You can list a million examples and they'll just come up with excuses.......Theres no point in arguing, we just need to stop our military aid.
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Fifty US generals and admirals respond to Obama's Israel policy
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You can list a million examples and they'll just come up with excuses.......Theres no point in arguing, we just need to stop our military aid.
Ah, the Hitler school of thought. You post idiocy.
SamurAchzar
Platinum Member
Well Craig, people will always want power and influence. In the way, they will be prepared to harm other people. This is the human race and there's not much that you can do with it. For the same reason Communism can't work, so can't pacifism. The best thing you can do to maintain a society with your own enlightened values is to be prepared to defend it.
Noobtastic
Banned
Britain is not politically closer to the US is - Israel is.
Britain is a sovereign nation whose foreign policy has historically been in conflict with USA. It's approach towards the Islamic tribes is far from, well - let's just say, fair and just.
As far as jet engines go, what?
Like I said, Israel has contributed more to the US defense industry than all NATO allies combined.
And while BAE might be the largest defense company in the world, it is not the most celebrated.
Britain went to Israel after 7/7. USA went to Israel after 9/11. India went to Israel after Mumbai.
You continue to argue on a false premise that Israel is somehow secondary to Europe patently false) and that its status as an ally is because it is a convenient landing strip.
That too is retarded, since USA does not use Israel as a forward base. Less than a 100 US soldiers are stationed in Israel, and all of them are located in the Negav working with Israeli scientists on anti-missile technology, etc.
Israel is the only dependable ally in the Middle East. It's presense has allowed the USA to protect the Arab states without actually invading them. Israel protected Jordan from Syria in the 1970s, aided Yemen rebels during the invasion in 1962, provided captured Soviet weapons that provided decisive in are wars against Iraq and Vietnam.
From what I understand Israel provided over 60 billion in Soviet technology, while the USA provided less than 18 billion in loans/grants.
Do you know what would happen if Israel no longer felt secure? You want to look at the history of the Arab-Israeli conflict prior to 1973?
Lemon law
Lifer
Well Sammy, as long as you want to call Israeli land theft and religious discrimination as enlightened values, you may now be in a position of defending what others are finding indefensible in a modern world.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100422/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians
Seems ole Netanyuhu is not going to stop settling in East Jerusalem, and now the fats is really in the fire.
Now what will Obama and the world do?
1. Give up on the whole the whole matter, and say we tried, but the parties are just too unreasonable?
2. Or start increasing the pressure on Israel until they stop, all the way up to a world wide economic embargo if need be?
I am not the decider here, but the fats now in the fire, and I expect we shall see soon if its going to be some variant of #1 or #2.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100422/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians
Seems ole Netanyuhu is not going to stop settling in East Jerusalem, and now the fats is really in the fire.
Now what will Obama and the world do?
1. Give up on the whole the whole matter, and say we tried, but the parties are just too unreasonable?
2. Or start increasing the pressure on Israel until they stop, all the way up to a world wide economic embargo if need be?
I am not the decider here, but the fats now in the fire, and I expect we shall see soon if its going to be some variant of #1 or #2.
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SamurAchzar
Platinum Member
I find it amusing you'd place sanctions on Israel for building in Jerusalem, yet you'd object sanctions on Iran for acquiring nukes.
Lemon law
Lifer
I find it amusing that Sammy Sez, "I find it amusing you'd place sanctions on Israel for building in Jerusalem, yet you'd object sanctions on Iran for acquiring nukes."
Wrong Sammy, I have put forth my reasoning and you have put forth your reasoning, but neither of us will be the deciders or have much impact on those decisions.
Other far more important world leaders will make those decisions, now that Netanyuhu has said nyet to freezing more settlements. As for Iranian sanction, it looks like China and not me has said Nyet to that idea.
If Obama does not use his UN security council veto to block possible world wide economic embargo against Israel, I can't think of a single other nation that would block such sanctions. Because Israel has said NO NO NO to any mid-east peace process and in so doing has insulted, not just the USA, but the whole world as well.
