Finally, a company with cajones

[SampSon]

Are you phone records public information?...No, it's private.

You are losing a small part of your privacy which isn't exactly freedom, but it is an infringment upon privacy. As your privacy declines your freedom is soon to follow.

Your personal information is bought and sold every single day. Your credit information is bought and sold every single day.

You're worried about "losing your freedoms" because a govt security agency wants phone records? Are you really that paranoid? The govt knows everything about you anyway. They already collected all the data from your post. Yet you're worried about phone records. Do you have any idea of the volume of phone calls made in this country on a daily basis? If you did then you wouldn't even begin to care about the NSA wanting phone records. The amount of man power it would take to even begin to infringe on your freedoms is completely unattainable.

Please don't make some off the wall reference to "1984".

 

[1prophet]

Originally posted by: sling

Originally posted by: funboy42

Originally posted by: blurredvision
I'm definitely in the minority, but I say Qwest needs to give up the records. Personally, I never understand why everyone yells about privacy with stuff like this. Like the government is taking time to look over everything to see how many times I've called friends and family. If my phone records help catch a a terrorist, then we ALL benefit.

I know this will catch a LOT of heat here (probably), but I don't care. And I'm not going to bother arguing for my stance. Say what you will.

And with this kind of attitude is the reason were loosing more and more of our freedoms.

We're loosing freedoms? I don't feel like I've lost any freedoms at all. Sure, the NSA having my phone records is a little unsettling at first, but when you think about it it really isn't a huge deal for them to know how many times my wife calls me at work and such.

Sure....someone lost the freedom to sell decorative knives at the airport. But that's a little obvious. I just want to know which freedoms we've lost....that's all.

You probably aren't a threat to anyone important enough. Now imagine if you were to speak your mind about something or protest against something you strongly believe is wrong and someone in a position of power feels you are a threat. Do you now understand what this is all about?

 

[Kilgor]

The funny part is that people think the Government won't get the records anyway. They don't look at the phone records, they're put into a big computer like any other kind of data. Then they just Google certain things.

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

Originally posted by: TySnyder

Originally posted by: sling

Originally posted by: funboy42

Originally posted by: blurredvision
I'm definitely in the minority, but I say Qwest needs to give up the records. Personally, I never understand why everyone yells about privacy with stuff like this. Like the government is taking time to look over everything to see how many times I've called friends and family. If my phone records help catch a a terrorist, then we ALL benefit.

I know this will catch a LOT of heat here (probably), but I don't care. And I'm not going to bother arguing for my stance. Say what you will.

And with this kind of attitude is the reason were loosing more and more of our freedoms.

We're loosing freedoms? I don't feel like I've lost any freedoms at all. Sure, the NSA having my phone records is a little unsettling at first, but when you think about it it really isn't a huge deal for them to know how many times my wife calls me at work and such.

Sure....someone lost the freedom to sell decorative knives at the airport. But that's a little obvious. I just want to know which freedoms we've lost....that's all.

Are you phone records public information?...No, it's private.

You are losing a small part of your privacy which isn't exactly freedom, but it is an infringment upon privacy. As your privacy declines your freedom is soon to follow.

They take a little at a time, that way the vast majority of sheeple don't ever know it's happening. Think about the Minority Report. That had scanners everywhere to keep track of everyone.
Some will say well if you're not doing anything wrong then why worry?? Well after the gov starts doing, maybe employeers will start using it at work. What, you left 30 minutes early friday afternoon. You're fired.

 

[Brainonska511]

Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski

Originally posted by: TySnyder

Originally posted by: sling

Originally posted by: funboy42

Originally posted by: blurredvision
I'm definitely in the minority, but I say Qwest needs to give up the records. Personally, I never understand why everyone yells about privacy with stuff like this. Like the government is taking time to look over everything to see how many times I've called friends and family. If my phone records help catch a a terrorist, then we ALL benefit.

I know this will catch a LOT of heat here (probably), but I don't care. And I'm not going to bother arguing for my stance. Say what you will.

And with this kind of attitude is the reason were loosing more and more of our freedoms.

We're loosing freedoms? I don't feel like I've lost any freedoms at all. Sure, the NSA having my phone records is a little unsettling at first, but when you think about it it really isn't a huge deal for them to know how many times my wife calls me at work and such.

Sure....someone lost the freedom to sell decorative knives at the airport. But that's a little obvious. I just want to know which freedoms we've lost....that's all.

Are you phone records public information?...No, it's private.

You are losing a small part of your privacy which isn't exactly freedom, but it is an infringment upon privacy. As your privacy declines your freedom is soon to follow.

