Fighting the last war

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,505
2
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http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/will020912.php3

Through 11 presidential elections, beginning with the Democrats’ nomination of George McGovern in 1972, Republicans have enjoyed a presumption of superiority regarding national security. This year, however, events and their rhetoric are dissipating their advantage.

Hours — not months, not weeks, hours — after the last U.S. troops left Iraq, vicious political factionalism and sectarian violence intensified. Many Republicans say Barack Obama’s withdrawal — accompanied by his administration’s foolish praise of Iraq’s “stability” — has jeopardized what has been achieved there. But if it cannot survive a sunrise without fraying, how much of an achievement was it?

Few things so embitter a nation as squandered valor; hence Americans, with much valor spent there, want Iraq to master its fissures. But with America in the second decade of its longest war, the probable Republican nominee is promising to extend it indefinitely.

Mitt Romney opposes negotiations with the Taliban while they “are killing our soldiers.” Which means: No negotiations until the war ends, when there will be nothing about which to negotiate. “We don’t,” he says, “negotiate from a position of weakness as we are pulling our troops out.” That would mean stopping the drawdown of U.S. forces — except Romney would not negotiate even from a position of strength: “We should not negotiate with the Taliban. We should defeat the Taliban.” How could that be achieved in a second decade of war? What metrics would establish “defeat”? Details to come, perhaps.

The U.S. defense budget is about 43 percent of the world’s total military spending — more than the combined defense spending of the next 17 nations, many of which are U.S. allies. Are Republicans really going to warn voters that America will be imperiled if the defense budget is cut 8 percent from projections over the next decade? In 2017, defense spending would still be more than that of the next 10 countries combined.

Do Republicans think it is premature to withdraw as many as 7,000 troops from Europe two decades after the Soviet Union’s death? About 73,000 will remain, most of them in prosperous, pacific, largely unarmed and utterly unthreatened Germany. Why do so many remain?

Since 2001, the United States has waged war in three nations, and some Republicans appear ready to bring the total to five, adding Iran and Syria. (The Weekly Standard, of neoconservative bent, regrets that Obama “is reluctant to intervene to oust Iran’s closest ally, Syrian President Bashar al-Assad.”) GOP critics say that Obama’s proposed defense cuts will limit America’s ability to engage in troop-intensive nation-building. Most Americans probably say: Good.

Critics say that defense cuts will limit America’s ability to intervene abroad as it has recently done. Well. Even leaving aside Iraq and Afghanistan, do Americans want defense spending to enable a rump of NATO — principally, Britain and France — to indulge moral ambitions and imperial nostalgia in Libya, and perhaps elsewhere, using U.S. materiel and competence?

Defense Secretary Leon Panetta says that the Army should contract from 570,000 soldiers to 490,000 in a decade. Romney says that the military should have 100,000 more troops than it does. (The Army is 88,000 larger than it was before Afghanistan and Iraq.) Romney may be right, but he should connect that judgment to specific assessments of threats and ambitions.

Romney says: “It is unacceptable for Iran to have a nuclear weapon,” that if he is elected, Iran will not get such a weapon, and if Obama is reelected, it will. He also says that Obama “has made it very clear that he’s not willing to do those things necessary to get Iran to be dissuaded from” its nuclear ambitions.” Romney may, however, be premature in assuming the futility of new sanctions the Obama administration is orchestrating, and Panetta says Iran acquiring nuclear weapons is “unacceptable” and “a red line for us” and if “we get intelligence that they are proceeding with developing a nuclear weapon, then we will take whatever steps necessary to stop it.” What, then, is the difference between Romney and Obama regarding Iran?

Osama bin Laden and many other “high-value targets” are dead, the drone war is being waged more vigorously than ever, and Guantanamo is still open, so Republicans can hardly say that Obama has implemented dramatic and dangerous discontinuities regarding counterterrorism. Obama says that, even with his proposed cuts, the defense budget would increase at about the rate of inflation through the next decade. Republicans who think America is being endangered by “appeasement” and military parsimony have worked that pedal on their organ quite enough.

Obviously, it's an election year and the GOP will, naturally, throw everything it can against Obama... but that doesn't mean what they're throwing is right.

The fact that the Republican presidential candidates feel the need to say these things to score votes points out the insanity of the block of voters they're appealing to with this issue.

Certainly, there are Democratic analogues to this scenario... but let's acknowledge such ridiculousness as what it is when it surfaces.
 
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manimal

Lifer
Mar 30, 2007
13,559
8
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War hawks will keep chirping. People are starting to see them for what they are. They have the weakest position in Washington for a generation and will continue to be marginalized.


When Lynn Cheney becomes your defacto spokesman you are in trouble. I still am mindful of the Dick Armeys of the world and their influence though.


This political season has become a fantasy football draft .
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
I think this issue is like any major policy. They can lie and scare their way into our minds for so long. But eventually the empirical evidence bites the policy in the ass. I look at this Iran issue as the issue that the people are finally looking back and realizing these people are full of shit. A good analogy I can think of is the gun issue. For decades the anti-gun crowd was able to use scare tactics about gun battles in our streets to justify curtailing of gun rights. But decades upon decades of evidence has shown their position to be full of shit. People as whole woke up.

