Figthing for The lazy & Stupid - CTU & Democrats

[Moonbeam]

A real brilliant statement coming from someone who cannot see the difference between a public sector union and a private sector union.

You mean like one is public sector and one is private sector or are you referring to the altered reality definitions that exist inside your head, having been put there as a result of being a barn animal.

 

[unokitty]

People are trying to make this some sort of pissing contest about whether unions are good or bad, ignoring the grievances by the actual teachers and whatever deal is eventually reached. You cannot put students first by putting teachers last.

<--nonunion teacher

You think that:

$79K dollars for a 10 month year of 6 hour days is putting teachers last?

16% raises for continuing to breath is putting teachers last?

No performance metrics, no links of student success to teacher pay is putting teachers last?

Teachers union won. Students lost.

Uno

 

[Throckmorton]

There is no place for public unions, by taking a Government offered job you are participating in the Union already. The Union of people who recognize the Government and lend it the ability to take action in their place. It's absolutely ridiculous that it was ever allowed.

Why exactly do you think public workers shouldn't be able to bargain collectively? They should trust taxpayers to pay them what they're worth? Is that why there workers at the County of Maui making $10/hr, which is not even a living wage?

 

[Throckmorton]

When I first started my career I went from $30k to $32k in 2 months, and over 3 years reached $42k. That's a 40% raise over 3 years. And somehow 16% over 4 years is supposed to be too much for teachers?

 

[feralkid]

But not so stupid I don't know how to spell 'you're', moron.

Just kidding. Many even bright people don't know how to spell, maybe because they are auditory rather than visual.

Well maybe that explains the "Fig thing" in the thread title.

 

[MovingTarget]

You think that:

$79K dollars for a 10 month year of 6 hour days is putting teachers last?

16% raises for continuing to breath is putting teachers last?

No performance metrics, no links of student success to teacher pay is putting teachers last?

Teachers union won. Students lost.

Uno

Nobody would think that. Then again, anybody that has ever taught in a K-12 classroom would know that what you posted above has little to do with the reality of teaching. Its pure propaganda.

 

[MovingTarget]

When I first started my career I went from $30k to $32k in 2 months, and over 3 years reached $42k. That's a 40% raise over 3 years. And somehow 16% over 4 years is supposed to be too much for teachers?

It took me 3 years to do as a math teacher what you did in two months in your field...and I'm one of the lucky ones. I have a masters degree in math and work at a school that hasn't had pay freezes or, God forbid, pay cuts to keep the lights on.

 

[michal1980]

Nobody would think that. Then again, anybody that has ever taught in a K-12 classroom would know that what you posted above has little to do with the reality of teaching. Its pure propaganda.

Progaganda is the crap the teachers & there unions put out.

"its for the kids"

"we work 10 million hours a week"

"omg we have to get more traing to get a raise [shhh dont tell anyone we bargained for that]"

------------

Reality - we want to suck the tax payers dry - yearly gaurenteed wage increases, paid for pensions

-protection for the worst & lazest teachers. giving any teacher no matter how good, or poor the same raise, because were all the same.

 

[MovingTarget]

Progaganda is the crap the teachers & there unions put out.

"It's for the kids."

"We work 10 million hours a week."

"Omg we have to get more training to get a raise [shhh don't tell anyone we bargained for that]"

------------

Reality - we want to suck the tax payers dry - yearly guaranteed wage increases, paid for pensions

-protection for the worst & laziest teachers. giving any teacher no matter how good, or poor the same raise, because were all the same.

Repeating the same anti-teacher talking points doesn't make any of them true. You know nothing of the profession outside of your wildly inaccurate perceptions and experiences as a child.

 

[MooseNSquirrel]

Short of negotiating in 10 lashes a week for each teacher in a union,none of the anti-union frothers would ever be happy with any deal signed by a Democrat.

 

[unokitty]

Short of negotiating in 10 lashes a week for each teacher in a union,none of the anti-union frothers would ever be happy with any deal signed by a Democrat.

You ever carry a union card? I have Teamsters Local 743. Where did you learn about unions?

It would be different if Chicago Public Schools was taking care of education. But as CNN has observed:

"Nearly 80% of eighth-graders in Chicago public schools are not proficient in reading or math, according to the U.S. Department of Education. ...

A dropout rate of nearly four students in 10 is a national disgrace. For 25 years, Chicago's teachers' unions have held the city's parents and students hostage while morally and financially bankrupting the city. Chicago public schools are $665 million in debt, and that debt is expected to exceed $1 billion next year."


Students aren't learning. System is soon to be a billion dollars in debt. And all the teachers want is more for them.

