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Federal judge rules "intelligent design"... UPDATE

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Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Originally posted by: sandorski
I'd agree that Court is not the best place to decide this issue, but it seems that School Boards can also be the wrong place to decide it as well. Children deserve an Education in Public Schools, not an indoctrination to the religious whims of those who happen to get Elected to a School Board.
Just remember... the Universe is full of possibilities
Yes, but I hope that people teaching my children creationism in public schools isn't one of them.
 
Originally posted by: Meuge
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Originally posted by: sandorski
I'd agree that Court is not the best place to decide this issue, but it seems that School Boards can also be the wrong place to decide it as well. Children deserve an Education in Public Schools, not an indoctrination to the religious whims of those who happen to get Elected to a School Board.
Just remember... the Universe is full of possibilities
Yes, but I hope that people teaching my children creationism in public schools isn't one of them.
Creation was in my science books back in the day. Its mentioned as a "what some people think" type entry.

Sort of like in history class we learned about various religions.

 
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Originally posted by: Meuge
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Originally posted by: sandorski
I'd agree that Court is not the best place to decide this issue, but it seems that School Boards can also be the wrong place to decide it as well. Children deserve an Education in Public Schools, not an indoctrination to the religious whims of those who happen to get Elected to a School Board.
Just remember... the Universe is full of possibilities
Yes, but I hope that people teaching my children creationism in public schools isn't one of them.
Creation was in my science books back in the day. Its mentioned as a "what some people think" type entry.

Sort of like in history class we learned about various religions.

That's great...for history class. But there is no place in science for "what some poeple think" unless there is a scientific basis for that thinking. Religion is very democratic in this respect, your beliefs are just as valid and good as my beliefs. Science is NOT democratic, if you can't back your opinion up with something, you don't get to talk. In a way, I'm surprised more conservatives aren't behind this...it's the ultimate conservative approach to things. The whole "ID" nonsense is pretty PC if you ask me, "it's wrong for science to dismiss my beliefs!"
 
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Originally posted by: Meuge
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Originally posted by: sandorski
I'd agree that Court is not the best place to decide this issue, but it seems that School Boards can also be the wrong place to decide it as well. Children deserve an Education in Public Schools, not an indoctrination to the religious whims of those who happen to get Elected to a School Board.
Just remember... the Universe is full of possibilities
Yes, but I hope that people teaching my children creationism in public schools isn't one of them.
Creation was in my science books back in the day. Its mentioned as a "what some people think" type entry.

Sort of like in history class we learned about various religions.
Yes... but it shouldn't be in the science books. They're science books. If anything, they should emphasize the lack of support for any religious theories of creation.

I would be ok seeing it in a history book though. It is history, after all.

P.S. As a "this is what some people thought" kind of entry.
 
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Originally posted by: Meuge
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Originally posted by: sandorski
I'd agree that Court is not the best place to decide this issue, but it seems that School Boards can also be the wrong place to decide it as well. Children deserve an Education in Public Schools, not an indoctrination to the religious whims of those who happen to get Elected to a School Board.
Just remember... the Universe is full of possibilities
Yes, but I hope that people teaching my children creationism in public schools isn't one of them.
Creation was in my science books back in the day. Its mentioned as a "what some people think" type entry.

Sort of like in history class we learned about various religions.

That's great...for history class. But there is no place in science for "what some poeple think" unless there is a scientific basis for that thinking. Religion is very democratic in this respect, your beliefs are just as valid and good as my beliefs. Science is NOT democratic, if you can't back your opinion up with something, you don't get to talk. In a way, I'm surprised more conservatives aren't behind this...it's the ultimate conservative approach to things. The whole "ID" nonsense is pretty PC if you ask me, "it's wrong for science to dismiss my beliefs!"

Yes....but science class in school wasn't just about black and white.

Its about exploration, trial and error, sparking imagination, creativity.

Its the imagination and the what ifs that will cure cancer and solve the energy crisis.
 
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Yes....but science class in school wasn't just about black and white.
Its about exploration, trial and error, sparking imagination, creativity.
None of which have anything to do with teaching Creationism
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Its the imagination and the what ifs that will cure cancer and solve the energy crisis.
Yes, but imagination and "what-ifs" don't come from religious dogma. I would think you'd have learned that in history class.
 
