Fat loss - how to lose the bulge and gain the ripples

[Powermoloch]

I've been gradually upping my squats, 5 lbs per workout session. So far I have reached 195 lbs, 2 months ago i can't barely do a proper 90 lbs. And I can see my thighs taking shape O_O !

 

[SociallyChallenged]

I've been gradually upping my squats, 5 lbs per workout session. So far I have reached 195 lbs, 2 months ago i can't barely do a proper 90 lbs. And I can see my thighs taking shape O_O !

Great job, man. Rock those gains as long as you can. Besides the improvements in fitness and aesthetics, how's the weight loss going?

 

[Powermoloch]

Great job, man. Rock those gains as long as you can. Besides the improvements in fitness and aesthetics, how's the weight loss going?

So far I have maintained my weight, And probably gained just a little (2 lbs) since I started my SL since december of 2010....and not forgetting the holidays sheeesh D: !. But I added cardio in a mix as well, and I'm so far rocking 4 miles per jogging session.

Right now after taking the post workout shake, i'm at 182.2 lb. @ 5'10".

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another thought
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I'm not sure if i have to lose another 10 lbs to hit the magical 170 lb number, but I like to maintain my weight...somehow I would like to turn my love handles into muscle into my other parts of my body. What would you recommend with my situation?

typical workoutdays: SL -> Jog -> SL -> jog -> break -> SL - jog .

 

[norsy]

New Question : Does a person with a high body fat (20%+) need to be on a calorie surplus to be able to add muscle? Or at the other end, can an overweight individual be on caloric deficit and still add muscle? If so, till what body fat levels do you think he can continue to do so?
Thanks

 

[SociallyChallenged]

New Question : Does a person with a high body fat (20%+) need to be on a calorie surplus to be able to add muscle? Or at the other end, can an overweight individual be on caloric deficit and still add muscle? If so, till what body fat levels do you think he can continue to do so?
Thanks

On a maintainable level, everyone looking to gain muscle mass must be in a caloric surplus. Fat doesn't magically convert to protein - it's an impossible reaction in the human body (requires too much energy). There does seem to be some research supporting beginner muscle gains, where someone gains muscle and loses fat without changing their diet. There isn't really a good explanation of how or why, but it doesn't last for very long (maybe 4-8 weeks). Depending on an individual's size, he/she may gain 2-4lbs of muscle and lose similar amounts of fat.

Like I said, there isn't a body fat % cut-off. There's an experience cut-off. However, to make consistent gains in muscle mass, everyone must be in a caloric surplus.

 

[norsy]

But doesn't a high body fat indicate that a person is already eating more than is required or is it that continued weight gain is the only indication of someone being in a calorie surplus irrespective of how fat he is?

I recently moved on to an intermediate strength routine (bill starrs 5x5) but I have become really fat from my previous routine and am not looking forward to bulk up any more. Would you recommend going on a cut before coming back to the 5x5 routine again?

Thanks

 

[SociallyChallenged]

But doesn't a high body fat indicate that a person is already eating more than is required or is it that continued weight gain is the only indication of someone being in a calorie surplus irrespective of how fat he is?

I recently moved on to an intermediate strength routine (bill starrs 5x5) but I have become really fat from my previous routine and am not looking forward to bulk up any more. Would you recommend going on a cut before coming back to the 5x5 routine again?

Thanks

A large amount of body fat is an indicator that the individual, at some point, was in a caloric surplus. It doesn't mean that they're in a caloric surplus right now. Humans can only gain weight while in a caloric surplus. If you're not in a caloric surplus, you don't gain weight. It's that simple.

Also, how "fat" did you get? You're asking about an individual with 20% body fat, which isn't terribly fat. If you're not looking to gain any more fat weight, it'd probably be best to do a cutting period and then maybe return to a slower, more controlled bulk with healthier foods. Some people eat like crap while bulking just to add on some heft, but the dirtier the bulk is, the more fat you gain.

 

[norsy]

Thanks SC.

