Fed spending is 24% of GDP, so if you exempt the first 35K, the rate would be over 30% for the rest.
Fed spending is 24% of GDP, so if you exempt the first 35K, the rate would be over 30% for the rest.
here in belgium we have a system of progressive value added taxes, life essential goods (food, housing, etc) get 6% added, while all the rest gets 21 % added (this is besides the 40 to 60% income tax, but since that one would be cancelled in the US this doesnt matter)
the no fraud argument doesnt work tho.
companies can make it look like part of their sales went to other companies (thus without taxes) wheras they did not (and were sold to normal consumers) that way they get the taxes for themselves, in fact, this is a very common method of fraud with VAT.
the no fraud argument doesnt work tho.
companies can make it look like part of their sales went to other companies (thus without taxes) wheras they did not (and were sold to normal consumers) that way they get the taxes for themselves, in fact, this is a very common method of fraud with VAT.
Well, whatever the percentage you come up with or dollar amount, doesn't really matter. The point is its fair instead of 5 different percentages, multitudes of deductions, some paying, some not, arguments on both sides, who gets what, fair/not fair, etc. It might be over 30%, how much over is the question, but right now the top rate is what - 38% and the bottom rate is 10%. I guarantee you one thing, there would be a huge increase in tax revenue for the U.S.
Isnt it odd how "fair" is not fair because it isnt progressive, and "progressive" is not fair because it's not "fair"?
Does that make sense?
Does that make sense?
Neither one is fair, but who cares. Fair is subjective term, and no tax system will be "fair" to everyone.
But go ahead and try to convince majority of Americans it's in their interest to pay 30% combined sales tax. See how far that goes
"The subject of every State ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the State." -Adam Smith.
I guess Adam Smith was a commie hater of successful people :roll:
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Neither one is fair, but who cares. Fair is subjective term, and no tax system will be "fair" to everyone.
But go ahead and try to convince majority of Americans it's in their interest to pay 30% combined sales tax. See how far that goes
"The subject of every State ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the State." -Adam Smith.
I guess Adam Smith was a commie hater of successful people :roll:
I'd gladly pay 30% combined sales tax in exchange for 0% income withholdings, and ~20% drop in the price of consumer goods since taxes would only be paid on end user products. Most Americans are just too ignorant to realize such a thing before hand.
- Oct 31, 2000
- 27,519
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Originally posted by: MrGrim257
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Neither one is fair, but who cares. Fair is subjective term, and no tax system will be "fair" to everyone.
But go ahead and try to convince majority of Americans it's in their interest to pay 30% combined sales tax. See how far that goes
"The subject of every State ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the State." -Adam Smith.
I guess Adam Smith was a commie hater of successful people :roll:
I'd gladly pay 30% combined sales tax in exchange for 0% income withholdings, and ~20% drop in the price of consumer goods since taxes would only be paid on end user products. Most Americans are just too ignorant to realize such a thing before hand.
I would too. And you're right, most americans are too ignorant to realize how good the system would work - they'll just say "OMFGWTFBBQ - 23% Tax - NO WAY!!" and not realize that is all the tax they'll ever have to pay. The biggest burden supporters of the initiative will face is educating the stupid.
Originally posted by: MrGrim257
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Neither one is fair, but who cares. Fair is subjective term, and no tax system will be "fair" to everyone.
But go ahead and try to convince majority of Americans it's in their interest to pay 30% combined sales tax. See how far that goes
"The subject of every State ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the State." -Adam Smith.
I guess Adam Smith was a commie hater of successful people :roll:
I'd gladly pay 30% combined sales tax in exchange for 0% income withholdings, and ~20% drop in the price of consumer goods since taxes would only be paid on end user products. Most Americans are just too ignorant to realize such a thing before hand.
Think of all the sales taxes you are paying already and see what it amounts to. Depending on what you buy and how much you buy currently, it could be that much. What makes you think there would be a 20% drop in the price of consumer goods anyway? This doesn't have anything to do with sales tax.
- Oct 31, 2000
- 27,519
- 2
- 81
Originally posted by: Rockhound
Originally posted by: MrGrim257
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Neither one is fair, but who cares. Fair is subjective term, and no tax system will be "fair" to everyone.
