Fermi's lead over Cypress shrinks w/ new drivers

[shangshang]

There should be a pinned topic in this forum discussing the difference between TEMPERATURE and HEAT!!

This forum begs for such a thread.

 

[v8envy]

Sadly, it is not a real concern as people who've never owned the cards make it out to be. It is pitiful indeed to see people complain about the temperature in every sarcastic manner possible yet have never owned the cards themselves to experience the "fact" it is a non-issue, even in multi-GPU configs with Fermi.

I really pity them

So now you're the spokesman for all pc enthusiasts? I have yet to see you cite sources, this seems to be very much a case of "us" being a case of you and any resident parasites. 1/2 =)

Yes, by definition anyone buying these cards places ergonomics a distant second to performance in benchmarks. So it not being a concern for owners is a tautology.

I have kids, and play after they go to bed. My machine can NOT howl, no matter how well it performs. I also have a smallish office where I closer the door to cut down on light pollution from the monitor. If there was no 58xx then yes, I'd still consider Fermi and water cooling since it's the best performer.

If, however, I am unlikely to notice a performance delta outside of a canned benchmark I'm not going to waste money on a 1200 watt psu, a water loop. And after all that sweat profusely while gaming. It's practical vs theoretical -- will an all out drag prepped trailer queen "mustang" built on a $75,000 budget consistently and repeatedbly perform better than a stock $50,000 2010 corvette in a canned quarter mile benchmark? Oh hell yes, by a country mile. Will the corvette be a subjectively better car in the real world? Oh hell yes.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Yep. I will also state this. The law of Thermodynamics does not change for HurleyBird just because he feels that it does.

A piece of equipment that uses a specific amount of power and produces a specific amount of heat will continue to do so regardless of the cooling solution used. The cooling setup is just a method of transfering heat from one place to another. Regardless of using water cooling or air cooling the amount of heat put into a room from a video card is CONSTANT. The rate is different but the amount is the same. All water cooling does over air cooling is transfer more heat away from the video card chip to the ambient environment faster than an air cooling solution. This allows for the video card to run consistently cooler but NOT the room. Meaning if a given room is unbearably hot with a couple of GTX480s in sli on an air cooling solution then that means a water cooled solution would have the same affect ON THE ROOM. The heat (energy) doesn't magically disappear because a person wants it to. It has to go somewhere. All water cooling does is transfer more heat faster. This means a room would get hotter sooner.

Maybe I missed the post where he was 'being a troll'? He said that water will alleviate 'some of the unpleasantness' of running 480's in SLI. While it's true that those 480's are still putting out just as much heat, I'm sure water is a much quieter method of cooling that 2x stock 480 fans. That would be 'some of the unplesantness', wouldn't it? Agan, maybe I missed a different post or something, though.

 

[Compddd]

I run dual monitors and enjoy a silent computer, so I force the fan on my 5870 to 20% so I can achieve silent operation while in desktop mode, also I live in San Diego, so I'm barely making it temp wise during the spring and summers doing it this way, because of the dual monitors. I couldn't use a GTX 480 even if I wanted to

 

[Lonyo]

Sadly, it is not a real concern as people who've never owned the cards make it out to be. It is pitiful indeed to see people complain about the temperature in every sarcastic manner possible yet have never owned the cards themselves to experience the "fact" it is a non-issue, even in multi-GPU configs with Fermi.

I really pity them

According to Steam, a non-representative sample of gamers, 1.6% of users have multi-GPU configurations.
Now, this forum isn't Steam, but you can see that not a huge number have multi-GPU setups in the general populace as Steam represents it.

Also, what the hell does this have to do with the OP/this thread? Nothing.
This thread is basically about real world vs synthetic benchmarking, an issue which is not new, and people still seem to take issue with the idea that real world tests might be different from canned ones.

 

[HurleyBird]

It is official. You are a troll. You keep sarcastically talking about the 480 and heat. You've never had 480s in SLI. How could you possibly know anything about is being or not being unpleasant. Seriously, you need help.

I know that my single 5870 is usually very pleasant, but on a somewhat hot day playing a game that loads it up good (such as star trek online) it can be killer. Doesn't take too much imagination too see where 480SLI is going to be, especially since testing has been done to measure the power consumption and noise of such a product by countless review sites...

Yep. I will also state this. The law of Thermodynamics does not change for HurleyBird just because he feels that it does.

You are correct that I cannot alter Thermodynamics, but incorrect that better cooling will not lower heat output. A chip running at 50C is a lot less leaky than a chip running at 93C, which means power consumption is actually significantly affected by cooling. With lower operating temperature it may be possible to also undervolt your cards for further power savings. I don't have the equipment to test, but I wouldn't be surprised if a GTX 480 running on good water with a slight undervolt drew as much as 100w less power. Besides helping with dissipation, water cooling outright solves the noise issue you would have running GTX 480 SLI, and bringing those temps down is going to increase the lifespan of the cards. And Spyder is right, there's a reason I worded my response the way I did Higher power consumption for the water cooling rig was mentioned somewhere as well, but that is offsetting the power consumption of all the would-be fans in the system.

