http://www.independent.co.uk/n...-authority-801776.html
Stalled assault on Basra exposes the Iraqi government's shaky authority
By Patrick Cockburn
Friday, 28 March 2008
The Iraqi army's offensive against the Shia militia of the radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr in Basra is failing to make significant headway despite a pledge by the Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki to fight "to the end".
Instead of being a show of strength, the government's stalled assault is demonstrating its shaky authority over much of Baghdad and southern Iraq. As the situation spins out of Mr Maliki's control, saboteurs blew up one of the two main oil export pipelines near Basra, cutting by a third crude exports from the oilfields around the city. The international price of oil jumped immediately by $1 a barrel before falling back.
In Baghdad, tens of thousands of supporters of Mr Sadr, whose base of support is the Shia poor, marched through the streets shouting slogans demanding that Mr Maliki's government be overthrown. "We demand the downfall of the Maliki government," said one of the marchers, Hussein Abu Ali. "It does not represent the people. It represents Bush and Cheney."
The main bastion of the Sadrist movement is impoverished Sadr City, which has a population of two million and is almost a twin city to Baghdad. The densely packed slum has been sealed off by US troops. "We are trapped in our homes with no water or electricity since yesterday," said a resident called Mohammed. "We can't bathe our children or wash our clothes."
The streets are controlled by Mehdi Army fighters, many of whom say they expect an all-out American attack, though this seems unlikely since the US says that an attack on the Shia militias is a wholly Iraqi affair.
In Basra, Iraqi forces have cordoned off seven districts but appear stalled in their effort to dislodge the Mehdi Army fighters. Masked gunmen in some cases have captured or seized abandoned Iraqi army vehicles and painted pro-Sadrist slogans on their armour.
A co-ordinated mortar bombardment struck the main police base in the city beside the Shatt al-Arab waterway and there was heavy shooting in the main commercial street of Iraq's southern capital. An Interior Ministry source said that 51 people had been killed and more than 200 wounded in three days of fighting in Basra. There was an attempt to assassinate Basra's police chief in which three of his bodyguards were killed by a bomb.
Mr Maliki's surprise offensive against the Mehdi Army is likely to have repercussions far beyond Iraq. The Americans must have agreed to the attack though they had previously praised the six-month ceasefire declared by Mr Sadr on 29 August and renewed in February as being one of the main reasons why violence had fallen in Iraq. Although Mr Sadr has said the truce is continuing it is ceasing to have much meaning.
President George Bush praised Mr Maliki yesterday saying he faces a "tough battle against militia fighters and criminals". He said that the Iraqi Prime Minister had taken a bold decision "in going after the illegal groups in Basra".
But the rapid increase in violence may puncture optimism in the US over the "success" of the surge in leading to a turning point in the five-year-long war.
The Green Zone, the heavily fortified centre of American power in Iraq, was wreathed in smoke yesterday as it was struck by rockets and mortars fired from Shia neighbourhoods. In a further blow to the belief that the surge has restored law and order, one of the two Iraqi spokesmen for the Baghdad security plan, which is at the heart of the surge strategy, was kidnapped and three of his bodyguards killed before his house was set on fire. The victim was Tahseen Sheikhly, a Sunni who often appeared with American officials to proclaim the success of the surge.
Clashes are now taking place across Iraq and most of the Shia districts in Iraq. In the middle of last year a Mehdi Army commander said that his militia controlled 80 per cent of Shia Baghdad and 50 per cent of the capital as a whole. This is probably only a slight exaggeration. There has also been heavy fighting in Kut on the Tigris, where 44 have been killed and 75 wounded, and in Hilla on the Euphrates where 60 people died. In past months the Sadrists have been locked in a struggle for Diwaniya, also on the Euphrates south of Baghdad, where they have been fighting police units controlled by Badr, the militia of the other great Shia party, the Islamic Supreme Council of Iraq (ISCI).
When he first came to power, Mr Maliki balanced between ISCI and the Sadrists but has steadily become closer to the first party and has shown growing hostility to Mr Sadr. The last great battle between the Sadrists and the Iraqi government backed by the Americans was in Najaf in 2004 and was ended by the intervention of Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani who wanted the Sadrists humbled but not crushed. He also did not want to see the Shia community divided into warring factions. It is possible that the Grand Ayatollah may seek to mediate again but Mr Maliki may find it difficult to compromise after his claim that he will win control of Basra.
