Finally, a company with cajones

[DaiShan]

Originally posted by: funboy42

Originally posted by: blurredvision
I'm definitely in the minority, but I say Qwest needs to give up the records. Personally, I never understand why everyone yells about privacy with stuff like this. Like the government is taking time to look over everything to see how many times I've called friends and family. If my phone records help catch a a terrorist, then we ALL benefit.

I know this will catch a LOT of heat here (probably), but I don't care. And I'm not going to bother arguing for my stance. Say what you will.

And with this kind of attitude is the reason were loosing more and more of our freedoms.

Yep, people just don't care any more.

 

[DaiShan]

Originally posted by: sling

Originally posted by: funboy42

Originally posted by: blurredvision
I'm definitely in the minority, but I say Qwest needs to give up the records. Personally, I never understand why everyone yells about privacy with stuff like this. Like the government is taking time to look over everything to see how many times I've called friends and family. If my phone records help catch a a terrorist, then we ALL benefit.

I know this will catch a LOT of heat here (probably), but I don't care. And I'm not going to bother arguing for my stance. Say what you will.

And with this kind of attitude is the reason were loosing more and more of our freedoms.

We're loosing freedoms? I don't feel like I've lost any freedoms at all. Sure, the NSA having my phone records is a little unsettling at first, but when you think about it it really isn't a huge deal for them to know how many times my wife calls me at work and such.

Sure....someone lost the freedom to sell decorative knives at the airport. But that's a little obvious. I just want to know which freedoms we've lost....that's all.

How about the right to a fair and speedy trial. Don't wanna be termed an enemy combatant, or your ass is off to G'tmo. You've gotta think of the snowball effect. Yeah it's not *that* big of a deal that they have our CDR's, so after a few years we think nothing of it, then they want transcripts of our conversations, well, its not that far a stretch, I mean they already know who we called, might as well let them know what we talked about, I mean we're not doing anything illegal. Let that settle a few years then they want cameras outside of your house etc. How many "terrorists" have we caught and prosecuted successfully with these ridiculous laws? Very few.

 

[kingpinxB]

Originally posted by: DaiShan

Originally posted by: sling

Originally posted by: funboy42

Originally posted by: blurredvision
I'm definitely in the minority, but I say Qwest needs to give up the records. Personally, I never understand why everyone yells about privacy with stuff like this. Like the government is taking time to look over everything to see how many times I've called friends and family. If my phone records help catch a a terrorist, then we ALL benefit.

I know this will catch a LOT of heat here (probably), but I don't care. And I'm not going to bother arguing for my stance. Say what you will.

And with this kind of attitude is the reason were loosing more and more of our freedoms.

We're loosing freedoms? I don't feel like I've lost any freedoms at all. Sure, the NSA having my phone records is a little unsettling at first, but when you think about it it really isn't a huge deal for them to know how many times my wife calls me at work and such.

Sure....someone lost the freedom to sell decorative knives at the airport. But that's a little obvious. I just want to know which freedoms we've lost....that's all.

How about the right to a fair and speedy trial. Don't wanna be termed an enemy combatant, or your ass is off to G'tmo. You've gotta think of the snowball effect. Yeah it's not *that* big of a deal that they have our CDR's, so after a few years we think nothing of it, then they want transcripts of our conversations, well, its not that far a stretch, I mean they already know who we called, might as well let them know what we talked about, I mean we're not doing anything illegal. Let that settle a few years then they want cameras outside of your house etc. How many "terrorists" have we caught and prosecuted successfully with these ridiculous laws? Very few.

"none" comes to mind...

 

[Brainonska511]

Originally posted by: kingpinxB

Originally posted by: DaiShan

Originally posted by: sling

Originally posted by: funboy42

Originally posted by: blurredvision
I'm definitely in the minority, but I say Qwest needs to give up the records. Personally, I never understand why everyone yells about privacy with stuff like this. Like the government is taking time to look over everything to see how many times I've called friends and family. If my phone records help catch a a terrorist, then we ALL benefit.

I know this will catch a LOT of heat here (probably), but I don't care. And I'm not going to bother arguing for my stance. Say what you will.