Would it be right to say then that this guy is completely off the mark:

Now some people start with a pretty big margin of bodyfat (approaching 20% or more), these people already have significant caloric excess built into their base diet. Most of them find that they can hold their calories constant and for a while they will add muscle and the maintenance of that muscle will use up the excess calories that are currently going toward maintaining their excess fat. This won't last forever but it will likely get them down to the mid to low teens without any issues. Everybody with lower bodyfat needs to add excess to their base diet as this body recomposition lowers bodyfat by nature and it gets harder and harder to pull off. And really even holding bodyfat constant and gaining muscle requires a proportion of the gain to be fat just to maintain the ratio.

Got this from madcow's diet page:
http://stronglifts.com/madcow/Topics/Diet.htm

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Thanks SC.

Would it be right to say then that this guy is completely off the mark:

Got this from madcow's diet page:
http://stronglifts.com/madcow/Topics/Diet.htm

Well, it would be right to say that there is no evidence whatsoever substantiating this claim. Research has shown time and time again: to gain muscle, you need an extrinsic caloric excess; to lose fat, you need an extrinsic caloric deficit. His article tries to involve an inherent intrinsic caloric surplus, but he's also talking about eating at an extrinsic caloric maintenance. If you eat at caloric maintenance, nothing happens to the fat, and only dietary intake of calories is utilized.

 

[Terzo]

I've decided to add some cardio into my mix, and I'm a bit curious as to how that'll affect me. My goal right now is weight loss, but I want to improve my cardiovascular endurance as well.

I'm doing Starting Strength, three times a week. I understand that it's best to separate cardio and weight lifting, but what's best for me right now is to keep my workouts to three times a week. With that in mind, I've started rowing 2000 meters after lifting. I figured during weekdays I'll work on speed (staying at 2000 meters), and increase distance on weekends till I hit 5000 meters.

Back to the main question, will this really affect me since I'm trying to lose weight anyways? I believe you've (SC, that is) said cardio immediately following lifting inhibits hypertrophy. However, isn't that irrelevant when in a calorie deficit? From what I understand I wont be gaining muscle, only (ideally) losing fat.

I'm pretty sure the cardio is worth it (burn more calories and better endurance), I'm just wondering if the usual downsides apply to me.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

I've decided to add some cardio into my mix, and I'm a bit curious as to how that'll affect me. My goal right now is weight loss, but I want to improve my cardiovascular endurance as well.

I'm doing Starting Strength, three times a week. I understand that it's best to separate cardio and weight lifting, but what's best for me right now is to keep my workouts to three times a week. With that in mind, I've started rowing 2000 meters after lifting. I figured during weekdays I'll work on speed (staying at 2000 meters), and increase distance on weekends till I hit 5000 meters.

Back to the main question, will this really affect me since I'm trying to lose weight anyways? I believe you've (SC, that is) said cardio immediately following lifting inhibits hypertrophy. However, isn't that irrelevant when in a calorie deficit? From what I understand I wont be gaining muscle, only (ideally) losing fat.

I'm pretty sure the cardio is worth it (burn more calories and better endurance), I'm just wondering if the usual downsides apply to me.

Well, it depends. The hypertrophic pathways reduce breakdown of muscle by putting it at a high genetic priority. Because of pathways like mTOR/AKT, the worked musculature actually gets more resources. Because of this, your body must utilize fat stores for other energy requirements. Sure, you'll get stronger, and yes, you'll likely still lose weight. However, your recovery will be pretty significantly hindered, and you may lose some muscle mass. Either way, you'll likely have some pretty pleasing results. I know some people like to be active overall, but if it makes you really hungry or starts to impede your progress, then its not worth it. Try it out, see how you feel. If you aren't dying of hunger and feel pretty good, keep with it. If not, switch back. You won't waste any of your time though It all helps you lose weight.

 

[Terzo]

Thanks. One more question about rowing. When I used to row I'd just crack the resistance up to 10. I know I've heard that somewhere in the 3-4 range best simulates the resistance of water, but is there an ideal resistance for cardio? Not that I think it would make a significant difference, just curious.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Thanks. One more question about rowing. When I used to row I'd just crack the resistance up to 10. I know I've heard that somewhere in the 3-4 range best simulates the resistance of water, but is there an ideal resistance for cardio? Not that I think it would make a significant difference, just curious.