But go ahead and try to convince majority of Americans it's in their interest to pay 30% combined sales tax. See how far that goes
"The subject of every State ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the State." -Adam Smith.
I guess Adam Smith was a commie hater of successful people :roll:
I'd gladly pay 30% combined sales tax in exchange for 0% income withholdings, and ~20% drop in the price of consumer goods since taxes would only be paid on end user products. Most Americans are just too ignorant to realize such a thing before hand.
Think of all the sales taxes you are paying already and see what it amounts to. Depending on what you buy and how much you buy currently, it could be that much. What makes you think there would be a 20% drop in the price of consumer goods anyway? This doesn't have anything to do with sales tax.
RTFL - companies that produce products would no longer have to pay taxes out the rear like they currently have to. The cost of taxes for a company is already passed onto comsumers that pay for a product - by not having to pay taxes, the company can cut out the cost and reduce the overall price of the product.
This link should help many of you guys out: http://www.fairtaxvolunteer.org/smart/faq.html
Originally posted by: rbloedow
Originally posted by: Rockhound
Originally posted by: MrGrim257
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Neither one is fair, but who cares. Fair is subjective term, and no tax system will be "fair" to everyone.
But go ahead and try to convince majority of Americans it's in their interest to pay 30% combined sales tax. See how far that goes
"The subject of every State ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the State." -Adam Smith.
I guess Adam Smith was a commie hater of successful people :roll:
I'd gladly pay 30% combined sales tax in exchange for 0% income withholdings, and ~20% drop in the price of consumer goods since taxes would only be paid on end user products. Most Americans are just too ignorant to realize such a thing before hand.
Think of all the sales taxes you are paying already and see what it amounts to. Depending on what you buy and how much you buy currently, it could be that much. What makes you think there would be a 20% drop in the price of consumer goods anyway? This doesn't have anything to do with sales tax.
RTFL - companies that produce products would no longer have to pay taxes out the rear like they currently have to. The cost of taxes for a company is already passed onto comsumers that pay for a product - by not having to pay taxes, the company can cut out the cost and reduce the overall price of the product.
This link should help many of you guys out: http://www.fairtaxvolunteer.org/smart/faq.html
Why shouldn't corperations be forced to pay taxes. Corperations use goverment resources yet you think they should be required to pay for any of it?
Originally posted by: rbloedow
Originally posted by: Rockhound
Originally posted by: MrGrim257
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Neither one is fair, but who cares. Fair is subjective term, and no tax system will be "fair" to everyone.
But go ahead and try to convince majority of Americans it's in their interest to pay 30% combined sales tax. See how far that goes
"The subject of every State ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the State." -Adam Smith.
I guess Adam Smith was a commie hater of successful people :roll:
I'd gladly pay 30% combined sales tax in exchange for 0% income withholdings, and ~20% drop in the price of consumer goods since taxes would only be paid on end user products. Most Americans are just too ignorant to realize such a thing before hand.
Think of all the sales taxes you are paying already and see what it amounts to. Depending on what you buy and how much you buy currently, it could be that much. What makes you think there would be a 20% drop in the price of consumer goods anyway? This doesn't have anything to do with sales tax.
RTFL - companies that produce products would no longer have to pay taxes out the rear like they currently have to. The cost of taxes for a company is already passed onto comsumers that pay for a product - by not having to pay taxes, the company can cut out the cost and reduce the overall price of the product.
This link should help many of you guys out: http://www.fairtaxvolunteer.org/smart/faq.html
Yea, but you are assuming that the company will actually do that (cut the product price). What makes you think they will? And if they don't, what happens? This doesn't necessarily help low end wage earners. That site says basically the same thing a flat tax says only people still pay a different percentage based on their income (23% vs. 12%). That's not much different than it is today. There are a lot of assumptions taking place there. I'd have to read it more closely, but I don't see that big of a difference.
Dissipate
Diamond Member
- Jan 17, 2004
- 6,815
- 0
- 0
I haven't heard Niel Boortz's show but, I've been to his web site and the guy seems full of himself and in love with Bush.
As a Libertarian I would like to quote Lew Rockwell here in the context of the "Fair Tax":
We should eliminate the income tax altogether, not replace it with something else.
From Lew's: What should freedom lovers do? article.
