[Extremetech] Nvidia’s GameWorks program usurps power from developers, end-users, AMD

[sontin]

What are you talking about? This is about exclusion from the GAME, not the API. You play GAMES not API's.

Aha. And how can nVidia optimize for a game which doesn't have a DX or OpenGL path? Right.

You complain about something which run also on AMD hardware and yet have no problem with Mantle which run only on AMD.

Hypocrite.

personal attacks are not allowed. -shmee

 

[Maxima1]

No.
What are you basing those number on?

Don't focus on the numbers. The point is the direction it would go.

Aha. And how can nVidia optimize for a game which doesn't have a DX or OpenGL path? Right.

You complain about something which run also on AMD hardware and yet have no problem with Mantle which run only on AMD.

Why are you being obtuse? Are you doing it for the lulz?

 

[Lonbjerg]

Don't focus on the numbers. The point is the direction it would go.

Made up numbers pulled out of thin air are supposed to be an indication of future performance...wut, wut, wut?!!!

I hope you are joking...otherwise I fear we have left reality.

 

[SiliconWars]

Aha. And how can nVidia optimize for a game which doesn't have a DX or OpenGL path? Right.

What games are these or do they only exist in Sontin mind-space?

You complain about something which run also on AMD hardware and yet have no problem with Mantle which run only on AMD.

Hypocrite.

ROFL *I'm* the hypocrite now? You are the one who has been crying like a little girl over your "non open API" and who is now saying it's fine for Nvidia to deliberately cut AMD out of the industry standard API!

This is a simple attempt to exclude AMD out of optimizing the industry standard API that you were previously pretending to be all for so that the industry wouldn't fracture.

Let me put the questions back to you - what's stopping AMD from making their own libraries and doing the same thing? This is *exactly* what you and others have been saying about Mantle - yes *you*. Who's the hypocrite?

 

[Lonbjerg]

What games are these or do they only exist in Sontin mind-space?

ROFL *I'm* the hypocrite now? You are the one who has been crying like a little girl over your "non open API" and who is now saying it's fine for Nvidia to deliberately cut AMD out of the industry standard API!

You do know that Mantle dosn't become "industry standard API" if you just keep repeating it, right?
It false, borderline lying....and it is a fallacious "argument".

Please stop.

 

[AtenRa]

No.
What are you basing those number on?

Those numbers are arbitrary, this is an example to show the differences between Mantle and GameWorks.

 

[Lonbjerg]

Those numbers are arbitrary, this is an example to show the differences between Mantle and GameWorks.

Arbitrary numbers cannot show or prove anything...except that they are arbitrary numbers.

Your numbers hold no more truth than these numbers:


Game A Neutral development
AMD GPU = 1fps (DX11)
NV GPU = 100fps (DX11)

Game A with Mantle
AMD GPU = 13fps (Mantle)
NV GPU = 100fps (DX11)

Game A with GameWorks
AMD GPU = 7fps (DX11)
NV GPU = 130fps (GameWorks)

Now NVIDIA "wins"...and AMD loses.
But Mantle gives AMD a 10 x performance over DX11!!!!!!oneoneone!!!!

Can you see how flawed that kind of "logic" is now?

 

[sontin]

What games are these or do they only exist in Sontin mind-space?

Really, the only reason why Thief will run on nVidia is because Eidos wants to make money. Otherwise they could release a Mantle only game which only would run on AMD hardware. I mean they didn't have a problem to release a game which was broken on nVidia hardware for a month or so... Maybe they dont care about making money at all. :hmm:

ROFL *I'm* the hypocrite now? You are the one who has been crying like a little girl over your "non open API" and who is now saying it's fine for Nvidia to deliberately cut AMD out of the industry standard API!

How is nVidia cutting AMD out when Gameworks doesn't block them from the game?
And what is the difference between Gameworks an TressFX? Or AMD's DoF in Sniper Elite 2?

On the other hand: Do you know what a "open standard" is?

 

[AtenRa]

Arbitrary numbers cannot show or prove anything...except that they are arbitrary numbers.

Your numbers hold no more truth than these numbers:


Game A Neutral development
AMD GPU = 1fps (DX11)
NV GPU = 100fps (DX11)

Game A with Mantle
AMD GPU = 13fps (Mantle)
NV GPU = 100fps (DX11)

Game A with GameWorks
AMD GPU = 7fps (DX11)
NV GPU = 130fps (GameWorks)

Now NVIDIA "wins"...and AMD loses.
But Mantle gives AMD a 10 x performance over DX11!!!!!!oneoneone!!!!

Can you see how flawed that kind of "logic" is now?

In order to understand the differences between Mantle and Gameworks.

Lets assume we have Game A,
Lets also assume that NV GPU = AMD GPU in performance

Next time read more carefully

This was a paradigm, something to show the difference. It was not about real world benchmark numbers.

edit:

Game A with GameWorks
AMD GPU = 7fps (DX11)
NV GPU = 130fps (GameWorks)

Nice to see a 7x performance gaining in AMD GPUs by implementing GameWorks vs DX11

 

[Lonbjerg]

Next time read more carefully

This was a paradigm, something to show the difference. It was not about real world benchmark numbers.

Still utterly useless...

 

[sontin]

Nice to see a 7x performance gaining in AMD GPUs by implementing GameWorks vs DX11

nVidia said in montreal that Gameworks will not harm the performance of AMD cards.
Their new HBAO+, DoF and Shadowing run as fast as other implementations but look much better - there is a slide showing the performance with the new effects.