Wrong Sammy, I have put forth my reasoning and you have put forth your reasoning, but neither of us will be the deciders or have much impact on those decisions.
Other far more important world leaders will make those decisions, now that Netanyuhu has said nyet to freezing more settlements. As for Iranian sanction, it looks like China and not me has said Nyet to that idea.
If Obama does not use his UN security council veto to block possible world wide economic embargo against Israel, I can't think of a single other nation that would block such sanctions. Because Israel has said NO NO NO to any mid-east peace process and in so doing has insulted, not just the USA, but the whole world as well.
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SamurAchzar
Platinum Member
None of the major EU countries would support an embargo on Israel, and neither would China (and probably Russia). There are pro-Israeli governments in most of EU today.
Obama will never, ever support economic sanctions against Israel, especially during such sensitive times with Iran. I want to see the Fox headlines the day after Obama allows such a thing, while doing nothing about Iran.
With the overwhelming majority of the Congress supporting Israel, it's a political suicide to do so.
Sorry LL, I know you wish it was different but US has taken a side here, and even almighty BHO won't change that.
If anything, it is more likely US would tie any possible attack on Iran to the process with the Palestinians. Much more effective and discreet way of applying pressure on Israel than going on a rampage which the American public doesn't support.
heyheybooboo
Diamond Member
Dream on. Ain't no possible linkage, there.
News Flash: A substantial majority of Americans do not think it is the responsibility of the United States to resolve the conflict between Israel and other countries in the Middle East.
And I suspect that majority will be growing in spite of the Israeli damage control over the Biden incident. Netanyahoo better watch his shit. Spit in the face of the US again and no amount of back-tracking contrition will save his ass in the eyes of American public opinion.
And you wonder why people make fun of you and your Spam Cabal?
--
Brainonska511
Lifer
The USS Liberty did not sink. Israel was not really an ally of the US at the time. And at the time, supposedly the USS Andrew Jackson was in the area for the following: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_Incident
As for the Cold War - jeez - it was over 20 years ago. This notion that a country's alignment cannot change is ridiculous. If we went by your standard, we shouldn't be allies with Germany because the Nazis were in power 75 years ago.
Lemon law
Lifer
The other thing to note, if Obama has a leadership role in finally solving the Israeli Palestinian conflict with a peaceful solution, it would greatly strengthen his ability to control any possible Iranian nuclear weapons programs, and at the same time weaken Iranian hard liners and aid Iranian moderates.
And funny how South Africa thought their apartheid paradise would never end, until the world got serious about a world wide economic embargo. The total end did not take long thereafter.
And funny how South Africa thought their apartheid paradise would never end, until the world got serious about a world wide economic embargo. The total end did not take long thereafter.
Noobtastic
Banned
What do you expect?
Lemon Law compares Israel to Nazi Germany.
Can't expect much out of him.
Link?
Vast majority of Americans support Israel and believe Israel is an ally.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/126155/support-israel-near-record-high.aspx
Support for the Palestinians or Israels enemies is close to zero in comparison. Those who don't express support for Israel tend to fall under the "indifferent" category.
As far as America's responsibility goes, its presence in the Middle East has never been to resolve conflict, but protect oil.
DUH.
You think America gives a shit about peace?
Feel free to respond to my original post in its entirety. I know facts and reason aren't considered a priority for raging leftists.
Lemon law
Lifer
IHV, there is no point in disputing what you linked, "Vast majority of Americans support Israel and believe Israel is an ally.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/126155/su...cord-high.aspx "
And it taken long and very hard work by a largely pro-Israeli press to build up that
image over a period of many years, and for that matter there is almost no Pro-Palestinian press in the USA. And for that matter, in terms of public opinion, US public opinion is more pro-Israeli than anywhere else on earth.