As a Libertarian I would like to quote Lew Rockwell here in the context of the "Fair Tax":
We should eliminate the income tax altogether, not replace it with something else.
From Lew's: What should freedom lovers do? article.
Originally posted by: MrGrim257
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Neither one is fair, but who cares. Fair is subjective term, and no tax system will be "fair" to everyone.
But go ahead and try to convince majority of Americans it's in their interest to pay 30% combined sales tax. See how far that goes
"The subject of every State ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the State." -Adam Smith.
I guess Adam Smith was a commie hater of successful people :roll:
I'd gladly pay 30% combined sales tax in exchange for 0% income withholdings, and ~20% drop in the price of consumer goods since taxes would only be paid on end user products. Most Americans are just too ignorant to realize such a thing before hand.
20% drop in prices is a pipe dream. What you cons fail to mention is that even those corporations who don't weasel out of paying taxes pay those taxes on profits, not revenues. For prices to drop 20% would assume that these corporations would save 20% of their sales (revenue) in taxes which they would pass on to their consumers. Now show me corporations that pay 20% of their REVENUE in taxes.
Stop making it so easy to poke holes in your arguements
I know even you cons can do better Looks like rbloedow bought into this pipe dream too I love how all these self proclaimed economists buy into this idea that the government can collect same revenue, but all our taxes are gonna be offset by price decreases, all of the sudden, 24% of GDP is going come out of nowhere. I guess there is such a thing as free lunch for cons.
I love how all these self proclaimed economists buy into this idea that the government can collect same revenue, but all our taxes are gonna be offset by price decreases, all of the sudden, 24% of GDP is going come out of nowhere. I guess there is such a thing as free lunch for cons. Originally posted by: SuperTool
Originally posted by: MrGrim257
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Neither one is fair, but who cares. Fair is subjective term, and no tax system will be "fair" to everyone.
But go ahead and try to convince majority of Americans it's in their interest to pay 30% combined sales tax. See how far that goes
"The subject of every State ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the State." -Adam Smith.
I guess Adam Smith was a commie hater of successful people :roll:
I'd gladly pay 30% combined sales tax in exchange for 0% income withholdings, and ~20% drop in the price of consumer goods since taxes would only be paid on end user products. Most Americans are just too ignorant to realize such a thing before hand.
20% drop in prices is a pipe dream. What you cons fail to mention is that even those corporations who don't weasel out of paying taxes pay those taxes on profits, not revenues. For prices to drop 20% would assume that these corporations would save 20% of their sales (revenue) in taxes which they would pass on to their consumers. Now show me corporations that pay 20% of their REVENUE in taxes.
Stop making it so easy to poke holes in your arguements
It not that the corporation pays alot of taxes their employes do so they could give you a cut in pay now that you no longer need to pay tax.
Originally posted by: Spencer278
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Originally posted by: MrGrim257
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Neither one is fair, but who cares. Fair is subjective term, and no tax system will be "fair" to everyone.
But go ahead and try to convince majority of Americans it's in their interest to pay 30% combined sales tax. See how far that goes
"The subject of every State ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the State." -Adam Smith.
I guess Adam Smith was a commie hater of successful people :roll:
I'd gladly pay 30% combined sales tax in exchange for 0% income withholdings, and ~20% drop in the price of consumer goods since taxes would only be paid on end user products. Most Americans are just too ignorant to realize such a thing before hand.
20% drop in prices is a pipe dream. What you cons fail to mention is that even those corporations who don't weasel out of paying taxes pay those taxes on profits, not revenues. For prices to drop 20% would assume that these corporations would save 20% of their sales (revenue) in taxes which they would pass on to their consumers. Now show me corporations that pay 20% of their REVENUE in taxes.
Stop making it so easy to poke holes in your arguements
It not that the corporation pays alot of taxes their employes do so they could give you a cut in pay now that you no longer need to pay tax.
That is a circuilar arguement. The employees would still have to pay tax, except instead of income, it would be a sales tax. In fact, those who aren't paying 23% fed income tax now (pretty much everyone in middle class) would require a pay hike to make ends meet, so that could raise prices.