The government has about 15,000 soldiers and the same number of police in Basra but this is not a great number in a city of two million. The police are closely linked to the militias and are unlikely to prove a resolute ally against the Mehdi Army.
Stalled assault on Basra exposes the Iraqi government's shaky authority
By Patrick Cockburn
Friday, 28 March 2008
The Iraqi army's offensive against the Shia militia of the radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr in Basra is failing to make significant headway despite a pledge by the Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki to fight "to the end".
Instead of being a show of strength, the government's stalled assault is demonstrating its shaky authority over much of Baghdad and southern Iraq. As the situation spins out of Mr Maliki's control, saboteurs blew up one of the two main oil export pipelines near Basra, cutting by a third crude exports from the oilfields around the city. The international price of oil jumped immediately by $1 a barrel before falling back.
In Baghdad, tens of thousands of supporters of Mr Sadr, whose base of support is the Shia poor, marched through the streets shouting slogans demanding that Mr Maliki's government be overthrown. "We demand the downfall of the Maliki government," said one of the marchers, Hussein Abu Ali. "It does not represent the people. It represents Bush and Cheney."
The main bastion of the Sadrist movement is impoverished Sadr City, which has a population of two million and is almost a twin city to Baghdad. The densely packed slum has been sealed off by US troops. "We are trapped in our homes with no water or electricity since yesterday," said a resident called Mohammed. "We can't bathe our children or wash our clothes."
The streets are controlled by Mehdi Army fighters, many of whom say they expect an all-out American attack, though this seems unlikely since the US says that an attack on the Shia militias is a wholly Iraqi affair.
In Basra, Iraqi forces have cordoned off seven districts but appear stalled in their effort to dislodge the Mehdi Army fighters. Masked gunmen in some cases have captured or seized abandoned Iraqi army vehicles and painted pro-Sadrist slogans on their armour.
A co-ordinated mortar bombardment struck the main police base in the city beside the Shatt al-Arab waterway and there was heavy shooting in the main commercial street of Iraq's southern capital. An Interior Ministry source said that 51 people had been killed and more than 200 wounded in three days of fighting in Basra. There was an attempt to assassinate Basra's police chief in which three of his bodyguards were killed by a bomb.
Mr Maliki's surprise offensive against the Mehdi Army is likely to have repercussions far beyond Iraq. The Americans must have agreed to the attack though they had previously praised the six-month ceasefire declared by Mr Sadr on 29 August and renewed in February as being one of the main reasons why violence had fallen in Iraq. Although Mr Sadr has said the truce is continuing it is ceasing to have much meaning.
President George Bush praised Mr Maliki yesterday saying he faces a "tough battle against militia fighters and criminals". He said that the Iraqi Prime Minister had taken a bold decision "in going after the illegal groups in Basra".
But the rapid increase in violence may puncture optimism in the US over the "success" of the surge in leading to a turning point in the five-year-long war.
The Green Zone, the heavily fortified centre of American power in Iraq, was wreathed in smoke yesterday as it was struck by rockets and mortars fired from Shia neighbourhoods. In a further blow to the belief that the surge has restored law and order, one of the two Iraqi spokesmen for the Baghdad security plan, which is at the heart of the surge strategy, was kidnapped and three of his bodyguards killed before his house was set on fire. The victim was Tahseen Sheikhly, a Sunni who often appeared with American officials to proclaim the success of the surge.
Clashes are now taking place across Iraq and most of the Shia districts in Iraq. In the middle of last year a Mehdi Army commander said that his militia controlled 80 per cent of Shia Baghdad and 50 per cent of the capital as a whole. This is probably only a slight exaggeration. There has also been heavy fighting in Kut on the Tigris, where 44 have been killed and 75 wounded, and in Hilla on the Euphrates where 60 people died. In past months the Sadrists have been locked in a struggle for Diwaniya, also on the Euphrates south of Baghdad, where they have been fighting police units controlled by Badr, the militia of the other great Shia party, the Islamic Supreme Council of Iraq (ISCI).