But what you may be ignoring is something I might label as the Pee Wee Herman effect,
as he went from parental favorite to pervert overnight when the facts came out. Or we could talk about Joe McCarthy, the terror of 1950's Washington whose Red Hunts intimidated Eisenhower so much he would not defend his former mentor George Marshall. Lets just say that McCarthy finally overplayed his hand, and almost overnight his support vanished. Or I could point out there was a pretty substantial Pro Nazi press and image in America up until the day Pearl Harbor was bombed, and we know it totally crashed to zero.
In other words, facts and making those unpleasant truth facts very public could make American public opinion turn and turn very quickly against the present Israeli leadership.
Neither of us can predict the future but we can see what happened in the past to those who relied only on a past favorable image.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/126155/su...cord-high.aspx "
And it taken long and very hard work by a largely pro-Israeli press to build up that
image over a period of many years, and for that matter there is almost no Pro-Palestinian press in the USA. And for that matter, in terms of public opinion, US public opinion is more pro-Israeli than anywhere else on earth.
But what you may be ignoring is something I might label as the Pee Wee Herman effect,
as he went from parental favorite to pervert overnight when the facts came out. Or we could talk about Joe McCarthy, the terror of 1950's Washington whose Red Hunts intimidated Eisenhower so much he would not defend his former mentor George Marshall. Lets just say that McCarthy finally overplayed his hand, and almost overnight his support vanished. Or I could point out there was a pretty substantial Pro Nazi press and image in America up until the day Pearl Harbor was bombed, and we know it totally crashed to zero.
In other words, facts and making those unpleasant truth facts very public could make American public opinion turn and turn very quickly against the present Israeli leadership.
Neither of us can predict the future but we can see what happened in the past to those who relied only on a past favorable image.
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Noobtastic
Banned
Do you ever stop?
I was responding to this:
This is patently false. Statistics show support for Israel is more or less stable irrelevant of the Palestinians.
Largely pro-Israeli press? HAVE YOU LOOKED AT THE MEDIA? The mainstream media far from pro-Israel.
the entire liberal left - NYT, AP, BBC, CNN - all certifiably anti-Israel.
it is truly amazing so many Americans support Israel in spite of the bad press and public image.
Oh ANOTHER analogy to Hitler and Nazi Germany?
These are the smear tactics wielded by Arabist and Islamic trolls. Trivilizing the holocaust and comparing Israel (LOL!) to Nazi Germany - a country responsible for murdering 6 million Jews.
You are a fucking bigot and holocaust denier Lemon Law.
Lemon law
Lifer
Gotta love ole IHV who says, "You are a fucking bigot and holocaust denier Lemon Law.
(1) Lets see, I have never denied the Holocaust, and have always said it was wrong then.
Where does your foam at the mouth attack come from.
(2) Just because I do not 100% support Israeli thievery and bigotry against Palestinians, also a Semitic people, that too makes me a bigot for advocating equal rights for all.
(3) I am giving you reasoned responses of what may influence the thinking of the rest of the world leaders and US public opinion, while admitting my version may not occur, but just because what I say might happen conflicts with your fantasy, you can't admit that time will tell before foaming at the mouth and making totally logically invalid and unwarranted personal attacks against me.
(1) Lets see, I have never denied the Holocaust, and have always said it was wrong then.
Where does your foam at the mouth attack come from.
(2) Just because I do not 100% support Israeli thievery and bigotry against Palestinians, also a Semitic people, that too makes me a bigot for advocating equal rights for all.
(3) I am giving you reasoned responses of what may influence the thinking of the rest of the world leaders and US public opinion, while admitting my version may not occur, but just because what I say might happen conflicts with your fantasy, you can't admit that time will tell before foaming at the mouth and making totally logically invalid and unwarranted personal attacks against me.
xj0hnx
Diamond Member
63% is a vast majority? I guess it is subjective, but I wouldn't call 63% a vast majority. Now, 85% of republicans support Israel, I'd call 85% a vast majority.