I've seen most Erg teams use 4-5 as their setting. As to whether that simulates water or not, I don't know. I do know that it's a pretty good resistance to do longer cardio on. Rowing at 10 is silly because it wears you down so quickly.

 

[bossman34]

On a maintainable level, everyone looking to gain muscle mass must be in a caloric surplus. Fat doesn't magically convert to protein - it's an impossible reaction in the human body (requires too much energy). There does seem to be some research supporting beginner muscle gains, where someone gains muscle and loses fat without changing their diet. There isn't really a good explanation of how or why, but it doesn't last for very long (maybe 4-8 weeks). Depending on an individual's size, he/she may gain 2-4lbs of muscle and lose similar amounts of fat.

Like I said, there isn't a body fat % cut-off. There's an experience cut-off. However, to make consistent gains in muscle mass, everyone must be in a caloric surplus.

You are absolutely right that fat doesn't magically convert to protein, BUT you don't necessarily have to be in a calorie surplus to gain muscle mass. The 3 main functions of fat are to provide a source of energy, protect vital organs, and construct/maintain structural elements such as cell membranes.

When you are following a proper diet (well balanced macro nutrients...not too many carbs) stored body fat is used as an energy source. When your body is able to use stored body fat as energy (as opposed to ingested fat and carbs) protein that you ingest can be used as intended which is to build and maintain muscle and other vital cells. This allows you to build muscle while losing weight (body fat).

Keep in mind that this is most effective when you limit your carb intake (less than 150 g/day...less than 100 g/day is ideal). When you consume too many carbs your body won't dip into it's own energy reserves because it doesn't have to since the carbs are providing all of the energy you need. The more carbs you consume, the greater insulin response you have. Insulin inhibits your body's ability to use stored fat as energy...in fact, it stores excess fat and carbs as body fat.

I'm not saying that gaining muscle while on a calorie deficit is easy...it's not, but it can be done with a strict diet and well planned exercise routine (read: limited cardio and focus on weight training).

Most of the research regarding muscle gain while on a calorie deficit use "conventional" nutritional planning that consists of a high amount of carbs which will seriously impact results.

PS - I have been away from this forum for a loooong time, but have recently returned to check things out. It's good to see a lot of the same names including SC...you know your stuff!

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Research shows that there are beginner gains where an individual can gain muscle mass while in a caloric deficit. However, there isn't any research showing continuous lean muscle gains, under any diet constraints. You're saying that stored fat is used for energy and that protein intake is used to build muscle. The problem is that the body is in a catabolic state. The protein is used to maintain muscle mass, but it's unlikely that your body will over-mobilize your fat stored to compensate and put you in an anabolic state. An anabolic state, while dieting, is maintenance at best. You can maintain muscle mass, gain a little bit especially as a beginner, lose fat, and gain strength. I would disagree with your statement that individuals can consistently gain muscle in a caloric deficit though. I've seen anecdotal evidence that could suggest that, but the current research doesn't lend enough knowledge into this for me to change the way I explain nutrition to individuals. There could be a lot of genetic variability with this, especially among differing body types.

Btw, welcome back to the forums. It's always nice to chat exercise science with people.

 

[bossman34]

To be fair, I never said that "individuals can consistently gain muscle in a caloric deficit."

The original question was, "Does a person with a high body fat (20%+) need to be on a calorie surplus to be able to add muscle? Or at the other end, can an overweight individual be on caloric deficit and still add muscle?"

I am saying that yes, it can be done in this situation. Obviously, there will be diminishing returns and it can't be done consistently or forever...a calorie deficit will catch up with you eventually.

I just read your statement about how muscle gain/fat loss can be maintained for 4-8 weeks which I agree with so maybe we're really in agreement with what's possible...lol.

I just know from experience that, even at a relatively low body fat %, it's possible to add muscle mass while cutting. I've done it numerous times myself and helped clients do the same. It's not easy, but it can be done.

 

[purbeast0]

Couple questions about food that I did not see in the OP here so I thought I'd ask.