People are asking why are we defending Europe, Korea, and Japan? Why are we putting two carrier groups in the persian gulf along with over 100,000 troops to defend Saudi Arabia from Iran? We cant afford it and it doesnt make sense. The world needs to sort out its own fucking problems on their own dime.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
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Oct 30, 2000
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I think this issue is like any major policy. They can lie and scare their way into our minds for so long. But eventually the empirical evidence bites the policy in the ass. I look at this Iran issue as the issue that the people are finally looking back and realizing these people are full of shit. A good analogy I can think of is the gun issue. For decades the anti-gun crowd was able to use scare tactics about gun battles in our streets to justify curtailing of gun rights. But decades upon decades of evidence has shown their position to be full of shit. People as whole woke up.

People are asking why are we defending Europe, Korea, and Japan? Why are we putting two carrier groups in the persian gulf along with over 100,000 troops to defend Saudi Arabia from Iran? We cant afford it and it doesnt make sense. The world needs to sort out its own fucking problems on their own dime.

Not acting like a war hawk, but what happened to that train of thought in 1917, 1937 and 1967.

The world chooses to bury it's head in the sand because it is inconvenient to stand up to the bully on the block at that time.

There are still bullies out there, biding their time
 

Anarchist420

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2010
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Not acting like a war hawk, but what happened to that train of thought in 1917, 1937 and 1967.

The world chooses to bury it's head in the sand because it is inconvenient to stand up to the bully on the block at that time.

There are still bullies out there, biding their time
The fact that Americans died in those wars were the fault of the American state. How is that so hard to understand?:)
 

Anarchist420

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2010
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Also, Obama is not going to cut military spending. He's going to increase it. when a politician says they're going to cut $x over x number of years, that means they're going to increase it.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
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Defense Secretary Leon Panetta says that the Army should contract from 570,000 soldiers to 490,000 in a decade.

I agree with him. Maybe even less, but more capable troops via better technology.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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Negotiating with the Taliban is is useless. We need to let the President of Kabul deal with them and we get out. Heaven help the Afghanis.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Not acting like a war hawk, but what happened to that train of thought in 1917, 1937 and 1967.

The world chooses to bury it's head in the sand because it is inconvenient to stand up to the bully on the block at that time.

There are still bullies out there, biding their time

It isnt our job to defend these rich nations from other bullies. They can more than defend themselves today. Our country's citizens shouldnt be asked to fund the defense of Europe, Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Israel, and Saudi Arabia. These are nations that have plenty of wealth to do it on their own.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
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Oct 30, 2000
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Question of cost or a question of force placement? Having forces prepositioned acts as a deterent and speeds up deployment if needed.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
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Question of cost or a question of force placement? Having forces prepositioned acts as s deterent and speeds up deployment if needed.

Well arent these one in the same? Having forces prepositioned in any country isnt free. And a deterent to what? If the host nations military wasnt so meager because they have US troops stationed there. They may invest in their own defense and act as the deterent instead.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
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Oct 30, 2000
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Look what Russia recently did to Georgia. China's threat to SE Asia. Philippine, Vietnam, etc do not have the wealth or military to stand up against China. It is our force projection that is preventing takeaways
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,505
2
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Yes, clearly everywhere we have forces must continue to have forces, in perpetuity. There's simply no way our national security can be maintained and our allies defended without us having forces deployed in 100% of the areas of the world in which we currently have them.

[/sarcasm]

:rolleyes:
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Look what Russia recently did to Georgia. China's threat to SE Asia. Philippine, Vietnam, etc do not have the wealth or military to stand up against China. It is our force projection that is preventing takeaways

Yeah! Look what Russia did to Afghanistan!!!! Oh wait...
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
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Look what Russia recently did to Georgia. China's threat to SE Asia. Philippine, Vietnam, etc do not have the wealth or military to stand up against China. It is our force projection that is preventing takeaways

We dont have the wealth to do it now either, we just refuse to accept it.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
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-snip-
Why are we putting two carrier groups in the persian gulf along with over 100,000 troops to defend Saudi Arabia from Iran? We cant afford it and it doesnt make sense. The world needs to sort out its own fucking problems on their own dime.

I think we're doing it out of our own economic interests.

If the poop hits the fan over there and oil shipments are interrupted our, and the world's, economy will tank overnight. And tank bad.

Fern
 

JTsyo

Lifer
Nov 18, 2007
12,035
1,134
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We dont have the wealth to do it now either, we just refuse to accept it.

We should have the host country help pick up the bill. But more often we send them money along with the troops.
 

jackschmittusa

Diamond Member
Apr 16, 2003
5,972
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JTsyo

It is not always about defending the host country. It can be considered a safe place for our arms and people with excellent cooperation from the host country and using existing facilities. Simply a practical matter.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
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By having troops in Saudi Arabia, for example, we ensure the stability of the flow of oil out of that nation. This is vital to the economy of the US, so we should have them there.

A huge base in Germany is good, since it is central Europe. Easy to get to a lot of places from there. We don't need any in England, France, Spain, Italy, etc.
 

JTsyo

Lifer
Nov 18, 2007
12,035
1,134
126
By having troops in Saudi Arabia, for example, we ensure the stability of the flow of oil out of that nation. This is vital to the economy of the US, so we should have them there.

A huge base in Germany is good, since it is central Europe. Easy to get to a lot of places from there. We don't need any in England, France, Spain, Italy, etc.

yea but why do we need to easily get to places in Europe?
 

BladeVenom

Lifer
Jun 2, 2005
13,365
16
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Also, Obama is not going to cut military spending. He's going to increase it. when a politician says they're going to cut $x over x number of years, that means they're going to increase it.

They authorize themselves to spend 20% more, then only spend 10% more, and say they've cut 10%. Spending cuts are usually a joke.