They take a little at a time, that way the vast majority of sheeple don't ever know it's happening. Think about the Minority Report. That had scanners everywhere to keep track of everyone.
Some will say well if you're not doing anything wrong then why worry?? Well after the gov starts doing, maybe employeers will start using it at work. What, you left 30 minutes early friday afternoon. You're fired.

I may have said it in my last post, but who decides what's right and wrong. Maybe you see something normal (such as talking about how bad the president is), but then the government decides that such an action is illegal. Suddenly, the "I'm not doing anything wrong, what should I worry about" attitude comes back to bite you in the ass.

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: SampSon
I don't see why people are so up in arms about activities that have been happening since the NSA was founded in the late 60s. People complain about their privacy being violated, but go out and use shoppers bonus cards, automatic toll paying devices on their cars, use callphones/cars with GPS devices, complete all their transactions with plastic instead of cash, give their personal information out for sweepstakes drawings, join social networks like myspace, and allow their personal information to be published in phone books. The reality is that the public truly isn't concerned about the privacy of their information in the least, their actions speak MUCH louder than words. Most of the information people claim to be so worried about is largely public record or readily available for a small price. The public is being such a drama queen about this.

Voluntarily giving out your personal information/giving up your privacy, and having it taken from you, are two ENTIRELY different things.

If you don't see the distinction, I'll just help myself to the contents of your wallet.

 

[Kaervak]

For anyone wondering why Quest refusing to comply is such a big deal should read this article. http://www.wired.com/news/wireservice/0,70879-0.html?tw=wn_index_14

Associated Press 09:30 AM May, 11, 2006

WASHINGTON -- The government has abruptly ended an inquiry into the warrantless eavesdropping program because the National Security Agency refused to grant Justice Department lawyers security clearance.

The Justice Department's Office of Professional Responsibility, or OPR, sent a fax Wednesday to Democratic Rep. Maurice Hinchey of New York saying it was closing its inquiry because without clearance it could not examine department lawyers' role in the program.

"We have been unable to make any meaningful progress in our investigation because OPR has been denied security clearances for access to information about the NSA program," OPR counsel H. Marshall Jarrett wrote to Hinchey. Hinchey's office shared the letter with The Associated Press.

Jarrett wrote that beginning in January his office has made a series of requests for the necessary clearances. Those requests were denied Tuesday.

"Without these clearances, we cannot investigate this matter and therefore have closed our investigation," Jarrett wrote.

Justice Department spokesman Brian Roehrkasse said the terrorist surveillance program "has been subject to extensive oversight both in the executive branch and in Congress from the time of its inception."

Roehrkasse noted the OPR's mission is not to investigate possible wrongdoing in other agencies, but to determine if Justice Department lawyers violated any ethical rules.

He declined to comment when asked if the end of the inquiry meant the agency believed its lawyers had handled the wiretapping matter ethically.

Hinchey is one of many House Democrats who have been highly critical of the domestic eavesdropping program first revealed in December. He said lawmakers would push to find out who at the NSA denied the Justice Department lawyers security clearance.

"This administration thinks they can just violate any law they want, and they've created a culture of fear to try to get away with that. It's up to us to stand up to them," Hinchey said.

In February, the OPR announced it would examine the conduct of its own agency's lawyers in the program, though they were not authorized to investigate NSA activities.

Bush's decision to authorize the largest U.S. spy agency to monitor people inside the United States, without warrants, generated a host of questions about the program's legal justification.

The administration has vehemently defended the eavesdropping, saying the NSA's activities were narrowly targeted to intercept international calls and e-mails of Americans and others inside the U.S. with suspected ties to the al-Qaida terror network.

Separately, the Justice Department sought last month to dismiss a federal lawsuit accusing the telephone company AT&T of colluding with the Bush administration's warrantless wiretapping program.

The lawsuit, brought by an internet privacy group, does not name the government as a defendant, but the Department of Justice has sought to quash the lawsuit, saying it threatens to expose government and military secrets.

Screw the fact that phone calls are being monitored, it's that they're being monitored without proper legal guidelines being followed.

 

[KMFJD]

The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either.
- Benjamin Franklin

 

[Brainonska511]

Originally posted by: KMFJD
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either.
- Benjamin Franklin

Using wikiquote, it is actually: "Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power."

Also, found in this version of Poor Richard's Almanac: Text

 

[SampSon]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: SampSon
I don't see why people are so up in arms about activities that have been happening since the NSA was founded in the late 60s. People complain about their privacy being violated, but go out and use shoppers bonus cards, automatic toll paying devices on their cars, use callphones/cars with GPS devices, complete all their transactions with plastic instead of cash, give their personal information out for sweepstakes drawings, join social networks like myspace, and allow their personal information to be published in phone books. The reality is that the public truly isn't concerned about the privacy of their information in the least, their actions speak MUCH louder than words. Most of the information people claim to be so worried about is largely public record or readily available for a small price. The public is being such a drama queen about this.