Our shadowing and HBAO are fastest now just on GeForce, but also on Radeon. Game devs love it.

http://techreport.com/review/25522/live-blog-from-day-one-of-nvidia-montreal-2013-event

 

[Lonbjerg]

nVidia said in montreal that Gameworks will not harm the performance of AMD cards.
Their new HBAO+, DoF and Shadowing run as fast as other implementations but look much better - there is a slide showing the performance with the new effects.

http://techreport.com/review/25522/live-blog-from-day-one-of-nvidia-montreal-2013-event

Oh noes...NVIDIA developed code running faster on both IHV's...divide by zero....and /end thread.

 

[BFG10K]

Is anybody really surprised by this? I guess Mantle supporters are okay with it as long enough engines use it, and because Microsoft's DirectX is "bad/slow".

Now all we need is Intel to come up with their own API and start throwing money at developers to not use anything else. Then we'll need an AMD board for one game, an nVidia board for another, and Intel onboard for the third.

Welcome back 1990s, we missed you.

 

[NTMBK]

Well, it's not entirely closed. http://www.anandtech.com/show/5238/nvidia-releases-cuda-41-cuda-goes-llvm-and-open-source-kind-of

And can CUDA binaries be run on an AMD or Intel GPU yet? No.

 

[Lonbjerg]

Is anybody really surprised by this? I guess Mantle supporters are okay with it as long enough engines use it, and because Microsoft's DirectX is "bad/slow".

Now all we need is Intel to come up with their own API and start throwing money at developers to not use anything else. Then we'll need an AMD board for one game, an nVidia board for another, and Intel onboard for the third.

Welcome back 1990s, we missed you.

I for one do not miss those days!
It's like people want to make the SAME mistakes once again

 

[jj109]

Is anybody really surprised by this? I guess Mantle supporters are okay with it as long enough engines use it, and because Microsoft's DirectX is "bad/slow".

Now all we need is Intel to come up with their own API and start throwing money at developers to not use anything else. Then we'll need an AMD board for one game, an nVidia board for another, and Intel onboard for the third.

Welcome back 1990s, we missed you.

Intel can't. AMD is going to sue.

 

[Gloomy]

I'm okay with this, because Nvidia's crapware is only released as a tacked-on, easily-disabled afterthought. I'm not sure why everyone is so mad.

It's not like Mantle where we get a completely separate code path that runs much faster. GameWorks is like Physx, just more tickboxes to disable useless performance-crippling sparkle effects that detract from gameplay in the worst case and are totally superfluous in the best case scenario.

 

[Lonbjerg]

I'm okay with this, because Nvidia's crapware is only released as a tacked-on, easily-disabled afterthought. I'm not sure why everyone is so mad.

It's not like Mantle where we get a completely separate code path that runs much faster. GameWorks is like Physx, just more tickboxes to disable useless performance-crippling sparkle effects that detract from gameplay in the worst case and are totally superfluous in the best case scenario.

I didn't know Mantle were out for games and we had performance numbers from review sites yet?
Could you link me to those please?
Or are you just using guesses as "arguments" now?

 

[Shmee]

My understanding was that mantle was going to be open in the sense that future GPUs that were not AMD would be able to support it, so long as they met the feature set. Therefore, future Nvidia GPUs could support it if the Nvidia designers met the requirements.

 

[ShintaiDK]

My understanding was that mantle was going to be open in the sense that future GPUs that were not AMD would be able to support it, so long as they met the feature set. Therefore, future Nvidia GPUs could support it if the Nvidia designers met the requirements.

What happens when the featureset requries AMD IP, even if we imagine for a bit it would be open?

Its simply an attempt to control the API. Had AMD wanted everyone on board, they would have made it open and widespread.

 

[Keysplayr]

Let them all do what they want. Whatever is best will shine through to even the most stubborn thick headed fan of either side. Let the chips fall where they may.

 

[Silverforce11]

AMD fights with Mantle leveraging their console wins.

NV fights back leveraging their $CASH to bribe developers to focus on NV optimization exclusively.

Coming soon, NV logo games will have multiple layers of invisible oceans being tessellated and each water molecule is dynamically simulated with GPU-accelerated PhysX (which defaults to CPU only for AMD cards) just for the heck of it!

Who didn't saw this coming?

 

[DarkKnightDude]

This isn't really surprising. Companies do anything to beat their competition.

 

[ShintaiDK]

AMD fights with Mantle leveraging their console wins.

Where did the consoles come in again?

NV fights back leveraging their $CASH to bribe developers to focus on NV optimization exclusively.

And what do you call Mantle? Also AMD uses same closed libraries for DX.

 

[Keysplayr]

AMD fights with Mantle leveraging their console wins.

NV fights back leveraging their $CASH to bribe developers to focus on NV optimization exclusively.

Coming soon, NV logo games will have multiple layers of invisible oceans being tessellated and each water molecule is dynamically simulated with GPU-accelerated PhysX just for the heck of it!

Who didn't saw this coming?

It's "Who didn't SEE this coming?" and can you show us any evidence that Nvidia is bribing developers? You know as well as I do that Nvidia dedicates actual physical onsite assistance to developers in the form of tech support and coding, but actual money does not change hands. If you have evidence of the latter, then please provide it. Otherwise do not post things like this.