You and the union are welcome to like the status quo.

Me, I'd like to see some change.

Uno

 

[michal1980]

Repeating the same anti-teacher talking points doesn't make any of them true. You know nothing of the profession outside of your wildly inaccurate perceptions and experiences as a child.

I wish I knew nothing of the profession.

But I know lots. And its said that union sheep like you continue to support the same crap over and over again.

When CPS teachers produce quality students, then maybe we could talk about generaly salary increases.

But the CTU doesn't care about kids, they want to work the least amount possible, for the most amount possible, AND not be responsbile for anything they produce.


Talk about living the high life. I can see why the stupid and igrnorant are so tied to unions. Alone in the world they would be left in the dust.

 

[K1052]

Chicago public schools are $665 million in debt, and that debt is expected to exceed $1 billion next year."


Students aren't learning. System is soon to be a billion dollars in debt. And all the teachers want is more for them.

Legacy pension cost. CPS was allowed to cut payments into the pension system for a 3 year period. The state legislature didn't want to actually deal with the problem so they kicked it down the road.

 

[MovingTarget]

I wish I knew nothing of the profession.

But I know lots. And its said that union sheep like you continue to support the same crap over and over again.

When CPS teachers produce quality students, then maybe we could talk about generaly salary increases.

But the CTU doesn't care about kids, they want to work the least amount possible, for the most amount possible, AND not be responsible for anything they produce.


Talk about living the high life. I can see why the stupid and ignorant are so tied to unions. Alone in the world they would be left in the dust.

Here we go again. First, I am not a member of any teachers' union. You need to stop viewing this as a unions vs. students type of situation. Teachers want to be able to do their jobs effectively AND be able to provide for themselves just like any other worker. There is nothing wrong with that.

Second, you have not addressed or even recognized any of the grievances of the CTU. You directly link student performance to personal teacher performance without any regard to compensation, working conditions, or even the support required to do the job asked of them. It doesn't even take into account the specific needs of the students of the district, which most certainly are not uniform between districts or even individual schools. That is asinine.

I get results in my own classroom, but that is only because I have the materials to do my job, a reasonable class size, and the full support of my administration and parents. And guess what...I get paid much, much less than my public school counterparts. I stay there despite this because I am forced to make the trade-off of either making ends meat or doing my job effectively. I cannot continue to make that choice forever, and my school will lose a valuable resource. I don't begrudge public school teachers their pay, because they are asked to do so much more with so little in comparison. Many school systems, particularly impoverished ones, have none of the support that I do. Students are people, not widgets on a production line. You cannot put students first by putting teachers last.

 

[cybrsage]

Unions...sacrificing the eduction of children since forever...

 

[michal1980]

Here we go again. First, I am not a member of any teachers' union. You need to stop viewing this as a unions vs. students type of situation. Teachers want to be able to do their jobs effectively AND be able to provide for themselves just like any other worker. There is nothing wrong with that.

Second, you have not addressed or even recognized any of the grievances of the CTU. You directly link student performance to personal teacher performance without any regard to compensation, working conditions, or even the support required to do the job asked of them. It doesn't even take into account the specific needs of the students of the district, which most certainly are not uniform between districts or even individual schools. That is asinine.

I get results in my own classroom, but that is only because I have the materials to do my job, a reasonable class size, and the full support of my administration and parents. And guess what...I get paid much, much less than my public school counterparts. I stay there despite this because I am forced to make the trade-off of either making ends meat or doing my job effectively. I cannot continue to make that choice forever, and my school will lose a valuable resource. I don't begrudge public school teachers their pay, because they are asked to do so much more with so little in comparison. Many school systems, particularly impoverished ones, have none of the support that I do. Students are people, not widgets on a production line. You cannot put students first by putting teachers last.

CTU teachers put students last.

Why should I put the teachers any higher then what they do to the students? They fail kids every day. Then stick their hands out and ask for more.

And its not like the CTU teachers are paid peanuts. There median salary is vary comparable to that of others with college degrees, and they work far less, without any responsibilty.

A CTU teacher fails to teach, oh well, its not the teachers fault, its everyone elses but the teachers. Because we all know CTU teachers are perfect.

 

[unokitty]

Here we go again. First, I am not a member of any teachers' union. You need to stop viewing this as a unions vs. students type of situation. Teachers want to be able to do their jobs effectively AND be able to provide for themselves just like any other worker. There is nothing wrong with that.