Voluntarily giving out your personal information/giving up your privacy, and having it taken from you, are two ENTIRELY different things.

If you don't see the distinction, I'll just help myself to the contents of your wallet.

Mabey you never read the fine print when you sign a contract with a telecommunications company, or many other companies for that matter. All of that data you give them is no longer "private". They have the right to sell, or release as much or as little as they please. By doing business with these companies you already "gave up" your "privacy".
Nothing is being taken from you, because you already gave it up from the getgo.

If you really cared about your privacy, your life would be run completely different. Since no one cares enough to change their lifestyle, they really don't care. Are you really that concerned about phone records being collected by the NSA? Do you honestly think that they care about little you, or that they are up to some profound evil and gunning to make this country a socialist prison state?

Screw the fact that phone calls are being monitored, it's that they're being monitored without proper legal guidelines being followed.

So you don't care that it's being done, you don't care about the "invasion of privacy", you just care about the proper paperwork being filed?

 

[NTB]

Originally posted by: BatmanNate

Originally posted by: drinkmorejava
wth is cajones

bollocks

'nads

Nate

 

[Brainonska511]

Originally posted by: SampSon

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: SampSon
I don't see why people are so up in arms about activities that have been happening since the NSA was founded in the late 60s. People complain about their privacy being violated, but go out and use shoppers bonus cards, automatic toll paying devices on their cars, use callphones/cars with GPS devices, complete all their transactions with plastic instead of cash, give their personal information out for sweepstakes drawings, join social networks like myspace, and allow their personal information to be published in phone books. The reality is that the public truly isn't concerned about the privacy of their information in the least, their actions speak MUCH louder than words. Most of the information people claim to be so worried about is largely public record or readily available for a small price. The public is being such a drama queen about this.

Voluntarily giving out your personal information/giving up your privacy, and having it taken from you, are two ENTIRELY different things.

If you don't see the distinction, I'll just help myself to the contents of your wallet.

Mabey you never read the fine print when you sign a contract with a telecommunications company, or many other companies for that matter. All of that data you give them is no longer "private". They have the right to sell, or release as much or as little as they please. By doing business with these companies you already "gave up" your "privacy".
Nothing is being taken from you, because you already gave it up from the getgo.

If you really cared about your privacy, your life would be run completely different. Since no one cares enough to change their lifestyle, they really don't care. Are you really that concerned about phone records being collected by the NSA? Do you honestly think that they care about little you, or that they are up to some profound evil and gunning to make this country a socialist prison state?

Screw the fact that phone calls are being monitored, it's that they're being monitored without proper legal guidelines being followed.

So you don't care that it's being done, you don't care about the "invasion of privacy", you just care about the proper paperwork being filed?

The government can do a lot more with your information than a private company.

 

[Kadarin]

Originally posted by: Kaervak
Screw the fact that phone calls are being monitored, it's that they're being monitored without proper legal guidelines being followed.

This is the real problem. Without judicial and/or congressional oversight, there's no guarantee that this information would be used solely for legal purposes. It's easy to imagine a scenario where this (or another) presidential administration uses them not to find terrorists, but rather to investigate and potentially silence political rivals.

 

[Kaervak]

Originally posted by: SampSon

Screw the fact that phone calls are being monitored, it's that they're being monitored without proper legal guidelines being followed.

So you don't care that it's being done, you don't care about the "invasion of privacy", you just care about the proper paperwork being filed?

Oh I care very much, not just about "paperwork" but about having probable cause and a valid reason to tap phone conversations. Without them following the proper guidelines, they can decide to do whatever they want whenever they want regardless of if there's a threat or a valid reason. If the NSA doesn't need to get legal approval to tap phone lines and no one objects or fights them, what else will they no longer need legal approval to do?

 

[SampSon]

The government can do a lot more with your information than a private company.

So what? They already have all of my personal information, and yours too. The only reason you have any sort of clue of what the NSA is doing is because the media is covering it. If the media wasn't covering it you wouldn't even think about it.

What exactly do I have to fear? Black helicopters, black sedans and men in black suits knocking on my door? Yes, please come get my little bag of 2 year old weed, my prescription pain killers and my two turtles. Let them see that at 9:15am I called my gf. Then at 10:46 I called my broker. What do I care?

Do you really think any of this will actually affect the average american citizen? Are you doing the typical liberal thing and arguing the point just to argue it, or do you really think the govt is really out to get it's citizens?