 

[SlowSpyder]

I have to disagree with you on this point. If you have a video card running 80C for 10 hours on air cooling and another running 40C for 10 hours on water cooling, both running the same program, same load, in the same sized room, the ending ambients will not be the same, nor will they reach the same maximum. Saying the 40C watercooled card will heat the room to its maximum ambient sooner than the 80C aircooled card is incorrect. If it was correct, would I be correct saying a -140C card on liquid helium, dry ice, or liquid nitrogen running full load creates the same warmer ambients in a room as does an 80C card on air cooling and reaches that maximum sooner?? ... doesn't make any sense.

The difference is that, unless you live on Neptune, liquid nitrogen is likely going to be colder than the temperature of the room you are in.

Think of it like this, a GPU is going to put out x amount of heat energy (lets assume it's the same GPU running the same load, we'll oversimplify it and say it's putting out exactly the same amount of heat energy...) As that heat energy enters a room, the room will get warmer due to this increased heat energy (again oversimplifying, we'll assume this room is perfectly insulated and otherwise at a constant temp). It doesn't matter if that heat energy is being dumped to a metal heat sink and then to the room, or if it's being dumped to a liquid, and then to the room. Ultimately it's leaving the GPU and entering the room it's in. The temp of the GPU doesn't matter, the temp of the GPU is a function of it's heat output and the heatsink, ultimately it's still puttng out the same amount of heat.

You cannot compare this to using a below-ambient cooling method, like dry ice or liquid nitrogen. With something like liquid nitrogen the heat energy from the GPU is transferring to the very cold (relatively speaking compared to the room temp) LN and causing it to evaporate into the room. When it evaporates it might still be -100C.

You have to look at the total heat energy of the room. The total heat energy of the room plus the LN. And how much heat energy is introduced to the room.

Regarding heat vs. temp, think of this. The filament in a light bulb gets quite hot, around 3000C, but you wouldn't want to try and heat a room with that. The air that comes out of a vent in your house isn't very hot, but there is a lot of heat energy there compared to a lightbulb.

 

[HumblePie]

Maybe I missed the post where he was 'being a troll'? He said that water will alleviate 'some of the unpleasantness' of running 480's in SLI. While it's true that those 480's are still putting out just as much heat, I'm sure water is a much quieter method of cooling that 2x stock 480 fans. That would be 'some of the unplesantness', wouldn't it? Agan, maybe I missed a different post or something, though.

Ahh, I never called him a troll. That was luv2 that did that. I was just responding to a long string of comments people were making back and forth. Some of them right about heat, and others not. You are correct in the statement about unpleasantness in regards to acoustics. However, Hurley earlier posted about unpleasantness from heat. The post, while mentioning his name, wasn't only directly for his benefit.

Also hurley, undervolting has nothing to do with water cooling and heat transference. Any electronics "undervolted" would produce less heat as that is the nature of it. It is also true that electronics running hotter tend to draw a little more power since the heat causes some of the electricity to "leak" and generate more heat. However, it amount leaked this way is usually very little in terms of additional heat generated as long as the electronic is still typically within the tolerances of it's design. At least well made components do. Components like from really crappy power supplies for example just burst into flames but that's a different discussion.

Point being, a GPU running at the same voltage and 100% usage is going to raise ambient temps to the same unpleasant level within it's operating tolerance specs regardless of the cooling solution used to transfer heat away from the GPU to the surrounding environment.

 

[HurleyBird]

Ahh, I never called him a troll. That was luv2 that did that. I was just responding to a long string of comments people were making back and forth. Some of them right about heat, and others not. You are correct in the statement about unpleasantness in regards to acoustics. However, Hurley earlier posted about unpleasantness from heat. The post, while mentioning his name, wasn't only directly for his benefit.

I suggest you read my post above yours if you haven't already

 

[SlowSpyder]

Ahh, I never called him a troll. That was luv2 that did that. I was just responding to a long string of comments people were making back and forth. Some of them right about heat, and others not. You are correct in the statement about unpleasantness in regards to acoustics. However, Hurley earlier posted about unpleasantness from heat. The post, while mentioning his name, wasn't only directly for his benefit.

I took your post as agreeing with someone who did call him a troll... my apologies if I misunderstood.

 

[luv2increase]

According to Steam, a non-representative sample of gamers, 1.6% of users have multi-GPU configurations.
Now, this forum isn't Steam, but you can see that not a huge number have multi-GPU setups in the general populace as Steam represents it.

Another case of failed reading comprehension I'm afraid. Another individual trying to lump all gamers as being enthusiasts. Oh boy.

What are you going to say next? Are you going to tell us that every person who has Steam installed on their computer is an enthusiast

Tricks are for kids... lol


@Hurly

An imagination is not a substitute for hands-on experience.

 

[HumblePie]

I took your post as agreeing with someone who did call him a troll... my apologies if I misunderstood.

