Finland to end basic income trial after two years

thilanliyan

Lifer
Jun 21, 2005
12,015
2,235
126
I watched a short docu on it and it seemed interesting. The people there were using it mainly as a stopgap until they were able to do what they really wanted to. From what I remember it was mostly positive but it also didn't help some.
 

mect

Platinum Member
Jan 5, 2004
2,424
1,636
136
And so the problems with these studies continue. The full implications of a UBI won't be recognized until the participants really begin to view it as permanent.
 

NTMBK

Lifer
Nov 14, 2011
10,402
5,639
136
UBI is a terrible waste of money. Why piss away money subsidizing the middle class and the rich? Spreading the same pool of money around a larger number of people means that it is going to be spread more thinly, and the people who really need it are going to end up with less as a result.
 

FelixDeCat

Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
30,633
2,590
126
The problem was weed. Why get a job when you simply suck on the government teet and get stoned all day?

Ban the weed worldwide and you will solve all our problems.
 

Flapdrol1337

Golden Member
May 21, 2014
1,677
93
91
UBI is a terrible waste of money. Why piss away money subsidizing the middle class and the rich? Spreading the same pool of money around a larger number of people means that it is going to be spread more thinly, and the people who really need it are going to end up with less as a result.
It saves on overhead. Just paying out everybody and focusing the bureaucracy on tax collection is much more efficient.

If you're afraid the rich would be better off with that system simply up their taxes a fraction of a percentage point.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,614
30,890
146
The problem was weed. Why get a job when you simply suck on the government teet and get stoned all day?

Ban the weed worldwide and you will solve all our problems.

You'd probably have less chronic pain, and less suffering from your nightly fever dreams, if you just moved away from your government-subsidized, highly addictive opioids and over to the Holy Herb.
 

mect

Platinum Member
Jan 5, 2004
2,424
1,636
136
UBI is a terrible waste of money. Why piss away money subsidizing the middle class and the rich? Spreading the same pool of money around a larger number of people means that it is going to be spread more thinly, and the people who really need it are going to end up with less as a result.
How is it a waste of money? You simply set the tax rate appropriately so that those that don't need it are revenue neutral or for the wealthier revenue generating for the program. Yes, in some ways it is inefficient to collect money from people and then distribute it back out. On the other hand, you eliminate a significant amount of overhead by removing the means testing for the program. In addition, you hopefully begin to remove the stigma associated with social welfare.

There's no doubt it will be more challenging to get enough buy in so that you can set tax rates high enough to support such a program, which is the main reason no one has ever done it on a large scale.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
UBI is the most efficient form of wealth redistribution. I am curious to know why they feel it is not worth extending to this test group.
 

Thebobo

Lifer
Jun 19, 2006
18,574
7,672
136
The problem was weed. Why get a job when you simply suck on the government teet and get stoned all day?

Ban the weed worldwide and you will solve all our problems.

Do you do stand up? Because you're not funny.
 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,313
534
126
UBI won't work because the RICH write the laws through their puppet bought and paid for legislatures, and the last thing they will let them pass is a loophole free tax that actually forces them to TRICKLE DOWN some of that wealth while they themselves pay lip service to Basic Income and at the same time trying to figure out how to pass the costs to the ever shrinking middle class like everything else that is "for the good of society".
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
UBI won't work because the RICH write the laws through their puppet bought and paid for legislatures, and the last thing they will let them pass is a loophole free tax that actually forces them to TRICKLE DOWN some of that wealth while they themselves pay lip service to Basic Income and at the same time trying to figure out how to pass the costs to the ever shrinking middle class like everything else that is "for the good of society".

If this were true. Why do we run wealth redistribution systems in the Western democracies worth trillions each year? I think the UBI is a good idea that both right and left agree for the most part. I am curious why this one is being dropped.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
36,952
32,177
136
If this were true. Why do we run wealth redistribution systems in the Western democracies worth trillions each year? I think the UBI is a good idea that both right and left agree for the most part. I am curious why this one is being dropped.
What "right" are you talking about? Since when does the right support socialism?
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
What "right" are you talking about? Since when does the right support socialism?

Did you not read the article? That said I have heard rumblings of UBI gaining traction in this country for much the same reasons as Finland outlined in this article.

And to answer your question. Uh the right loves the military and police. Two huge govt owned and run entities.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
36,952
32,177
136
Did you not read the article? That said I have heard rumblings of UBI gaining traction in this country for much the same reasons as Finland outlined in this article.

And to answer your question. Uh the right loves the military and police. Two huge govt owned and run entities.
I assume the article is talking about the European right, not the American right. No way the American right supports UBI. It is gaining traction among liberals, but the right will fight it tooth and nail to the end.

The American right loves the military and police, but they hate socialism. How can this be? Because the right does not even understand what socialism is, and do not care to understand it. The dirty word socialism only applies to things they hate.
 