When he first came to power, Mr Maliki balanced between ISCI and the Sadrists but has steadily become closer to the first party and has shown growing hostility to Mr Sadr. The last great battle between the Sadrists and the Iraqi government backed by the Americans was in Najaf in 2004 and was ended by the intervention of Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani who wanted the Sadrists humbled but not crushed. He also did not want to see the Shia community divided into warring factions. It is possible that the Grand Ayatollah may seek to mediate again but Mr Maliki may find it difficult to compromise after his claim that he will win control of Basra.
The government has about 15,000 soldiers and the same number of police in Basra but this is not a great number in a city of two million. The police are closely linked to the militias and are unlikely to prove a resolute ally against the Mehdi Army.
datalink7
Lifer
- Jan 23, 2001
- 16,765
- 6
- 81
Well, it was true when we first arrived in sector they had sub standard stuff. But for 6 months or so they've had the same basic equipment as us (obviously we have more assets such as Air and Armor, as well as stuff classified Secret and Top Secret). At least in my sector. Can't comment on the whole of Iraq.
trenchfoot
Lifer
- Aug 5, 2000
- 15,838
- 8,430
- 136
giving the maliki government good equipment to fight with is one thing. however, just as it was in vietnam, what you can't give a puppet government and the people it leads is the motivation and core belief that comes with fighting for the very existence of a way of life that goes back a long ways. that's something the viet cong had to fight for that the puppet regime in south vietnam didn't. the US was not giving the south vietnamese government a system of government that mirrored ours. it was giving the south vietnamese government the license to operate the same way alot of small third world countries run by dictators did.
we gave the south vietnamese troops everything they needed equipment-wise to beat the north vietnamese and the viet cong. but what we couldn't give them was the fighting spirit and conviction of cause that comes with historically-driven national pride and the will to die for it.
maliki, being in the same situation as pres. nguyen van thieu was in in the vietnam war, is faced with the same problems.
edit - spl
we gave the south vietnamese troops everything they needed equipment-wise to beat the north vietnamese and the viet cong. but what we couldn't give them was the fighting spirit and conviction of cause that comes with historically-driven national pride and the will to die for it.
maliki, being in the same situation as pres. nguyen van thieu was in in the vietnam war, is faced with the same problems.
edit - spl
TastesLikeChicken
Lifer
- Sep 12, 2004
- 16,852
- 59
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"Puppet government?"
:roll:
Do people still use that ridiculous hyperbole to describe a government that the Iraqis themselves elected?
The Sadrists can make all the noise they want and get glowing reviews from their usefull idiots in the media as well. They're still going to get their butts handed to them though because they don't have the force capabilities to withstand any prolonged onslaught.
:roll:
Do people still use that ridiculous hyperbole to describe a government that the Iraqis themselves elected?
The Sadrists can make all the noise they want and get glowing reviews from their usefull idiots in the media as well. They're still going to get their butts handed to them though because they don't have the force capabilities to withstand any prolonged onslaught.
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
- 3
- 0
As per usual, THC only deludes himself with---They're still going to get their butts handed to them though because they don't have the force capabilities to withstand any prolonged onslaught.
In an insurgency, thats always the the occupying power's strategy. And exactly what the insurgency avoids. Where the occupation is strong, the insurgency hides by fading into the civilian background, as soon as the occupying force leaves itself weak in a given area, back they come they come to resume activity.
As Shinseki said, we need at least 500,000 troops to even come close to being strong everywhere.
In a war, overwhelming military force is hard to stop, in an occupation, the battle shifts to winning the hearts and minds of the people. And a military does not win that battle by killing the surrounding civilians with raw military might. And as the Iraqi army battles in Basra, six other cities and Baghdad also explode.
GWB has called on Ossama Bin Laden to surrender himself. Has it worked?
Now Malki is called on the insurgents to surrender their arms in three days. And that was three days ago. Has that worked? Where is the implied surrender your arms or else? Or what, he will level Basra so that a brick will not be left standing on a brick? Thats sure the way to win the civilian hearts and minds.
But in the mind of a brute, brute force is always the way to go. And if you read your world history, often the fastest way to fail in any occupation. It did not work with the American revolution, George Washington did not try to beat the British where they were strong, when you don't have the overwhelming military force, other strategies are employed. It did not work for Israel in Lebanon, Hezbollah tripled its popular support.