Second, you have not addressed or even recognized any of the grievances of the CTU. You directly link student performance to personal teacher performance without any regard to compensation, working conditions, or even the support required to do the job asked of them. It doesn't even take into account the specific needs of the students of the district, which most certainly are not uniform between districts or even individual schools. That is asinine.

I get results in my own classroom, but that is only because I have the materials to do my job, a reasonable class size, and the full support of my administration and parents. And guess what...I get paid much, much less than my public school counterparts. I stay there despite this because I am forced to make the trade-off of either making ends meat or doing my job effectively. I cannot continue to make that choice forever, and my school will lose a valuable resource. I don't begrudge public school teachers their pay, because they are asked to do so much more with so little in comparison. Many school systems, particularly impoverished ones, have none of the support that I do. Students are people, not widgets on a production line. You cannot put students first by putting teachers last.

I'm think we may be looking at this from different perspectives. I was born and raised in Chicago. And from my perspective, it is a union vs the students issue. Lets look at how a recent CNN article described it:

"Once again, the Chicago Teachers Union is showing its true colors: self-serving public sector bullies more interested in their well-being than the well-being of students."

You say that you get results in your classroom. You do realize that "Nearly 80% of eighth-graders in Chicago public schools are not proficient in reading or math, according to the U.S. Department of Education." And that Chicago public high schools have "A dropout rate of nearly four students in 10 ..."

What percentage of your eight graders are proficient in reading or math? More that the 20% of Chicago Public Schools? What is the drop out rate at your high schools? Less than the 4 out of 10 of Chicago Public Schools?

How is the fiscal health of your ISD? I trust that it is less that Chicago Public Schools $665 million dollars of debt.

So when CNN says:

"For 25 years, the union has blocked and impeded educational progress. The time for change is long overdue."

I agree with them. Time for a change.

Uno

 

[waggy]

I'm think we may be looking at this from different perspectives. I was born and raised in Chicago. And from my perspective, it is a union vs the students issue. Lets look at how a recent CNN article described it:

"Once again, the Chicago Teachers Union is showing its true colors: self-serving public sector bullies more interested in their well-being than the well-being of students."

You say that you get results in your classroom. You do realize that "Nearly 80% of eighth-graders in Chicago public schools are not proficient in reading or math, according to the U.S. Department of Education." And that Chicago public high schools have "A dropout rate of nearly four students in 10 ..."

What percentage of your eight graders are proficient in reading or math? More that the 20% of Chicago Public Schools? What is the drop out rate at your high schools? Less than the 4 out of 10 of Chicago Public Schools?

How is the fiscal health of your ISD? I trust that it is less that Chicago Public Schools $665 million dollars of debt.

So when CNN says:

"For 25 years, the union has blocked and impeded educational progress. The time for change is long overdue."

I agree with them. Time for a change.

Uno

i agree. I would NOT Live in chicago. The school system is not set up to educate kids. it's to give them a basic understanding so they can fill out welfare and bond checks. that's it. its a over glorified daycare. The teachers union has NEVER been about the students. its all about the teachers. well duh they are the ones that pay the dues!

If i had people who were not even hitting the state avarage in the work i would fire them. NO way in hell would i give them a raise!

Though Rahm is also a fucking idiot. yeah lets force the kids to be in school longer and take away teachers free periods! (yes teachers NEED those free periods) He did this WITHOUT notice and then offered a shitty $1200 a year raise. ARE YOU NUTS? did he forget who he was dealing with? or did he do it this way so that it would be passe? knowing offering teachers a 14% raise off the bad would cause to to fail?

either way it is not going to matter. the number of kids that drop out is going to continue to be high (bet it increases). The number of kids that graduate IS NOT going to raise either.

 

[K1052]

There is a lot of vitriol in here about a deal that's not even been released to the public yet and probably won't until later tonight at the earliest, after the delegates vote. It is also possible (though not super likely) that whatever deal worked out will fail to be approved by the delegates...that's one potential downside of how CTU has framed this situation.

 

[Greenman]

The union got another great deal rubber stamped by the people they put in office, why does that surprise anyone? In realistic terms, all this deal does is move up the day that the state goes broke. Based on what I've read, that day will be pretty soon.

 

[1prophet]

There is no place for public unions, by taking a Government offered job you are participating in the Union already. The Union of people who recognize the Government and lend it the ability to take action in their place. It's absolutely ridiculous that it was ever allowed.

There is definitely a place for unions in the public sector as employee advocates if nothing else,

because there are a lot of asshole manager/bosses who make up for their many shortcomings by shitting on the employees assigned to them and threatening various repercussions if the employee complains like bad reviews, bullshit duties, to termination if they dare complain up the chain.