Sounds great if you like aristoracy. Hint: the founding fathers did not like aristocracy. Why do I say aristocracy? People accumulate wealth and pass it down to their children. In a situation like this, family wealth would develop more than they already do. What the founders and most Americans want is "you get what you deserve." If you invent something and become rich, great. But sorry, if your daddy was rich, you dont' deserve to be rich. Get it yourself. This is the problem when you strip progressive taxation out of the system.
That said, I'd be for this if there was a 100% inheritance tax to even the fields.
That said, I'd be for this if there was a 100% inheritance tax to even the fields.
I want to see taxation removed from the federal level.
Each state will be tasked to pay taxes to the federal government, proportioned by population, levied on the people as determined by the states.
Each state will be tasked to pay taxes to the federal government, proportioned by population, levied on the people as determined by the states.
work hard all your life, you should be able to pass it on to your children.
sandorski
No Lifer
- Oct 10, 1999
- 70,809
- 6,364
- 126
Would this eliminate the IRS? Sure, but another beauracracy would spring up in its' place, someone has to manage it, ensure that the Taxes are being paid, and ensure businesses are not cooking the books.
Is it "Fair"? Only if you are willing to see the Gap between Rich and Poor go ballistic creating a Third World "True Poor" within the US.
Going to provide Tax Breaks for those under X amount of Income? Hire more beaurocrats to track and verify the eligibility of those claiming <X Income.
If no Income exceptions are allowed, you'll need to eliminate SS and EI/UI payments in order not to Bankrupt the Poor. Without these programs a steady flow of the Poor will sink into an abyss they can't get out of.
This is a Classic case of "if it's not broke, don't fix it". Think about it, the US is currently one of the Wealthiest Nations(if not the Wealthiest) on the Planet and its' Wealth continues to grow, what Need is there for some Radical change with an uncertain result? The US has plenty of Problems that need addressed, yet this is the most important thing to do?
Is it "Fair"? Only if you are willing to see the Gap between Rich and Poor go ballistic creating a Third World "True Poor" within the US.
Going to provide Tax Breaks for those under X amount of Income? Hire more beaurocrats to track and verify the eligibility of those claiming <X Income.
If no Income exceptions are allowed, you'll need to eliminate SS and EI/UI payments in order not to Bankrupt the Poor. Without these programs a steady flow of the Poor will sink into an abyss they can't get out of.
This is a Classic case of "if it's not broke, don't fix it". Think about it, the US is currently one of the Wealthiest Nations(if not the Wealthiest) on the Planet and its' Wealth continues to grow, what Need is there for some Radical change with an uncertain result? The US has plenty of Problems that need addressed, yet this is the most important thing to do?
Dissipate
Diamond Member
- Jan 17, 2004
- 6,815
- 0
- 0
Absolutely. The IRS is an evil & vicious organization. It treats peaceful citizens like criminals. Why the hell does the government need to know my income, or anyone elses? I've said it before, I'll say it again. The two most evil entities in the U.S. are the IRS and the Federal Reserve. The IRS extorts, the Federal Reserve inflates (counterfeits).
That reminds me, I need to get a bumper sticker that says: "EARNING INCOME IS NOT A CRIME"
I'm not a huge fan of the Fair Tax though. I don't think it will pass anytime soon, but if it does we could very well end up with a national sales tax AND an income tax, both.
LunarRay
Diamond Member
- Mar 2, 2003
- 9,993
- 1
- 76
How about making Medicare a 'chit system' each visit gets the patient a check for $25 and each Rx gets a check for $10 per refill.. Everyone retired who has any income from any source over $30,000 starts a phase out of SS benefits to $50,000. After $50k you get no benefit.. and you can opt out today and based on some age scheme you'd get back your input (plus the Er input) over a 20 yr period...
End the system and survival of the fittest.
End the system and survival of the fittest.
You know, tonight Grover Norquist is having a yacht party in New York to support this.
How pompous an ass do you have to be:
To throw a party on a several hundred thousand dollar luxury boat that you just have sitting around for the occasional party and maybe as tertiary or quaternary residence and then say that the taxes you pay are hurting you?
Or to accuse the other party's candidate of being elitist?
How pompous an ass do you have to be:
To throw a party on a several hundred thousand dollar luxury boat that you just have sitting around for the occasional party and maybe as tertiary or quaternary residence and then say that the taxes you pay are hurting you?
Or to accuse the other party's candidate of being elitist?
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