But once again, TLC points out we have the bestest guns and overwhelming military force in Iraq. And by that measure we should have won five years ago. And here we are today, arguably further from victory than we were five years ago.
In an insurgency, thats always the the occupying power's strategy. And exactly what the insurgency avoids. Where the occupation is strong, the insurgency hides by fading into the civilian background, as soon as the occupying force leaves itself weak in a given area, back they come they come to resume activity.
As Shinseki said, we need at least 500,000 troops to even come close to being strong everywhere.
In a war, overwhelming military force is hard to stop, in an occupation, the battle shifts to winning the hearts and minds of the people. And a military does not win that battle by killing the surrounding civilians with raw military might. And as the Iraqi army battles in Basra, six other cities and Baghdad also explode.
GWB has called on Ossama Bin Laden to surrender himself. Has it worked?
Now Malki is called on the insurgents to surrender their arms in three days. And that was three days ago. Has that worked? Where is the implied surrender your arms or else? Or what, he will level Basra so that a brick will not be left standing on a brick? Thats sure the way to win the civilian hearts and minds.
But in the mind of a brute, brute force is always the way to go. And if you read your world history, often the fastest way to fail in any occupation. It did not work with the American revolution, George Washington did not try to beat the British where they were strong, when you don't have the overwhelming military force, other strategies are employed. It did not work for Israel in Lebanon, Hezbollah tripled its popular support.
But once again, TLC points out we have the bestest guns and overwhelming military force in Iraq. And by that measure we should have won five years ago. And here we are today, arguably further from victory than we were five years ago.
Iraqi police are defecting, fighting each other as battle rages in Basra
Police refuse to support Iraqi PM's attacks on Mehdi Army
By Patrick Cockburn
Saturday, 29 March 2008
US and British forces are increasingly playing a supporting role in the Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki's stalled offensive against the Mehdi Army militia. American aircraft launched air strikes in Basra yesterday and fought militiamen on the streets in Baghdad while British advisers have also been assisting Iraqi troops in Basra.
Mr Maliki retreated from his demand that militiamen hand over their weapons by yesterday and extended the deadline to 8 April. This is a tacit admission that the Iraqi army and police have failed to oust the Mehdi Army from any of its strongholds in the capital and in southern Iraq. The Iraqi army has either met stubborn resistance from Mehdi Army fighters or soldiers and police have refused to fight or changed sides. "We did not expect the fight to be this intense," said the officer from a 300-strong commando unit that has been pinned down in the Tamimiyah district in Basra, where the supporters of Muqtada al-Sadr, the leader of the Mehdi Army, have strong support.
The officer said four of his men were killed and 15 wounded in the fighting. "Some of the men told me that they did not want to go back to the fight until they have better support and more protection," he added. The Interior Ministry threatened that the men would be court-martialled for refusing to fight. Government troops arriving in Basra complain that they are being fired on by local police loyal to Mr Sadr. Members of one police unit had fist fights with their officers after they refused to join the battle.
The failure of Mr Maliki to make good his threat so far to eliminate the Mehdi Army and growing signs of dissent in army units is damaging his authority, "It is possible that Muqtada and the Mehdi Army will emerge from this crisis stronger than they were before," warned one Iraqi politician who did not want his name published.
Fears that Mr Maliki's surprise assault on the Mehdi Army is faltering without any real gains on the ground probably explains why US aircraft are dropping bombs in Basra and US armoured vehicles made an incursion into Sadr City in Baghdad. The explosion of violence over the past four days is making a mockery of George Bush's claim that America had turned the corner in Iraq.
The crisis has also presented the British Government with a dilemma. If the 4,100 British troops at the airport remain spectators to the battles in the city, critics will ask what they are doing there. But if they intervene in what is essentially a battle between two Shia factions they will be dragged back into the struggle for Basra in which nobody is likely to emerge the winner.
Mystery surrounds Mr Maliki's motive in launching an assault on the Mehdi Army after Mr Sadr renewed his six-month ceasefire last month. A likely explanation is that Mr Maliki, who has little support outside the holy city of Kerbala, was under pressure from the Islamic Supreme Council of Iraq (ISCI), his main ally, to attack the Sadrists now. The Sadrists were expected to do well against ISCI in provincial elections which are to be held in October under an agreement brokered by the US Vice-President Dick Cheney during his visit to Baghdad earlier in the month.