How "good" are whole wheat breads to eat when trying to go on a cutting cycle? I'm thinking of having tuna sandwiches on wheat bread or chicken salad sandwiches, however I will be eating 2 of these a day and don't want to over do the carbs if wheat bread is not that good for you. Also how is adding a piece of swiss cheese to this?

And I'm also wondering how good Hummus is for you in this same situation. I know in general Hummus is pretty decent for you, but with Whole Wheat Pita being on the list of things to eat, I can see having wheat pita + hummus for a fairly healthy snack.

Thanks!

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Couple questions about food that I did not see in the OP here so I thought I'd ask.

How "good" are whole wheat breads to eat when trying to go on a cutting cycle? I'm thinking of having tuna sandwiches on wheat bread or chicken salad sandwiches, however I will be eating 2 of these a day and don't want to over do the carbs if wheat bread is not that good for you. Also how is adding a piece of swiss cheese to this?

And I'm also wondering how good Hummus is for you in this same situation. I know in general Hummus is pretty decent for you, but with Whole Wheat Pita being on the list of things to eat, I can see having wheat pita + hummus for a fairly healthy snack.

Thanks!

Eh, while cutting, a lot of grains aren't really gonna help you lean out. Assuming each slice of bread has around 20g of carbs (which is average), you'd be adding 80g of extra carbs, which is 320cal. Honestly, I wouldn't do it. I'd find something else to eat it with. For me, that was tuna + cucumber slices (used like crackers). It helps you cut calories and leave carbs on the low side. Calories from wheat are also pretty inflammatory so if you cut them out, you'd be improving your overall health as well.

Hummus should be fine, but again, I wouldn't really eat it with grains. I'd rather eat it with fresh veggies - carrots, bell peppers, cucumbers, etc.

 

[purbeast0]

Eh, while cutting, a lot of grains aren't really gonna help you lean out. Assuming each slice of bread has around 20g of carbs (which is average), you'd be adding 80g of extra carbs, which is 320cal. Honestly, I wouldn't do it. I'd find something else to eat it with. For me, that was tuna + cucumber slices (used like crackers). It helps you cut calories and leave carbs on the low side. Calories from wheat are also pretty inflammatory so if you cut them out, you'd be improving your overall health as well.

Hummus should be fine, but again, I wouldn't really eat it with grains. I'd rather eat it with fresh veggies - carrots, bell peppers, cucumbers, etc.

Thanks for the reply.

The problem I have is that if I don't eat some sort of carbs I won't really get full. I am just not sure what to eat with the food for lunches while at work.

Last week I ate chicken salad sandwiches (on whole wheat) and tuna salad sandwiches (on whole wheat again). i'd have 1 slice of swiss cheese on it as well and would have 1 sandwich around 11:30am and another around 2:30 or 3pm. If I try to cut out more carbs at that time, then I am not sure what to eat in replacement of it. I mean I definitely could just eat chicken salad out of the tub with a fork, but I'd probably feel hungry again in a little bit. and I'm using very little light mayo in my chicken/tuna salad as I'm not a big mayo fan.

i also don't like cucumbers in general, so I can't really try that. they give me indigestion.

i'm just trying to figure out something that I can eat for lunch that will help me when I try to cut up. dinner isn't a problem, I've been eating a cut of meat about 12oz and some veggies (carrots or asparagus). i also am still lifting and am not sure if i want to lose to many carbs in my diet because i don't want to feel lifeless at the gym heh.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Thanks for the reply.

The problem I have is that if I don't eat some sort of carbs I won't really get full. I am just not sure what to eat with the food for lunches while at work.

Last week I ate chicken salad sandwiches (on whole wheat) and tuna salad sandwiches (on whole wheat again). i'd have 1 slice of swiss cheese on it as well and would have 1 sandwich around 11:30am and another around 2:30 or 3pm. If I try to cut out more carbs at that time, then I am not sure what to eat in replacement of it. I mean I definitely could just eat chicken salad out of the tub with a fork, but I'd probably feel hungry again in a little bit. and I'm using very little light mayo in my chicken/tuna salad as I'm not a big mayo fan.

i also don't like cucumbers in general, so I can't really try that. they give me indigestion.

i'm just trying to figure out something that I can eat for lunch that will help me when I try to cut up. dinner isn't a problem, I've been eating a cut of meat about 12oz and some veggies (carrots or asparagus). i also am still lifting and am not sure if i want to lose to many carbs in my diet because i don't want to feel lifeless at the gym heh.