Feb 4, 2009
35,848
17,382
136
I stand by what I said when this idea was first presented. Sounds great to give people opportunity to do what they want/need until you hear that you’re giving a guy 28k per year for hookers & blow.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
36,952
32,177
136
I stand by what I said when this idea was first presented. Sounds great to give people opportunity to do what they want/need until you hear that you’re giving a guy 28k per year for hookers & blow.
I would expect that taxes would increase as your income increases to basically phase out the UBI at relatively low levels. Thus, the only people actually using that 28k for hookers and blow would probably be choosing to remain homeless in order to do so. If that is the lifestyle someone chooses, more power to them.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,484
8,344
126
I was trying to see how they set it up, but couldn't really tell. Do they just give out a check each month and say "Here you go, have fun!".

I could see a *ton* of opportunities for it, but it would take a total reprogramming of how we approach things and get over any labeling.

Think of a compilation of skills, services, and production that could be setup as a training experience. These schools and services are paid out of a federal credit bank that each person on the income program had an account through. The federal program reimbursed the schools/businesses/ect for services or products provided and it was debited from the individuals "credit" on their account.

1) States could setup agriculture schools and acreages to grow crops. Crops would be used to create weekly shares that could be "purchased". The experience of farming would be part of the education for the students working there. In turn people would have access to locally grown, fresh produce 8-16 weeks a year. Same could be done for things like eggs and meat.

2) Same concept, except for skilled trades. Electricians, plumbers, masons, carpenters, ect would be enrolled in trade schools and as part of their experience they could do appropriate level work for experience. The schools would be reimbursed via the credit system.

3) Utility companies would be part of the service and you could pay your water or electric bill through it.

4) Basic health care like prompt care, basic preventative dental hygiene, and inexpensive prescription meds could be provided through state education schools that had medical schools for those practices. You'd just have them bill your income account for the services.

5) You could also set it up so that things like monthly rent or mortgages could be paid through it.

I wouldn't treat it so much as "basic" income, but rather a somewhat regulated account that could be used for core services and take some burden off of households. It has room to provide an extended training program to skilled and professional trades and possibly stimulate jobs through that. It would be sort of a hybrid economy where some basic things could be provided through local government approved services while still allowing private industry for anything above and beyond.

That's a very basic outline of how I would handle it. It's certainly not perfect and has room for abuse. But so does pretty much anything. I think we need to be looking out for ways to provide people meaningful training for occupations while also offering some way to make the "basics" more affordable without influxing so much "easy" money that you run into inflation of basic goods and services.
 
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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
36,952
32,177
136
I was trying to see how they set it up, but couldn't really tell. Do they just give out a check each month and say "Here you go, have fun!".

I could see a *ton* of opportunities for it, but it would take a total reprogramming of how we approach things and get over any labeling.

Think of a compilation of skills, services, and production that could be setup as a training experience. These schools and services are paid out of a federal credit bank that each person on the income program had an account through. The federal program reimbursed the schools/businesses/ect for services or products provided and it was debited from the individuals "credit" on their account.

1) States could setup agriculture schools and acreages to grow crops. Crops would be used to create weekly shares that could be "purchased". The experience of farming would be part of the education for the students working there. In turn people would have access to locally grown, fresh produce 8-16 weeks a year. Same could be done for things like eggs and meat.

2) Same concept, except for skilled trades. Electricians, plumbers, masons, carpenters, ect would be enrolled in trade schools and as part of their experience they could do appropriate level work for experience. The schools would be reimbursed via the credit system.

3) Utility companies would be part of the service and you could pay your water or electric bill through it.

4) Basic health care like prompt care, basic preventative dental hygiene, and inexpensive prescription meds could be provided through state education schools that had medical schools for those practices. You'd just have them bill your income account for the services.

5) You could also set it up so that things like monthly rent or mortgages could be paid through it.

I wouldn't treat it so much as "basic" income, but rather a somewhat regulated account that could be used for core services and take some burden off of households. It has room to provide an extended training program to skilled and professional trades and possibly stimulate jobs through that. It would be sort of a hybrid economy where some basic things could be provided through local government approved services while still allowing private industry for anything above and beyond.

That's a very basic outline of how I would handle it. It's certainly not perfect and has room for abuse. But so does pretty much anything. I think we need to be looking out for ways to provide people meaningful training for occupations while also offering some way to make the "basics" more affordable without influxing so much "easy" money that you run into inflation of basic goods and services.
The problem as I see it is that you are creating a whole new bureaucracy to replace the old bureaucracy that UBI is trying to eliminate.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,484
8,344
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It's really not, many of these pieces already exist and and are cobbled together through a myriad of various programs existing forms of reimbursement. This is just universal credit and a means to broker it to select programs/services.