And with this kind of attitude is the reason were loosing more and more of our freedoms.

We're loosing freedoms? I don't feel like I've lost any freedoms at all. Sure, the NSA having my phone records is a little unsettling at first, but when you think about it it really isn't a huge deal for them to know how many times my wife calls me at work and such.

Sure....someone lost the freedom to sell decorative knives at the airport. But that's a little obvious. I just want to know which freedoms we've lost....that's all.

How about the right to a fair and speedy trial. Don't wanna be termed an enemy combatant, or your ass is off to G'tmo. You've gotta think of the snowball effect. Yeah it's not *that* big of a deal that they have our CDR's, so after a few years we think nothing of it, then they want transcripts of our conversations, well, its not that far a stretch, I mean they already know who we called, might as well let them know what we talked about, I mean we're not doing anything illegal. Let that settle a few years then they want cameras outside of your house etc. How many "terrorists" have we caught and prosecuted successfully with these ridiculous laws? Very few.

"none" comes to mind...

Why are they trying to gather more information too? Didn't the 9/11 Commsion state that the problem with the U.S. intelligence system was not intellegence gathering, but inter-agency communication and analyzation of collected data?

 

[Geekbabe]

Originally posted by: SampSon

Originally posted by: Kaervak

Originally posted by: SampSon

Oh I care very much, not just about "paperwork" but about having probable cause and a valid reason to tap phone conversations. Without them following the proper guidelines, they can decide to do whatever they want whenever they want regardless of if there's a threat or a valid reason. If the NSA doesn't need to get legal approval to tap phone lines and no one objects or fights them, what else will they no longer need legal approval to do?

They were doing whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted since day one. Why would you want all of the activities of your internal spy organization on public record? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of being spys? Might as well have the press release all the names and phone numbers of thoes parties who the NSA wants to monitor. Better yet, send a newsletter to thoes parties so they know they are being monitored, just to be fair.

I'm not saying the spying actions are all fine and dandy, but most people are vastly overreacting.

I never said I want what they're doing on public record, I want them to have a vaild reason which they will have no trouble in getting a warrant to tap conversations, like they normally would have had to do.

I do agree, that some are overreacting (myself included) but if they can get away with not needing to follow the proper channels on phone tapping, what's to stop them from doing other things? Surveil anyone for any reason at all, sure. Look into a persons financial/travel records, ok. Kick down someone's door, arrest them, hold them without due process, trial or any charges at all, sure. Why? Because they "might" be a terrorist and now that we don't need a warrant anymore, proof doesn't matter.

Will any of that actually happen, probably not. Probably, I don't have trust in our government to not eventually end up doing just that. Call me paranoid, or "one of those" people, whatever you want. But if our own government doesn't feel the need to follow the very laws, checks and balances it has created, then why should they expect anyone else to do so.

By going to the court to get a warrant, that matter becomes a part of public record. So in order to follow the guidelines, the motivation and the target must be on public record.

A persons financial records are wide open to anyone basically, look how credit reporting agencies have free reign. Travel records are being monitored anyway, unless you're talking about trips to the corner store or something. You must be doing something very noticable for the government to monitor you in the fashion you are speaking. If you are doing something that sets off enough red flags with the government so they watch you like that, you probably should be watched. There is a margin of error in everything, I would rather have that person being watched or held than doing whatever they were doing to set off the NSA/FBI/whoever to actually actively monitor them and capture them.

I'm not all pro government intervention, but people are really taking this overboard. The average citizen has nothing to worry about, unless you're plotting to blow up a bridge or something.

If the government thinks me or mine might be doing something that bears watching, they need to take their case and plead it before a judge and get a warrant !

A lot of people think this sort of thing is okay.. as long as the government is looking for öther"people.

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: blurredvision
I'm definitely in the minority, but I say Qwest needs to give up the records. Personally, I never understand why everyone yells about privacy with stuff like this. Like the government is taking time to look over everything to see how many times I've called friends and family. If my phone records help catch a a terrorist, then we ALL benefit.

I know this will catch a LOT of heat here (probably), but I don't care. And I'm not going to bother arguing for my stance. Say what you will.