Out of all the macronutrients, carbohydrates have the least hunger-satiating power. Fats and protein should leave you more full for your buck. The issue is that, when you drop carbs, you probably don't sufficiently replace those calories. Make sure that you're still eating the same number of calories, and I doubt you'll have a problem.

On top of that, have you ever dropped the amount of carbs you consume before? You can them down to ~20% of your caloric intake and you'll be fine, if all you're doing is lifting. If you went ketogenic, then I'd understand because then you'd only be taking in 20-40g of carbs per day. I'm not suggesting that at all. I'm just being honest that consuming that much bread will result in slower fat loss.

Also, I suggest you find some veggies that you really like an incorporate them with your lunch. You have a pretty standard dinner. A standard lunch for me would involve something like a sweet potato plus lean meat plus a piece of fruit and some nuts. The sweet potato would be relatively small and only deliver about half of the calories your bread would. Perhaps that's a better solution?

 

[purbeast0]

Thanks for the input.

I always thought that carbs are what filled you up, maybe it is just me knowing what "satisfies" me normally, so I assume that a sandwich would do it the best. i do like peanuts and almonds and stuff, so I could definitely eat those. not sure if i will really like sweet potatoes, i've never actually cooked them myself. had baked potatoes a bunch but never sweet ones.

I'm going to see what all I can figure out. i'm not big on veggies in general but I could bring some carrots to work to eat for lunch. what i need to mainly figure out i guess right now is how many carbs i'm getting a day and seeing what % of it that is. i drink a lot of skim milk and i know carbs are in that, and then 2 sandwiches a day has carbs as well. my dinner doesn't really have any carbs in it, however my pre-workout "snack" does with the hummus and wheat-pita.

i also chose wheat-pita because i saw that as one of the good carbs to eat in the OP of this thread. i could try eating carrots w/the hummus though, never thought of even trying that. i will also sometimes eat a light yogurt in the evening for a snack, or an apple.

this is only my 2nd week of trying to eat better though so i'm still trying to figure things out.

today for lunch i had a tuna sandwich w/swiss at like 11:30 then another one around like 2pm. this was using almost a full can of 12oz tuna + a heaping teaspoon of light mayo (that made up enough tuna for both sandwiches). i was going to make some chicken tonight to make some chicken salad to eat for a few more days tonight as well.

 

[Saint Nick]

My girl has started hitting the gym with me. She is doing Rippetoe's routine. She is worried about getting "really big".

She is 5' 2" and around 130 lbs. Do you all think she'll get bulky from this workout or will she just look tighter and more toned? Of course she has changed her diet as well by cutting a lot of sugars and just generally eating "cleaner" food (lean meats, veggies, lower fat foods)

 

[SociallyChallenged]

My girl has started hitting the gym with me. She is doing Rippetoe's routine. She is worried about getting "really big".

She is 5' 2" and around 130 lbs. Do you all think she'll get bulky from this workout or will she just look tighter and more toned? Of course she has changed her diet as well by cutting a lot of sugars and just generally eating "cleaner" food (lean meats, veggies, lower fat foods)

For some reason, women are crazy. They think that as soon as they pick up a weight, they'll get big. It takes a lot of time, hard work, and a caloric surplus to get bulky. She'll be fine on Rippetoe's program.

 

[Saint Nick]

For some reason, women are crazy. They think that as soon as they pick up a weight, they'll get big. It takes a lot of time, hard work, and a caloric surplus to get bulky. She'll be fine on Rippetoe's program.

Thanks SC...I knew she would be fine. I think this is the same reason that girl's think running on the treadmill for two hours will help you lose weight.

 

[norsy]

Considering you need a caloric surplus to gain muscle, won't you have to be on a surplus to build a six pack too? (and go on a cut later on to make them visible). I have seen many people doing abs only during a cut thinking since the abs will show only at a low bf they might as well start working it only during a cut. Isn't this approach wrong?