ISCI wanted to crush the Sadrists before the poll and this would be easier to do before the US reduces the numbers of its troops in Iraq. But, unless Mr Maliki's attack picks up steam over the next week, he will have done nothing except damage his own standing. Demonstrators have already been denouncing him as an American puppet and demanding that he go.
A measure of the anarchy in Iraq is that it is unclear who controls large swaths of the country. By one report the Mehdi Army has taken over the centre of the city of Nassariya. The Green Zone in Baghdad, the headquarters of the Iraqi government and of US political influence, is being mortared every day. One mortar round killed two guards outside the Vice-President's office in the zone. Nobody knows on whose side sections of the security services belong. The Iraqi spokesman for "the surge", which Mr Bush has lauded as successful, was kidnapped by police commandos, who shot dead his guards before abducting him. A curfew was in force in the capital yesterday.
Police refuse to support Iraqi PM's attacks on Mehdi Army
By Patrick Cockburn
Saturday, 29 March 2008
US and British forces are increasingly playing a supporting role in the Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki's stalled offensive against the Mehdi Army militia. American aircraft launched air strikes in Basra yesterday and fought militiamen on the streets in Baghdad while British advisers have also been assisting Iraqi troops in Basra.
Mr Maliki retreated from his demand that militiamen hand over their weapons by yesterday and extended the deadline to 8 April. This is a tacit admission that the Iraqi army and police have failed to oust the Mehdi Army from any of its strongholds in the capital and in southern Iraq. The Iraqi army has either met stubborn resistance from Mehdi Army fighters or soldiers and police have refused to fight or changed sides. "We did not expect the fight to be this intense," said the officer from a 300-strong commando unit that has been pinned down in the Tamimiyah district in Basra, where the supporters of Muqtada al-Sadr, the leader of the Mehdi Army, have strong support.
The officer said four of his men were killed and 15 wounded in the fighting. "Some of the men told me that they did not want to go back to the fight until they have better support and more protection," he added. The Interior Ministry threatened that the men would be court-martialled for refusing to fight. Government troops arriving in Basra complain that they are being fired on by local police loyal to Mr Sadr. Members of one police unit had fist fights with their officers after they refused to join the battle.
The failure of Mr Maliki to make good his threat so far to eliminate the Mehdi Army and growing signs of dissent in army units is damaging his authority, "It is possible that Muqtada and the Mehdi Army will emerge from this crisis stronger than they were before," warned one Iraqi politician who did not want his name published.
Fears that Mr Maliki's surprise assault on the Mehdi Army is faltering without any real gains on the ground probably explains why US aircraft are dropping bombs in Basra and US armoured vehicles made an incursion into Sadr City in Baghdad. The explosion of violence over the past four days is making a mockery of George Bush's claim that America had turned the corner in Iraq.
The crisis has also presented the British Government with a dilemma. If the 4,100 British troops at the airport remain spectators to the battles in the city, critics will ask what they are doing there. But if they intervene in what is essentially a battle between two Shia factions they will be dragged back into the struggle for Basra in which nobody is likely to emerge the winner.
Mystery surrounds Mr Maliki's motive in launching an assault on the Mehdi Army after Mr Sadr renewed his six-month ceasefire last month. A likely explanation is that Mr Maliki, who has little support outside the holy city of Kerbala, was under pressure from the Islamic Supreme Council of Iraq (ISCI), his main ally, to attack the Sadrists now. The Sadrists were expected to do well against ISCI in provincial elections which are to be held in October under an agreement brokered by the US Vice-President Dick Cheney during his visit to Baghdad earlier in the month.
ISCI wanted to crush the Sadrists before the poll and this would be easier to do before the US reduces the numbers of its troops in Iraq. But, unless Mr Maliki's attack picks up steam over the next week, he will have done nothing except damage his own standing. Demonstrators have already been denouncing him as an American puppet and demanding that he go.