The problem with call monitoring is, it's still a human being checking for "illegal" activity. History shows that corrupt governments spying on their citizens have a habit of eventually pursuing anyone who opposes the government.
Example of possible abuse - a vehement anti-abortionist gets a job at the NSA, and begins keeping an eye on people who phone into abortion clinics.

And simply put, spying on citizens is against the 4th Amendment.
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Phone calls are electronic effects. They are to be secure against the government spying on them unless they have a warrant to do so. Simple as that.


Frankly, this attitude of "oh well, it doesn't bother me, I'm not doing anything wrong" is scary. You don't know what the agendas are of those who are monitoring the information. Now it's under the useful guise of fighting terrorism. Who are we going to root out next? Drug dealers? Software pirates? Porn viewers? Whistleblowers? Anyone who dissents? Where might it end?
Everyone says, "Oh, it'll never happen." May I remind you that it was just in the mid 1900's that we had leaders in Germany and Russia who were willing to kill millions of their own citizens to satisfy their own agendas. Not really all that long ago. I don't think that the species has evolved all that far in that short time. Power still corrupts today just as it has over the past few thousand years.

If the government thinks me or mine might be doing something that bears watching, they need to take their case and plead it before a judge and get a warrant !

A lot of people think this sort of thing is okay.. as long as the government is looking for öther"people.

Agreed.
Blurredvision - what if you happen to be making a lot of calls to 555-6699, but the Saddam Sympathizers Hotline is 555-9966? You wind up being placed in jail, not arrested, but "held" indefinitely, without access to a lawyer, without permission to speak to your family, without the ability to defend yourself in that it was the wrong phone number (which you wouldn't even know, since you were never officially charged with anything), to be tried before a secret court. But hey, you shouldn't complain about it. You supported it.

 

[Goosemaster]

Originally posted by: Jeff7

Originally posted by: blurredvision
I'm definitely in the minority, but I say Qwest needs to give up the records. Personally, I never understand why everyone yells about privacy with stuff like this. Like the government is taking time to look over everything to see how many times I've called friends and family. If my phone records help catch a a terrorist, then we ALL benefit.

I know this will catch a LOT of heat here (probably), but I don't care. And I'm not going to bother arguing for my stance. Say what you will.

The problem with call monitoring is, it's still a human being checking for "illegal" activity. History shows that corrupt governments spying on their citizens have a habit of eventually pursuing anyone who opposes the government.
Example of possible abuse - a vehement anti-abortionist gets a job at the NSA, and begins keeping an eye on people who phone into abortion clinics.

And simply put, spying on citizens is against the 4th Amendment.
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Phone calls are electronic effects. They are to be secure against the government spying on them unless they have a warrant to do so. Simple as that.


Frankly, this attitude of "oh well, it doesn't bother me, I'm not doing anything wrong" is scary. You don't know what the agendas are of those who are monitoring the information. Now it's under the useful guise of fighting terrorism. Who are we going to root out next? Drug dealers? Software pirates? Porn viewers? Whistleblowers? Anyone who dissents? Where might it end?
Everyone says, "Oh, it'll never happen." May I remind you that it was just in the mid 1900's that we had leaders in Germany and Russia who were willing to kill millions of their own citizens to satisfy their own agendas. Not really all that long ago. I don't think that the species has evolved all that far in that short time. Power still corrupts today just as it has over the past few thousand years.

That said, I see this as an oppertunist action on the part of Quest.

They have such a horrific financial past and this is something that will get their name out nad perhaps, in their beleive instill confidence in their clients that no one is easedropping on theri corporate communications or otherwise

 

[Kaervak]

Originally posted by: Excelsior
Aye. Some people think more red tape is actually a good thing...

How is following an already established means of obtaining a warrant more red tape? Maybe I'm the crazy one, but I don't want our government and it's agencies to be above the law, with no one to be held responsible or have anyone to answer to, free to collect and use whatever information they want, whenever they want without any sort of proof or authorization to do so. That is what this issue is about to me. If the unauthorized wiretapping by the NSA is ok with you, what else that the NSA may do without the proper authority is ok? Like I said, I guess I'm the crazy one wanting accountability and things kept in check.