SamurAchzar
Platinum Member
Tell me Lemon Law, how is the headline from the Gallup poll, "Support for Israel in U.S. at 63%, Near Record High", work out with your predictions about US dropping the support for Israel?
Once again I'll assert that Obama does not represent the US public, at least not on this matter. He's only operating out of the personal interests of him and his gang.
Once again I'll assert that Obama does not represent the US public, at least not on this matter. He's only operating out of the personal interests of him and his gang.
Noobtastic
Banned
The vast majority support or are indifferent to Israel.
it's important to note that since 1967, support for israel in United States has increased exponentially, peaking during the Gulf War.
Support for Israel outnumbers support/sympathy for Arabs/Palestinians by a factor of 3.
Meanwhile, support for Israel's enemies and the Arab "allies" has decreased each year. Support for Arab view is below 10% in 2010.
Other polls show the majority of Americans believe USA should stay out of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (i.e, no foreign involvement - peace process, etc), but when picking a side Americans choose Israel over the Palestinians.
Arab states have spent billions buying out British universities and using their oil to pressure American politicians and media...but it hasn't changed much.
Trivializing the holocaust and comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is a subtle form of holocaust denial.
You are a bigot Lemon Law.
Lemon law
Lifer
To IHV, who again foams at the mouth by saying, "You are a bigot Lemon Law. "
All I can say to you IHV, is that if you think you will intimidate me with your personal attacks, you are totally mistaken. Nor will I respond in kind to your name calling.
Not only do I have thick skin, I have a life long track record of taking positions that are then in the minority. But funny thing, IHV, I usually almost always prove to be correct in the end. I do not flatter myself into thinking my lone position caused much of anything, but still the larger nation and national leadership came to greatly resemble my original position after they beat their heads against the wall without results trying the popular position.
After all, time will tell which of us are reading the tea leaves correctly.
All I can say to you IHV, is that if you think you will intimidate me with your personal attacks, you are totally mistaken. Nor will I respond in kind to your name calling.
Not only do I have thick skin, I have a life long track record of taking positions that are then in the minority. But funny thing, IHV, I usually almost always prove to be correct in the end. I do not flatter myself into thinking my lone position caused much of anything, but still the larger nation and national leadership came to greatly resemble my original position after they beat their heads against the wall without results trying the popular position.
After all, time will tell which of us are reading the tea leaves correctly.
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Hayabusa Rider
Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Noobtastic
Banned
holocaust denier.
Lemon law
Lifer
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Point granted Hayabusa, Obama may not be the sole decider in the USA, bur still, in a US congress v. Presidential pissing contest, the Prez has all of the initial aces and most of the long term aces. But when we look at the international situation, our allies and the rest of the world pay far more attention to the US Prez in setting their policy.
Even if its not certain what Obama will do, Israel is still in a precarious situation in terms of three possible overplaying their hand big gambles. (1) If Obama signals his intolerance of Present Israeli settlement policies, Obama can then sit back and let the rest of the world take the lead on telling Israeli, that their continual settlement settlement policy on disputed lands has got to stop, p period, or economic sanctions against Israel will follow. (2) Obama has still has 2.7+ years left in office, Israel can gamble they can outlast Obama, but what happens if the next Prez, Obama or whomever follows the Obama lead. (3) That Israeli can maintain their positive press in the USA in future, regardless of how they act as the world wide press turns on Israel.
At the end of the day, its still going to be another of those time will tell questions.
Hayabusa Rider
Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
The greatest factor isn't which branch holds the greatest Constitutional power so much as what the Party wants. Although it's not in the founding document partisan politics is the greatest decider in policy. That's not just the Dems, so no I'm not knocking them specifically. The Reps do it too.
My money is that what happens will be that which the Party feels gives the greatest advantage come election time.
fallout man
Golden Member
Your bit is getting stale.
Noobtastic
Banned
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