This is the real problem. Without judicial and/or congressional oversight, there's no guarantee that this information would be used solely for legal purposes. It's easy to imagine a scenario where this (or another) presidential administration uses them not to find terrorists, but rather to investigate and potentially silence political rivals.

The political rivals/dissidents argument is always brought up, but really means nothing. Campaign/official govt business is public record anyway, what exactly are they going to use to "silence" someone? Unless the party in question is doing something illegal what do they have to worry about? Black helicopters and men in suits? There isn't a civil war going on.
Please provide a feasable scenario where this makes sense.

Oh I care very much, not just about "paperwork" but about having probable cause and a valid reason to tap phone conversations. Without them following the proper guidelines, they can decide to do whatever they want whenever they want regardless of if there's a threat or a valid reason. If the NSA doesn't need to get legal approval to tap phone lines and no one objects or fights them, what else will they no longer need legal approval to do?

They were doing whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted since day one. Why would you want all of the activities of your internal spy organization on public record? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of being spys? Might as well have the press release all the names and phone numbers of thoes parties who the NSA wants to monitor. Better yet, send a newsletter to thoes parties so they know they are being monitored, just to be fair.

I'm not saying the spying actions are all fine and dandy, but most people are vastly overreacting.

 

[fallensight]

Cheers to qwest. Any records should require a warrent. If you cant call the phone company and ask for the guy next door's phone records, then the government shouldnt either. The people with the mentality of "i'm not doing anything wrong, so I dont care" is short sighted and very, very dangerous. Once they get thier foot in the door, where does it stop? Ben Franklin had it right. "They who would sacrifice liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security"

 

[ultimatebob]

I have a problem with this for two reasons:

1) I don't believe that the government will just use these phone records simply to fight terrorism. From a marketing perspective, this data is too valuable. Think about it... you can use these records to track the general phone behaviors of every person in the US. I'm sure that some smart people with political ambitions will data mine this information to gain some great insights on people's phone habits, and then use them trivial things like finding the optimal time to call you and ask for campaign contributions

2) I also don't trust the government to properly secure this information. A database with EVERY US phone number AND when calls and made and received on that number would be the holy grail for both telemarketers and celebrity stalkers. If this database got hacked or leaked to the public, it would cause all kinds of problems.

 

[Kaervak]

Originally posted by: SampSon

Oh I care very much, not just about "paperwork" but about having probable cause and a valid reason to tap phone conversations. Without them following the proper guidelines, they can decide to do whatever they want whenever they want regardless of if there's a threat or a valid reason. If the NSA doesn't need to get legal approval to tap phone lines and no one objects or fights them, what else will they no longer need legal approval to do?

They were doing whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted since day one. Why would you want all of the activities of your internal spy organization on public record? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of being spys? Might as well have the press release all the names and phone numbers of thoes parties who the NSA wants to monitor. Better yet, send a newsletter to thoes parties so they know they are being monitored, just to be fair.

I'm not saying the spying actions are all fine and dandy, but most people are vastly overreacting.

I never said I want what they're doing on public record, I want them to have a vaild reason which they will have no trouble in getting a warrant to tap conversations, like they normally would have had to do.

I do agree, that some are overreacting (myself included) but if they can get away with not needing to follow the proper channels on phone tapping, what's to stop them from doing other things? Surveil anyone for any reason at all, sure. Look into a persons financial/travel records, ok. Kick down someone's door, arrest them, hold them without due process, trial or any charges at all, sure. Why? Because they "might" be a terrorist and now that we don't need a warrant anymore, proof doesn't matter.

Will any of that actually happen, probably not. Probably, I don't have trust in our government to not eventually end up doing just that. Call me paranoid, or "one of those" people, whatever you want. But if our own government doesn't feel the need to follow the very laws, checks and balances it has created, then why should they expect anyone else to do so.


And with this post, I'm now a terrorist because I'm questioning our government.

 

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by: SampSon
Heard about this for hours on my talk radio stations.

Funny how all of the senators and congressmen that are opposed to the NSA's and other agencies information gathering were the ones who supported the bill approving this type of activity during the Clinton administration. Hypocrites.

I don't see why people are so up in arms about activities that have been happening since the NSA was founded in the late 60s. People complain about their privacy being violated, but go out and use shoppers bonus cards, automatic toll paying devices on their cars, use callphones/cars with GPS devices, complete all their transactions with plastic instead of cash, give their personal information out for sweepstakes drawings, join social networks like myspace, and allow their personal information to be published in phone books. The reality is that the public truly isn't concerned about the privacy of their information in the least, their actions speak MUCH louder than words. Most of the information people claim to be so worried about is largely public record or readily available for a small price. The public is being such a drama queen about this.