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Originally posted by: Meuge
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Originally posted by: sandorski
I'd agree that Court is not the best place to decide this issue, but it seems that School Boards can also be the wrong place to decide it as well. Children deserve an Education in Public Schools, not an indoctrination to the religious whims of those who happen to get Elected to a School Board.
Just remember... the Universe is full of possibilities
Yes, but I hope that people teaching my children creationism in public schools isn't one of them.
Creation was in my science books back in the day. Its mentioned as a "what some people think" type entry.

Sort of like in history class we learned about various religions.

That's great...for history class. But there is no place in science for "what some poeple think" unless there is a scientific basis for that thinking. Religion is very democratic in this respect, your beliefs are just as valid and good as my beliefs. Science is NOT democratic, if you can't back your opinion up with something, you don't get to talk. In a way, I'm surprised more conservatives aren't behind this...it's the ultimate conservative approach to things. The whole "ID" nonsense is pretty PC if you ask me, "it's wrong for science to dismiss my beliefs!"

Yes....but science class in school wasn't just about black and white.

Its about exploration, trial and error, sparking imagination, creativity.

Its the imagination and the what ifs that will cure cancer and solve the energy crisis.

The entire basis of religion is on faith; something that isn't exactly provable (otherwise we wouldn't call it faith). Science is based on, well, science. Things that you can witness and prove have occurred, are occurring or are likely to occur.

Your example of teaching about religion in a history class holds no ground, since religion has a part in history.

 
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Originally posted by: Meuge
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Originally posted by: sandorski
I'd agree that Court is not the best place to decide this issue, but it seems that School Boards can also be the wrong place to decide it as well. Children deserve an Education in Public Schools, not an indoctrination to the religious whims of those who happen to get Elected to a School Board.
Just remember... the Universe is full of possibilities
Yes, but I hope that people teaching my children creationism in public schools isn't one of them.
Creation was in my science books back in the day. Its mentioned as a "what some people think" type entry.

Sort of like in history class we learned about various religions.

That's great...for history class. But there is no place in science for "what some poeple think" unless there is a scientific basis for that thinking. Religion is very democratic in this respect, your beliefs are just as valid and good as my beliefs. Science is NOT democratic, if you can't back your opinion up with something, you don't get to talk. In a way, I'm surprised more conservatives aren't behind this...it's the ultimate conservative approach to things. The whole "ID" nonsense is pretty PC if you ask me, "it's wrong for science to dismiss my beliefs!"

Yes....but science class in school wasn't just about black and white.

Its about exploration, trial and error, sparking imagination, creativity.

Its the imagination and the what ifs that will cure cancer and solve the energy crisis.

I agree, but it IS at the very least about science. Of course science should be approached with imagination, exploration, trial and error and creativity as the most important lessons. But all in the context of science...the non-scientific beliefs of religious people do not fit.
 
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Do we really want judges deciding what should be taught in schools?

Do we really want the Religious deciding what should be taught in schools?

I see nothing wrong with students being given options.

Debate and critical thinking are very imporant in our world.

And if there were competitve, SCIENTIFIC alternatives to evolution, we would all, I think, be very open to airing them in science class, discussing them in science class, and funding research on them.

Tell you what - name the three most important research thrusts that should be performed to prove the existance of Intelligent Design...and then we'll talk about how it holds together as a scientific theory...

FS
 
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Heres a question...

Today its well known that kids into adults are growing taller and bigger due to many factors.

These include food quantity, quality, disease control, and possibly all the hormones that are stuffed into our food.


Now 10000 years from now scientists dig up our bones not knowing about the factors that attributed to the growth differences....what would they conclude?

Go read a book on anthropology - we can, in this day and age, measure bone density from fossils and buried remains and notice the change of nutrients available to both animals and humans that must have lived in those times. I suppose that we won't have lost those skills by then...

Future Shock
 
Originally posted by: Future Shock
Go read a book on anthropology - we can, in this day and age, measure bone density from fossils and buried remains and notice the change of nutrients available to both animals and humans that must have lived in those times. I suppose that we won't have lost those skills by then...

Well, we might have, if it the students were being taught ID and the like all those years.
 
Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
Originally posted by: arsbanned

I think this judge is brave, given the political climate. He should probably avoid parking garages late at night. 😉
Anyway, it's great to see there are some smart people in this country after all.



Damn 'Activist Judges' . . . this one was appointed by George W. Bush, by the way . . .

You stole my post - I think this is the most hilarious aspect of this whole case.

In all honesty, I think that this judge has just proven that he is Supreme Court materiel. Which means that he can probably never get appointed in this climate. He did what was legally correct, he interpreted the Consitution from a legal perspective, he ignored the politics, and he even ignored his own personal beliefs. He even ignored who appointed him. I also liked the fact that he especially noted that he was NOT an activist judge, to head off those cries before they start.

