Experts say joblessness not due to skills gap

[Londo_Jowo]

So what you're saying is a kid out of high school should be paid as much or more than an engineer right out of college? Though it does make sense most engineers right out of college don't know squat and need to be trained to do the job they've been hire to perform as well.

 

[theeedude]

My example of the Japanese plants offering $15 to $25 per hour for experienced controls engineers is exactly what you're talking about. You won't find an experienced technician for $25, much less a full blown 5 year engineer, especially with the demand for that position right now.

I'm guessing that the companies are working their people into the dirt to keep up right now while waiting for the jobs to be filled...but they never do.

If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.
Makes you wonder about the quality of products coming out of those plants.
Maybe they bump the pay up for candidates they really like, but don't want to advertise it, because otherwise the current employees would demand raises.

 

[Veliko]

So what you're saying is a kid out of high school should be paid as much or more than an engineer right out of college? Though it does make sense most engineers right out of college don't know squat and need to be trained to do the job they've been hire to perform as well.

I'm saying that if you're struggling to find people to do a job, it means the working conditions and/or the wages aren't good enough.

 

[Engineer]

So what you're saying is a kid out of high school should be paid as much or more than an engineer right out of college? Though it does make sense most engineers right out of college don't know squat and need to be trained to do the job they've been hire to perform as well.

No, he's not saying that. He's saying that there is a labor supply and demand. If the demand is high or the supply is low, you will have to pay more to get what you want unless you increase the supply.

As for engineers out of college, I agree that many don't know anything of real life but you are paying for aptitude and their ability to learn and perform more complex jobs, demonstrated by their ability to successfully complete engineering school.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

So you need to pay them $30/hr plus benefits/training when you have mechanics with 10 years experience making those wages and can fully perform their job.

As for the college grads, keep on believing that graduating gives them special abilities or advantages as from my life experiences I've seen otherwise.

 

[Veliko]

So you need to pay them $30/hr plus benefits/training when you have mechanics with 10 years experience making those wages and can fully perform their job.

Again, if you're struggling to get workers it means the working conditions and/or the wages aren't high enough.

 

[Engineer]

So you need to pay them $30/hr plus benefits/training when you have mechanics with 10 years experience making those wages and can fully perform their job.

As for the college grads, keep on believing that graduating gives them special abilities or advantages as from my life experiences I've seen otherwise.

I never said that they need to be paid anything. If you cannot get workers are the current wages/working conditions, then either you increase the supply of workers (to lower the wage) or you increase the wages (to increase the supply of workers).

I never said anything in general about 'college grads', just 'engineering grads'. You will not take a high school grad and have them designing chipsets @ Intel. They don't have the aptitude for it.

If you've read my posts on this forum, and I know you have, you know that I will take a hard working, self taught skilled trades workers 100 to 1 over many of today's college grads so you're giving grief to the wrong person. You also know that I advocate technical schools to train kids today. Those skills are much closer to real life 'right to the job' skills and not some formulas or theories that will eventually lead to the person figuring it out (if they ever do).

 

[theeedude]

The mentality in the US is that businesses feel entitled to things just for being "job creators." They feel entitled to be subsidized by state and local tax money, and also to be subsidized by their employees by accepting low pay. It simply doesn't connect in their mind that there is a shortage of qualified workers because they aren't offering enough pay for the qualifications they are demanding. Instead they criticize workers for not having the skills at a lower pay scale, or same states and localities from whom they got huge tax credits for not spending enough tax money to educate the workforce to create an abundance of cheap qualified labor for them.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

I never said that they need to be paid anything. If you cannot get workers are the current wages/working conditions, then either you increase the supply of workers (to lower the wage) or you increase the wages (to increase the supply of workers).

I never said anything in general about 'college grads', just 'engineering grads'. You will not take a high school grad and have them designing chipsets @ Intel. They don't have the aptitude for it.

If you've read my posts on this forum, and I know you have, you know that I will take a hard working, self taught skilled trades workers 100 to 1 over many of today's college grads so you're giving grief to the wrong person. You also know that I advocate technical schools to train kids today. Those skills are much closer to real life 'right to the job' skills and not some formulas or theories that will eventually lead to the person figuring it out (if they ever do).

You can increase that wages however, if the candidates quit due to the environment where the equipment in these plants is located or can't meet employment requirements dictated by the federal government/clients/company it really doesn't matter.

As for the last part, you're right I have you confused for someone else when it comes to college education worth.

 

[OverVolt]

If the skills were needed, the employers would likely be paying a wage to attract them. What is more likely is that the labor demand is being filled by people who are willing to live a cheaper lifestyle compared to the American standard. I think Southpark had a great episode about this very topic...

You assume the corporations are competent... you are incorrect 😛

Good thing boeing moved their factories all around and have to ship their plane parts all around to save a dollar! That worked well... nailed it!

http://www.usatoday.com/story/today...lls-boeing-737-fueslages-into-river/12258639/

They were already pushing that factory for max production so its unlikely they'd be able to ramp up production in the short term to complete the planes... whatever.