What's really funny is that Qwest won't give up information to government agencies, but they will sell it to other companies for a profit. Very commedable... :roll:

/thread.

 

[SampSon]

Originally posted by: Kaervak

Originally posted by: SampSon

Oh I care very much, not just about "paperwork" but about having probable cause and a valid reason to tap phone conversations. Without them following the proper guidelines, they can decide to do whatever they want whenever they want regardless of if there's a threat or a valid reason. If the NSA doesn't need to get legal approval to tap phone lines and no one objects or fights them, what else will they no longer need legal approval to do?

They were doing whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted since day one. Why would you want all of the activities of your internal spy organization on public record? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of being spys? Might as well have the press release all the names and phone numbers of thoes parties who the NSA wants to monitor. Better yet, send a newsletter to thoes parties so they know they are being monitored, just to be fair.

I'm not saying the spying actions are all fine and dandy, but most people are vastly overreacting.

I never said I want what they're doing on public record, I want them to have a vaild reason which they will have no trouble in getting a warrant to tap conversations, like they normally would have had to do.

I do agree, that some are overreacting (myself included) but if they can get away with not needing to follow the proper channels on phone tapping, what's to stop them from doing other things? Surveil anyone for any reason at all, sure. Look into a persons financial/travel records, ok. Kick down someone's door, arrest them, hold them without due process, trial or any charges at all, sure. Why? Because they "might" be a terrorist and now that we don't need a warrant anymore, proof doesn't matter.

Will any of that actually happen, probably not. Probably, I don't have trust in our government to not eventually end up doing just that. Call me paranoid, or "one of those" people, whatever you want. But if our own government doesn't feel the need to follow the very laws, checks and balances it has created, then why should they expect anyone else to do so.

By going to the court to get a warrant, that matter becomes a part of public record. So in order to follow the guidelines, the motivation and the target must be on public record.

A persons financial records are wide open to anyone basically, look how credit reporting agencies have free reign. Travel records are being monitored anyway, unless you're talking about trips to the corner store or something. You must be doing something very noticable for the government to monitor you in the fashion you are speaking. If you are doing something that sets off enough red flags with the government so they watch you like that, you probably should be watched. There is a margin of error in everything, I would rather have that person being watched or held than doing whatever they were doing to set off the NSA/FBI/whoever to actually actively monitor them and capture them.

I'm not all pro government intervention, but people are really taking this overboard. The average citizen has nothing to worry about, unless you're plotting to blow up a bridge or something.

 

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by: SampSon


I'm not all pro government intervention, but people are really taking this overboard. The average citizen has nothing to worry about, unless you're plotting to blow up a bridge or something.

Aye. Some people think more red tape is actually a good thing...

 

[SampSon]

Originally posted by: Excelsior

Originally posted by: SampSon


I'm not all pro government intervention, but people are really taking this overboard. The average citizen has nothing to worry about, unless you're plotting to blow up a bridge or something.

Aye. Some people think more red-tape is a good thing?

Apparently. It's bad to say this, but mabey another major attack on US soil will spark some interest.

 

[Kilgor]

Originally posted by: SampSon

Originally posted by: Excelsior

Originally posted by: SampSon


I'm not all pro government intervention, but people are really taking this overboard. The average citizen has nothing to worry about, unless you're plotting to blow up a bridge or something.

Aye. Some people think more red-tape is a good thing?

Apparently. It's bad to say this, but mabey another major attack on US soil will spark some interest.

I don't think that we'll have another attack until after the next President gets elected.

 

[BunLengthHotDog]

Originally posted by: Jzero
I'd switch to Quest if they offered service in my area.

DING DING DING...you folks honestly think that Qwest is doing this to "protect the consumer" when, as its been so graciously pointed out already, they will readily sell your info to any other private organization for profit??

Please....they are doing this to buck the trend, so to speak...if all the other major telecoms are on record as having given the govt what they asked for, Qwest is merely doing the opposite to get their name in as many media outlet streams as possible.

The naivety around here is astounding, Qwest is thinking about nothing more than their bottom line.

 

[Brainonska511]

Originally posted by: SampSon

By going to the court to get a warrant, that matter becomes a part of public record. So in order to follow the guidelines, the motivation and the target must be on public record.

Actually, it isn't exactly public record when the executive branch needs a warrant for wire tapping. The FISA Court can secretly and quickly approve wire tapping warrants without the public ever knowing about them. Also, couldn't they have court records sealed if it was a matter of National Security. What is wrong with getting a warrant before doing what they are doing?