A measure of the anarchy in Iraq is that it is unclear who controls large swaths of the country. By one report the Mehdi Army has taken over the centre of the city of Nassariya. The Green Zone in Baghdad, the headquarters of the Iraqi government and of US political influence, is being mortared every day. One mortar round killed two guards outside the Vice-President's office in the zone. Nobody knows on whose side sections of the security services belong. The Iraqi spokesman for "the surge", which Mr Bush has lauded as successful, was kidnapped by police commandos, who shot dead his guards before abducting him. A curfew was in force in the capital yesterday.
Some may have good equipment but are you saying that they are equal in training and ability to US forces because they may have some of the same equipment? I dearly hope you don't believe your little fallacy here. I could give you the same pen Hemingway used to write his novels but that will not put you in the same caliber as Hemingway automatically if ever just because you are using the same equipment.
TastesLikeChicken
Lifer
- Sep 12, 2004
- 16,852
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The "police" refuse to fight? lol.
This is the usual type of spin we get from some of the "news" outlets in situations like this. There have been, what, a few tens of Shi'ite policemen that refuse to join the fighting? Somehow that magically transforms into all policemen refusing to fight and a huge crisis that doesn't exist. Besides that, it was already known that some of Sadr's men had infiltrated the police. Good to see them bail and it's no secret to see these guys are Sadrs men or they wouldn't be wearing masks to hide their identity while turning in their weapons at Sadr's headquarters in Basra.
btw. Try to find and post some stories that don't come from an Iraqi insurgent enabling rag like the Independent as well. They are well known for their far left and anti-war spin.
This is the usual type of spin we get from some of the "news" outlets in situations like this. There have been, what, a few tens of Shi'ite policemen that refuse to join the fighting? Somehow that magically transforms into all policemen refusing to fight and a huge crisis that doesn't exist. Besides that, it was already known that some of Sadr's men had infiltrated the police. Good to see them bail and it's no secret to see these guys are Sadrs men or they wouldn't be wearing masks to hide their identity while turning in their weapons at Sadr's headquarters in Basra.
btw. Try to find and post some stories that don't come from an Iraqi insurgent enabling rag like the Independent as well. They are well known for their far left and anti-war spin.
TastesLikeChicken
Lifer
- Sep 12, 2004
- 16,852
- 59
- 86
You should really drop the crap about others being deluded. We've seen you in this forum get smacked down enough lately by spouting on issues concerning Iraq and Columbia that you prove to know next to nothing about.
No the problem was that the people had motivation and pride in Vietnam which is why they would of kept on fighting no matter what. What they did not have was the motivation and pride toward the puppet government of South Vietnam.
LoL - You've provided not one factual rebuttal but instead went on a childish rant about not liking the realities of the situation. Try posting something that is factual and not bias that says other wise. Even the AP article in Yahoo I read the other day has pretty much pointed out the same situation in Iraq as the Independent along with most on air news agencies.
Yes, because we all know that purple fingers and a vote reflects a true election. You know there are elections in Russia and China and a host of other nations too. :roll:
TastesLikeChicken
Lifer
- Sep 12, 2004
- 16,852
- 59
- 86
Too late for wiser heads. Sadr is involved. If he was wise at all he would have disbanded his militia and stopped trying to undermine the Democratically elected government long ago.
But that turd is only about expanding his own personal power base, riding the coat-tails of his dead father, and nothing more.
TastesLikeChicken
Lifer
- Sep 12, 2004
- 16,852
- 59
- 86
TastesLikeChicken
Lifer
- Sep 12, 2004
- 16,852
- 59
- 86
Oh yeah, that says it all. Just conflate the Iraqi elections with Russia and China and that proves their elections somehow weren't democratic and the will of the people.
:roll:
TastesLikeChicken
Lifer
- Sep 12, 2004
- 16,852
- 59
- 86
When you hold everyone to that same standard you might be making a fair suggestion. But you don't, so it's not.
Again where is you evidence to the contrary that negates all these accounts being relayed back by reporters on the scene in Basra. Please I am waiting.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/...9/iraq.main/index.html
How is CNN different from what I just posted above?
datalink7
Lifer
- Jan 23, 2001
- 16,765
- 6
- 81
What fallacy? GrGr said "they only give Malaki's troops light arms and second or third rate crap at that." I replied that they were using the same basic equipment, or near to it, that we were. I even stated they didn't have the support options that we did. And of course our training is better. I didn't speak to that at all.
What fallacy are you talking about?
Where is my fallacy?
I'm waiting.
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