that simple concept, is because you're a brain-damaged conservative who has been shouted at by modern US conservative carnival barkers that have trained you well to repeat stupid fucking talking points. Clearly, independent, critical thinking isn't something that the useful idiots, namely you, are able to do.

Otherwise. Uh, western Europe indeed.

But many thanks for the opportunity to respond.

 

[Mai72]

You mean that I can't play Madden all day while the gov pays me in cold cash?

WELL THAT'S NOT FAIR!!!

🙁

 

[Maxima1]

Socialism isn't a monolithic idea that is unable to be tweaked to fit the structure of a culture and a country. Example? Fucking western Europe, genius.

In comparative econ, it's still considered a flavor of capitalism.

 

[nickqt]

In comparative econ, it's still considered a flavor of capitalism.

For those of you who think in bumper stickers, just go ahead and tl;dr the shit out of this post. I have something to say. Anyway...

Yeah, you're right.

Democratic Socialism. The people, using the government (of the people, by the people, for the people) to ensure that their country and their freedoms aren't trampled upon by individuals in charge of the government, or individuals with wealth and power using corporate power.

If, and only if, they are informed citizens voting for representatives who have the peoples' interests as their interests.

Look, capitalism, as a monetary system, isn't going anywhere. It has essentially been around forever. And it'll exist, even in a...SOCIALIST country. Go to shithole Venezuela, and tell me there isn't all sorts of real life free market buying and selling going on. Because guess what, it is. Obviously.

Capitalism as a concrete, real economic system is one person having something to sell to someone else. Even if there was an actual UBI, where "poors" are paid to sit on their ass at home, there will still be market-driven entrepreneur "poors" working on something that they can either sell to individuals or the masses, to make themselves have more money/credits/company scip than their neighbors. And there will always be high-profile, high-paying jobs that reward those who are able to perform, that make taking a UBI a fool's choice.

Who wouldn't choose to do something they like, and enjoy, all while living much better than a "poor" collecting a UBI and watching god awful daytime television.

This divide in how people exist has existed and will continue to exist. Forever.

Socialism is a fucking scare word for conservatives like "assault rifles" is a scare word for libruuls. A phrase that has thousands of connotations and means different things, but is used to SHUT THE CONVERSATION DOWN RIGHT NOW YOU'RE EVIL AND HATE AMERICA.

Socialism, like it's done with our European cousins' cultures, is Democratic Socialism. Where corporations, the rich, and other organizations with massive amounts of wealth are HIGHLY REGULATED to make sure that those rich and powerful corporations/individuals/organizations aren't just using their wealth and power to control the government to write laws empowering themselves over the rest of the citizens of the country.

At least in theory. There are plenty of rich and powerful Europeans who wield their wealth and power for themselves, their families, and their friends. Even in -gasp- Democratic Socialist Europe.

Socialism isn't just a black or white concept. It's an idea. With many flavors.

There are essentially zero libruuuuls with any power or voice in this country arguing for USSR/Mao China/Venezuela Socialism. And when you find them, you'll find people shut out of power and virtually ignored by anyone with any power. Because unlike the right-wing, the left-wing in the US has no power and almost no representation. What, we got Sanders and Warren? Fuck, it's no problem to list dozens of prominent right-wingers in elected office still arguing for the dismantling of the modern government in favor of 1820s style anachronistic thinking that would destroy the very "capitalist" economy they erroneously think they are in favor of.

And, unlike modern US conservatism that has zero fucking models of successful countries operating the way their policy creates reality, US libruuuuls have dozens of western countries, in Europe and Asia, that they use as models for much fairer (scare word for conservatives!) economic systems for this large, diverse country.

Our modern country is obviously rapidly changing in economic and social ways that are exposing how inadequate our current economic and political system is at addressing the problems of the people.

I mean, even if you somehow, for some reason, believe that Strongman Trump is the right man for these times, then you should agree with the last sentence, regardless of your political thoughts on libruuul treason and whatnot. Right? No? Re-read it before you disagree. Why else elect a notorious narcissistic rich man to "make America great again".

My personal political compass location depends on what time frame you're using. Right now, my pure political preference is for anarcho-syndicalism (hence my inherent distrust in any hierarchy, and my vigilance of authoritarianism and fascism, ala my avatar). But, realistically, the closest option I have is the US Democratic party, which is way to the right of what is actually NEEDED for the objective observable reality on the ground that we're living in.

But, long term, assuming our species doesn't poison the planet and kill ourselves out of petty differences, I'm a small-l libertarian (which is not even close to a capital-L Libertarian of the US variety who are political toddlers). Small-l libertarians, on a long-term scale, think that everyone being their very own government is probably the best version of society/culture possible. That said, small-l libertarianism requires the human species to come together to advance science enough so that we can actually live as small-l libertarians. Which requires that we're not all stuck on the same fucking rock hurdling through space subject to the whims of the richest, and typically, most heinous individuals, who don't mind everyone else living in squalor, outside the gates of their estates.

Small-l libertarianism is actually, to some extent, way to the left of anarcho-syndicalism (which is people working together because they have to, in order to have a functioning species-wide economy), which is way to the left of the US Democratic party, which for all intents and purposes, relatively, is center-left at best, and half the time, center-right (because the US Democratic party is the only big tent party).

Which is why it's so hilarious to listen to right-wing authoritarians trying to paint the center-left to center-right Democratic party as communists. Absolutely hilarious, for anyone who understands the labels being thrown around.

So, yes. Agreed.

Democratic Socialism is a "flavor" of capitalism.

But free-market capitalism is only functional when there is physical space and physical resources that can be acquired free and clear (arguably free and clear. Fucking face it, the US government committed genocide in order to acquire the US land and resources through l̶e̶b̶e̶n̶s̶r̶a̶u̶m̶ ManifestDestiny™ from the natives). If we wish to keep this planet habitable, and we don't want to outright murder a large majority of the population to take their land and their resources, then "free market" capitalism is essentially over, and we need a much better system to adapt to objective, observable reality. Hello? Democratic Socialism. Hello?

And once we've developed the science and technology that individuals can live off-planet, then we can all be happy small-l libertarians, acquiring resources that don't directly belong to other individuals or societies, to use in an economy with other individuals who are free of extra-corporeal government control. To finally live as individuals given equal opportunity to live freely, by pulling up those ol' bootstraps and working because it's necessary to work to support yourself. Sound familiar?

But, all of that requires that you have the critical thinking and historical perspective to reason beyond Masters Limbaugh, Hannity and Gingrichs' talking points designed to scare and intimidate you (third person) into SCREAMING AND YELLING to shut down any conversation about objective, observable reality, along with history.

Democratic Socialism is the necessary next step in civilization. Full stop.

Yet, state governments and the Federal government, are attempting to double-down on 100+ year old political and economic policies that have been CONTINUALLY FAILING for the past 50 years, because, uh, Make America Great Again. Again being the key word. There is no going back to what the world existed like 100+ years ago.

Adapt or fucking die. And our civilization is in control of people who are ok with dying, as long as they don't have to adapt. What a terrible god damn position to be in. But here we are.