The Wall Street Journal says the derailment "threatened to throw a wrench in the tightly choreographed and far-flung aerospace supply chain, which depends on just-in-time deliveries of giant parts by train, plane and boat to meet the record demand for jetliners."

 

[OverVolt]

No, the problem is young people want to work in nice offices or air conditioned buildings. After all their Mommy told them they could be anthing they wanted to be. Most young people don't make it to the 90 day mark, many going back to their low paying McJobs. They would rather be in air conditioning making less than $10/hr than working in the environment making $20/hr.

Try $11.02/hr 😛

 

[Strk]

Perhaps I'm missing something here, but ignoring the arguments people are having and focusing on the article, do they actually provide more than a single example? And that example being line work at a manufacturing plant? (doesn't say that's what it is, but considering you're talking a $10/h job, I think it's safe to assume).

Even the amount of jobs versus the amount of openings barely explained. For construction, are we talking day laborers or skilled carpenters?

 

[1prophet]

The mentality in the US is that businesses feel entitled to things just for being "job creators." They feel entitled to be subsidized by state and local tax money, and also to be subsidized by their employees by accepting low pay. It simply doesn't connect in their mind that there is a shortage of qualified workers because they aren't offering enough pay for the qualifications they are demanding. Instead they criticize workers for not having the skills at a lower pay scale, or same states and localities from whom they got huge tax credits for not spending enough tax money to educate the workforce to create an abundance of cheap qualified labor for them.

The mentality in the US is that American workers (including upper management) feel they are entitled to the best pay, working conditions, retirement plans, benefits, etc., but as consumers refuse to reach in their pocket to pay for it believing they are also entitled to the cheapest products and services at someone else's expense.

 

[theeedude]

The mentality in the US is that American workers (including upper management) feel they are entitled to the best pay, working conditions, retirement plans, benefits, etc., but as consumers refuse to reach in their pocket to pay for it believing they are also entitled to the cheapest products and services at someone else's expense.

Upper management is buying Ferraris and Porsches. The problem is they are the only ones who can afford quality stuff. The rest are just barely staying afloat.

 

[Engineer]

The mentality in the US is that American workers (including upper management) feel they are entitled to the best pay, working conditions, retirement plans, benefits, etc., but as consumers refuse to reach in their pocket to pay for it believing they are also entitled to the cheapest products and services at someone else's expense.

The mentality of the US CEO's and Boards of Directors feel that they are entitled to the best workers, cheapest working conditions, lowest pay, lowest to no retirement plans, no health benefits, little to no vacation, no sick time etc. but feel that consumers should buy their products and services, even if they have to go into debt to buy it.

/Flip side of coin.

 

[Engineer]

Perhaps I'm missing something here, but ignoring the arguments people are having and focusing on the article, do they actually provide more than a single example? And that example being line work at a manufacturing plant? (doesn't say that's what it is, but considering you're talking a $10/h job, I think it's safe to assume).

Even the amount of jobs versus the amount of openings barely explained. For construction, are we talking day laborers or skilled carpenters?

Skilled jobs in manufacturing plants typically don't equal production and pay much more than $10/h plus good benefits. Maintenance starts at $18 in many places and senior maintenance can go to over $30 plus benefits PLUS overtime. Technicians can do the same.

 

[shortylickens]

The mentality in the US is that American workers (including upper management) feel they are entitled to the best pay, working conditions, retirement plans, benefits, etc., but as consumers refuse to reach in their pocket to pay for it believing they are also entitled to the cheapest products and services at someone else's expense.

Yup, thats the real issue.

The public complains about Walmarts shitty practices but they're the ones who went to Walmart in droves to get rock bottom prices. Well how the hell do you think they make their business function when they are selling at rock bottom prices?

We're doing it to ourselves, all 300 million of us. But its way too easy to focus on the president or congress or American CEO's cuz a handful of scapegoats are easier to track than millions of sheep.
Those are the guys who are trying to make the big picture work and they're getting blamed for it.

 

[Engineer]

Those are the guys who are trying to make the big picture work and they're getting blamed for it.

Bullshit....these guys are trying to get what they can in the short term....long term be damned.

 

[pippenainteasy]

The proposal to expand H1Bs to 180,000 a year isn't helping either. With the economy adding (generously) maybe 200,000 jobs a month, that would be nearly 10% our jobs allocated to non-immigrant visas.

I say generously since we added 800k part-time jobs, and lost 500k full time jobs during June, so in a field of dwindling full-time jobs we are proposing to pump the market with even more labor.

 

[Engineer]

The proposal to expand H1Bs to 180,000 a year isn't helping either. With the economy adding (generously) maybe 200,000 jobs a month, that would be nearly 10% our jobs allocated to non-immigrant visas.

I say generously since we added 800k part-time jobs, and lost 500k full time jobs during June, so in a field of dwindling full-time jobs we are proposing to pump the market with even more labor.