And before anyone says there are laws against many abuses, have fun getting a good lawyer without going broke when you don't have a union to represent you.

 

[unokitty]

There is definitely a place for unions in the public sector as employee advocates if nothing else,

because there are a lot of asshole manager/bosses who make up for their many shortcomings by shitting on the employees assigned to them and threatening various repercussions if the employee complains like bad reviews, bullshit duties, to termination if they dare complain up the chain.

And before anyone says there are laws against many abuses, have fun getting a good lawyer without going broke when you don't have a union to represent you.

Whether of not public sector unions are appropriate isn't the issue here.

No one is doubting that the Chicago Teachers Union is doing a great job advocating for the teachers.

Problem being that no one is advocating for the students.

And with 4 out of 10 freshmen dropping out before graduating and only about 20% of eighth graders being up to the national norms in reading or math, it doesn't seem to me that the status quo of the Chicago Public Schools is good for the students.

And since the teachers union issues are limited to increasing their pay and making sure that they are no metrics that link student learning to their pay, there are no issues that the union is negotiating that would improve student education. For the union, its all about teacher's pay and maintaining a lack of accountability.

You ever carried a union card? I have. What union experience do you have? I've earned the right to disdain unions.

Have a boss you don't like? Here's an idea. Get a new one. No one ever forced me to work for anyone I didn't like or respect. (Okay, there was that time I was in the Army. But since my platoon went through seven platoon leaders in 15 months and 28 days, its not like any one of them was a long term issue...)

You are free to think that unions or lawsuits are solutions to your problems of getting along with your boss.

Me, if an organization doesn't treat me a way that is congruent with my expectations, I just go work for a different one.

Haven't needed unions or lawsuits.

Uno

 

[Darwin333]

It took me 3 years to do as a math teacher what you did in two months in your field...and I'm one of the lucky ones. I have a masters degree in math and work at a school that hasn't had pay freezes or, God forbid, pay cuts to keep the lights on.

Look, teachers should be paid a lot more and imo their benefits, which are often completely unsustainable, should be largely slashed or teacher contributions significantly raised (which if I had my way would work out fine due to their much larger salaries).

I still think that public unions in their current form have no place in our society. It has nothing to do with being anti-teacher because I am not. I realize that the vast majority of teachers work a fuckload more than 6 hours a day as some claim and their job is one of the most important in our society. The education requirements are huge, etc etc and they should be paid accordingly. However, our current system is beyond fucked.

 

[MovingTarget]

I'm think we may be looking at this from different perspectives. I was born and raised in Chicago. And from my perspective, it is a union vs the students issue. Lets look at how a recent CNN article described it:

"Once again, the Chicago Teachers Union is showing its true colors: self-serving public sector bullies more interested in their well-being than the well-being of students."

You say that you get results in your classroom. You do realize that "Nearly 80% of eighth-graders in Chicago public schools are not proficient in reading or math, according to the U.S. Department of Education." And that Chicago public high schools have "A dropout rate of nearly four students in 10 ..."

What percentage of your eight graders are proficient in reading or math? More that the 20% of Chicago Public Schools? What is the drop out rate at your high schools? Less than the 4 out of 10 of Chicago Public Schools?

How is the fiscal health of your ISD? I trust that it is less that Chicago Public Schools $665 million dollars of debt.

So when CNN says:

"For 25 years, the union has blocked and impeded educational progress. The time for change is long overdue."

I agree with them. Time for a change.

Uno

That is an opinion piece, which does not represent CNN as a whole. You are right though, I do look at this from a different perspective. I know what it is like to teach without any union protection. I see my public school counterparts not being given the support that they need to do their jobs effectively. I'm not saying the union is in the right here, as no deal has been published.

The reactionaries here want to paint the teachers/union in the wrong simply because they belong to the union. That simply is not right. Paying teachers what they are worth, making sure their class sizes are reasonable, giving them the administrator and material support they need, etc. is part of why the union is striking. That is NOT anti-student.

If you want to talk about reform of the system, fine, then do that. But shitting on teachers for acting collectively is pretty low. Change may be necessary in CPS, but not all changes in education are for the better. Some of the recent "improvement" trends in education are anything but, so be careful what you wish for.

 

[K1052]

A few more details are leaking out. Supposedly the new contract has no limits on new charter schools nor the closure or consolidation of existing CPS schools. I suspect this was Rahm's ultimate goal.

Given that the CPS 5 year plan includes closing or consolidating up to 120 schools, creating 60 or more new charter schools and perhaps only 30-40 new CPS run schools I'd say that whatever concessions the CTU won are going to be somewhat muted.