I wouldn't mind a pack of judges like him on the Supremes and having abortion judged - whichever way it came out, I could at least be confident that it was judged on the law, and not on politics...

Future Shock
 
Originally posted by: Future Shock
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Heres a question...

Today its well known that kids into adults are growing taller and bigger due to many factors.

These include food quantity, quality, disease control, and possibly all the hormones that are stuffed into our food.


Now 10000 years from now scientists dig up our bones not knowing about the factors that attributed to the growth differences....what would they conclude?

Go read a book on anthropology - we can, in this day and age, measure bone density from fossils and buried remains and notice the change of nutrients available to both animals and humans that must have lived in those times. I suppose that we won't have lost those skills by then...

Future Shock

You forget about the nuclear war fueled darkness that I forgot to mention 😉

 
Originally posted by: halik
Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
And over and over . . . again and again . . .

They pulled that in Florida in the mid 1990's and the Activist' School board forced it in . . .

. . . for a while. Eventually the voters were able to get the radical activists off off the board
and the school returned to what passes for 'normal' in Florida.

Don't care what you call it - Intelligent Design, Bible Study, Penguin Love . . .
it has no place in a public school.

I didn't go to Church to learn Math and Physics . . . (although they do teach a hell of a Geography lesson)

Christians are from here and here, pagans, and devils came from there and there.


theres nothing wrong with penguin love


I'll see and raise your penguin love

 
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Originally posted by: M00T
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Heres a question...

Today its well known that kids into adults are growing taller and bigger due to many factors.

These include food quantity, quality, disease control, and possibly all the hormones that are stuffed into our food.


Now 10000 years from now scientists dig up our bones not knowing about the factors that attributed to the growth differences....what would they conclude?


Are you trying to refute macro-evolution? You have claimed a false analogy.

Fallacies.

What I am saying is that there are outside factors that can lead to "changes" that have nothing to do with evolution as an order of nature.

Launch a couple thousand nukes and you will see what I mean.



As a scientist I would approach it this way:

The data and evidence you would have to gather to base you conclusions are dependent on the technology and tools you have available to you at the time. Without certain tools or methods you may be able to make a claim that such changes are due to genetic changes, and there may not be proper understanding or technology to provide contrary evidence. However, even at such a time your suppositions would not be seen as conclusive, as another scientist could/would just as easily claim that the changes are environmental, and there would be insufficent data to distinguish the two. Therefore the conclusions are uncertain. IE nobody really knows, and it would be treated as such scientifically.

Now, years later, greater technology develops that could examine the microscopic and molecular structure of the bones. A clever scientist compares that the older "short" bones are lacking in certain minerals which the newer "long" bones do not. Dating could show they are only a few hundred years apart and mutation/evolutionary rates could be calculated (and seen as extremely high.) DNA evidence could show that the genentic makeup of the two "populations" are close and are not consistant with what would be needed for a genetic basis for increased growth. This scientist has then conclusively proven that environmental factors are to credit for the growth (unless other studies show contradictory evidence, and then debate would go on.)


This is the scientific process. It is a rational process based on logic and evidence. Hubris in scientific knowledge is a competitive disadvantage and the system works effectively to tear it down by academic, professional and economic incentives. Anyone is free to participate in the process, so if you think you have conclusive evidence and arguements that provides a better explaination of the phenomenon, nothing is stopping you to so it other than your own motivation.

Be warned however, the scientific community is highly competitive, critical and brutal. Your theories will be challenged from every logical angle. Just one look at the (fraudulent) Korean Stem Cell researchers is proof enough of the rigors of the process.
 
I want to see if I can get my theory taught in High School science classes. I call it, "ID" which stands for "Ignorant Design." Essentially my theory in a nutshell: The earth and all life upon it was created by a random cosmic error.

Think it'll pass muster?
 
He's probably living in a rural area, without much interaction in the sciences. It's obvious he bought into the ID bandwagon hook line and sinker.
 
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Originally posted by: fierydemise
GoPackGo what is your problem with evolution?

(fade to Sprokets)

Darwin's Burden ...

"Monkey Monkey, where is the Monkey"

I'm sorry I don't get what you're saying, will you restate it in a more straight forward manner
 
Originally posted by: M00T
He's probably living in a rural area, without much interaction in the sciences. It's obvious he bought into the ID bandwagon hook line and sinker.

Not in rural area.
and no...I have not bought into ID
 
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