Ah, now you've done it. You're going to piss off the resident (mostly conservative) crowd that really wants to bring in the "world's best" and will swear that the companies are not doing it for savings, but rather a lack of talent. Be prepared to be horse whipped.....

 

[Exterous]

Most young people don't make it to the 90 day mark, many going back to their low paying McJobs. They would rather be in air conditioning making less than $10/hr than working in the environment making $20/hr.

:thumbsup:

If so few people are willing to do the job then it means the conditions and wages aren't good enough.

Broadly speaking that's true but in the way that 'the stock market always goes up' or 'the market prices risk' is true. That doesn't preclude periods of dips related to various issues like irrationality that can last years. Or you could have general expectations of conditions\wages is higher than the market can support or is reasonable. Its been my experience (that I have shared before) that unreasonable expectations regarding the level of effort (or lack thereof) has increased. Relatively speaking we have increased our wages and benefit offerings above where they were in 2005 yet we are having a harder time finding capable employees. This is the same job paying more while pulling from a larger pool of workers. Something is off and its not the salary\benefits.

A friend of mine and I were discussing the woes of trying to find good employees over lunch last week. They have a position open for a plumber with NO experience requiring only a GED\HS diploma starting at $14/hr for your first 90 days and an up to $2hr/ hour raise after that. FREE health vision and dental are included for the employees' entire family. Also includes profit sharing, frequent over time opportunities, flexible holdiays, triple overtime for holidays, on-call bonuses ($30 for each call\visit they take after hours + hourly wage + overtime (if applicable)).

Yet there they have still had a rash of new hires quit or just stop showing up to work for a fucking gem of a job. One guy quit because the 'hours were too long'. He had worked 44 hours that week. Another quit because the 'job was too dirty'. Another because 'he didn't like going into people's houses' and 'having to interact' with them.

 

[Newell Steamer]

"Every time you hear someone say 'I can't find the workers I need,' add the phrase 'at the wage I want to pay'," said Heidi Shierholz, an economist for the Economic Policy Institute, a Washington, D.C., economic research organization.

Yeah, the slave labor market just isn't that appealing in the modern world to the working masses. Who knew?

 

[realibrad]

You assume the corporations are competent... you are incorrect 😛

Good thing boeing moved their factories all around and have to ship their plane parts all around to save a dollar! That worked well... nailed it!

http://www.usatoday.com/story/today...lls-boeing-737-fueslages-into-river/12258639/

They were already pushing that factory for max production so its unlikely they'd be able to ramp up production in the short term to complete the planes... whatever.

To be fair, they created a supply chain to mitigate other things, not just cost. Companies make mistakes no doubt, but typically they make more right than wrong. If a company did more wrong than right, they should go bankrupt. If that dont thats a separate issue.

It only takes 1 company to make the right decision to make the others follow.

 

[realibrad]

The proposal to expand H1Bs to 180,000 a year isn't helping either. With the economy adding (generously) maybe 200,000 jobs a month, that would be nearly 10% our jobs allocated to non-immigrant visas.

I say generously since we added 800k part-time jobs, and lost 500k full time jobs during June, so in a field of dwindling full-time jobs we are proposing to pump the market with even more labor.

The reason the US has the worlds largest economy is not because we are isolationist. China has 4.5X the population and the US has an economy that is almost twice as big. The reason the US is so far ahead is because we are the center of innovation. The top of everything used to flock to the US because it was the place you wanted to be to do anything. Imagine a world where we did not let in German physics to save American Jobs.

 

[Veliko]

Broadly speaking that's true but in the way that 'the stock market always goes up' or 'the market prices risk' is true. That doesn't preclude periods of dips related to various issues like irrationality that can last years. Or you could have general expectations of conditions\wages is higher than the market can support or is reasonable. Its been my experience (that I have shared before) that unreasonable expectations regarding the level of effort (or lack thereof) has increased. Relatively speaking we have increased our wages and benefit offerings above where they were in 2005 yet we are having a harder time finding capable employees. This is the same job paying more while pulling from a larger pool of workers. Something is off and its not the salary\benefits.

A friend of mine and I were discussing the woes of trying to find good employees over lunch last week. They have a position open for a plumber with NO experience requiring only a GED\HS diploma starting at $14/hr for your first 90 days and an up to $2hr/ hour raise after that. FREE health vision and dental are included for the employees' entire family. Also includes profit sharing, frequent over time opportunities, flexible holdiays, triple overtime for holidays, on-call bonuses ($30 for each call\visit they take after hours + hourly wage + overtime (if applicable)).

Yet there they have still had a rash of new hires quit or just stop showing up to work for a fucking gem of a job. One guy quit because the 'hours were too long'. He had worked 44 hours that week. Another quit because the 'job was too dirty'. Another because 'he didn't like going into people's houses' and 'having to interact' with them.

Maybe it isn't a 'gem of a job' like you seem to think it is. Maybe the management is crap.