No worries, it was just at the point I took the quote, the last in a string of comments made by many in this thread about the issue. I'm used to boards that do a multi quote setup now so that threads that segregate into separate parts as easier to follow without having to load back through X amount of pages.

 

[Skurge]

Another case of failed reading comprehension I'm afraid. Another individual trying to lump all gamers as being enthusiasts. Oh boy.

What are you going to say next? Are you going to tell us that every person who has Steam installed on their computer is an enthusiast

Tricks are for kids... lol

So you are saying that you aren't an enthusiast If you don't have dual 480s or 5870s?
So I'm not an enthusiast even though I put 2yrs saving in my PC just cause I have a single 4870? So somebody who buys a 5850 and overclocks it to 1GHz core is not an enthusiast cause he only has one?

In other words an enthusiast is someone with a system comparable to yours?

Why don't you take your elitist attitude somewhere else.

Back on topic, Nobody plays time demos, if they can't represent real world gaming scenarios then they are useless.

 

[railven]

Just wondering if anyone paid attention or even acknowledged ViRGE's post a few back.
It was actually interesting and something I did not know.

In another thread you told posters not to deviate from the topic, but here you are praticipating in that.

This thread needs to be brought back to Synthetic Benches vs Game-Play Demos.



@Happy_Medium: Did you re-run your benches? I'm curious if you figured out what caused the inaccuracies in your posting.

 

[busydude]

Back on topic, Nobody plays time demos, if they can't represent real world gaming scenarios the they are useless.

I completely agree, but I have to mention that DiRT 2 has the best benchmark tool I have seen. IMO it represents a true gaming scenario.

 

[Skurge]

In another thread you told posters not to deviate from the topic, but here you are praticipating in that.

This thread needs to be brought back to Synthetic Benches vs Game-Play Demos.

Yeah, true that. I believe some people were banned for that, but anyway.

 

[lifeblood]

Just wondering if anyone paid attention or even acknowledged ViRGE's post a few back.
It was actually interesting and something I did not know.

Yes, I did read it and it was interesting. I knew that lowering the voltage would reduce leakage, but not temperatutre. Well, learn something new everyday. Thats one reason why I read these forums.

Having said that, I have to wonder how much leakage is reduced per 10 degree C. I can't imagine it's much, but I could be wrong.

 

[Skurge]

I completely agree, but I have to mention that DiRT 2 has the best benchmark tool I have seen. IMO it represents a true gaming scenario.

Yeah, its not just a fly through of the map and the positions and lines the cars take very.

 

[Lonyo]

Another case of failed reading comprehension I'm afraid. Another individual trying to lump all gamers as being enthusiasts. Oh boy.

What are you going to say next? Are you going to tell us that every person who has Steam installed on their computer is an enthusiast

Tricks are for kids... lol


@Hurly

An imagination is not a substitute for hands-on experience.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2080076

Here, no tricks. I hope the poll options are suitable for you?

 

[Keysplayr]

In another thread you told posters not to deviate from the topic, but here you are praticipating in that.

This thread needs to be brought back to Synthetic Benches vs Game-Play Demos.



@Happy_Medium: Did you re-run your benches? I'm curious if you figured out what caused the inaccuracies in your posting.

Yeah, you're right. Sorry about that. I even lost track of what the thread was about.
As for Happy Medium,
I think the inaccuracies was the point he was trying to make?

 

[rgallant]

yea that poll said it all [all 13 ]
-sli = 0
-crossfire = 0
-so they never existed ,that's good to know. maybe it would have been better to take the poll on a laptop site.

 

[GaiaHunter]

Yeah, you're right. Sorry about that. I even lost track of what the thread was about.
As for Happy Medium,
I think the inaccuracies was the point he was trying to make?

The results he presented seem to have mathematical errors and so are invalid - as in the raw data disagrees with the final result.

And that is assuming no foul play.

Or are you saying that happy medium point is that FRAPS sucks at maths?

 

[luv2increase]

So you are saying that you aren't an enthusiast If you don't have dual 480s or 5870s?

Absolutely not. I'm saying that if you have dual 480s or 5870s that you "are" an enthusiast.

 

[v8envy]

I disagree. I know several Alienware and VoodooPC customers. They are not enthusiasts by any stretch of the imagination -- yet they insist on buying the most expensive PCs they can get their hands on (or did, before apple became chic).

That's the kind of person to wind up with a dual GTX480 setup. Simply buying one makes them no more of an enthusiast than a dentist with the most expensive harley they can get their hands on is a motorcycle enthusiast.

 

[luv2increase]

I disagree. I know several Alienware and VoodooPC customers. They are not enthusiasts by any stretch of the imagination -- yet they insist on buying the most expensive PCs they can get their hands on (or did, before apple became chic).

That's the kind of person to wind up with a dual GTX480 setup. Simply buying one makes them no more of an enthusiast than a dentist with the most expensive harley they can get their hands on is a motorcycle enthusiast.

I was more so implying those who build their own rigs. It just isn't cool IMHO to waste money from buying an OEM gaming rig.