Existence of the "historical Jesus" increasingly questioned by scholars

[Texashiker]

If your argument that jesus has enough evidence to confirm his life as portrayed in the bible, than you must accept other religious figures from other faiths that have similar evidence and extraordinary claims. When you figure our why you dismiss dionysus or Sai Baba , you'll understand why the story of jesus doesn't hold water. You simply picked one, or were indoctrinated to believe in one, there is nothing special about christianity, just another faith that makes extraordinary claims but is unable to back them up.

Even if there were first hand witnesses, video, pictures, live broadcast on TV,,, etc. people still would not believe.

 

[Annisman*]

Even if there were first hand witnesses, video, pictures, live broadcast on TV,,, etc. people still would not believe.

This ^

I often wondered what if any difference there would have been if Jesus had come in 'this day and age' and I am convinced there would be very little difference. There will always be excuses, there will always be ways out of having to believe for those who don't want to.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

The teachings of Christ provide a path for humanity to advance. Only by lifting each other up are we all able to improve the quality of our life and that of future generations.

Sure people do good works "just because."

As for doing good works for an internal reward, that is wrong. You can do good works without faith in Christ.

If one wants salvation that is through faith.

Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV



Faith and works are two different things.

You are a resoundingly obtuse dipshit. Nothing more, nothing less.
Dip
Shit

 

[Texashiker]

You are a resoundingly obtuse dipshit. Nothing more, nothing less.
Dip
Shit

Thank you.

Take your pick:

Unbridled greed such as wall street. Steve Jobs, one of the richest men in the world, there is no record of him donating money to the needy. Denied his own daughter. Let his daughter live in poverty while he reaped in massive amounts of money.

Peace, love and charity through the teachings of Christ.

 

[SlowSpyder]

I understand that you would want to ask questions, killing your own child is a pretty big deal. However, the answers would be irrelevant, God is commanding you to kill your child. He is the basis for your morality, if he commands you to do it then it is moral.

So you ask your questions, he answers, do you then kill your child?

This is why I say religion warps morals. Only with god can sacrificing your child be moral and just. Sick, really.

Even if there were first hand witnesses, video, pictures, live broadcast on TV,,, etc. people still would not believe.

You're changing the subject. You are willing to accept the story of jesus as it is portrayed in the bible based on very, very little evidence. But you dismiss other deities and holy men that have as much reason to believe in them as jesus. You accept that jesus died and rose from the dead, but reject the many other deities that have had very similar stories and similar amounts of evidence, plenty of them predating christianity. If there is enough evidence for jesus, I don't understand how you can deny the others.

 

[Retro Rob]

However, the answers would be irrelevant, God is commanding you to kill your child.

The answer isn't irrelevant because the answer is the basis of the request.

He is the basis for your morality, if he commands you to do it then it is moral.

So you ask your questions, he answers, do you then kill your child?

EDIT: NVM...

 

[alkemyst]

You edited your post Retro Rob.

I can GUARANTEE if some OMNIPRESENT/POTENT being told you to do something you'd definitely comply. This is not some dude off the street saying "Hey, can you kill your first born for me, bro?"

You'd also have no idea even based on history if you'd be forced to do it or he'd spare you at the last minute.

 

[JD50]

The answer isn't irrelevant because the answer is the basis of the request.






EDIT: NVM...

Ok, the answers to your questions should have no bearing on the outcome though. If God commands you to do something, and he is the basis for your morality, then you do it and it is moral.

This should be a very easy question for you to answer if you really do believe what you say you do.

 

[alzan]

The answer isn't irrelevant because the answer is the basis of the request.

EDIT: NVM...

Serious question: Is your wife onboard with this "G-d told me to sacrifice our child as a burnt offering so pack me a lunch please." potential circumstance?

 

[SlowSpyder]

You edited your post Retro Rob.

I can GUARANTEE if some OMNIPRESENT/POTENT being told you to do something you'd definitely comply. This is not some dude off the street saying "Hey, can you kill your first born for me, bro?"

You'd also have no idea even based on history if you'd be forced to do it or he'd spare you at the last minute.

There's nothing in this universe that would make willfully and purposely kill my child. If god showed up and requested that of me I'd tell him to fuck off and deal with the consequences.

If an absolute knowing and omnipotent god created me with the personality traits I have, knowing how I - his creation - would respond to such a request, and would send me to hell for not killing my son, I'd say that god is quite the sadomasochist.

 

[alkemyst]

There's nothing in this universe that would make willfully and purposely kill my child. If god showed up and requested that of me I'd tell him to fuck off and deal with the consequences.

If an absolute knowing and omnipotent god created me with the personality traits I have, knowing how I - his creation - would respond to such a request, and would send me to hell for not killing my son, I'd say that god is quite the sadomasochist.

If that God started plucking off your loved ones and relatives, how long until you broke? You realize such a being could inflict the most pain known to man and just keep you alive.

You would break like a piece of glass on a concrete floor.

I doubt most here could even stand up to a street thug without breaking.

 

[SlowSpyder]

If that God started plucking off your loved ones and relatives, how long until you broke? You realize such a being could inflict the most pain known to man and just keep you alive.

You would break like a piece of glass on a concrete floor.

I doubt most here could even stand up to a street thug without breaking.

Let's not start with the tough guy stuff. You have no idea what my life experiences are. I don't think going this direction will add anything to the thread.

 

[alkemyst]

Let's not start with the tough guy stuff. You have no idea what my life experiences are. I don't think going this direction will add anything to the thread.

LOL bro, you are the tough guy claiming you can stand up to a FREAKING GOD!

You'd snap on the street if some gangbanger came up alone and asked for your wallet even.

 

[Exophase]

A theory I have is that GOD gave different groups of people slightly different versions of himself to follow.

Christians, jews, islam, hindus, sikh.... etc, all point back to the same GOD.

You think that Christianity and Hinduism point to "slightly different versions" of the same God? Have you studied Hinduism like, at all?

Radical islam is not the same GOD that Jesus and Moses represented.

The God Moses represented is the one that killed all first born Egyptian males to get back at Pharoah at letting God harden his heart. Among other terrible disasters.

I like the part in Exodus where Moses has to persuade God to not kill off the Israelites, only to end up seething in anger himself and having 3000 of them killed for worshiping a golden calf.

Such good works, much love and compassion.

 

[SlowSpyder]

LOL bro, you are the tough guy claiming you can stand up to a FREAKING GOD!

You'd snap on the street if some gangbanger came up alone and asked for your wallet even.

Yea, if jesus showed up and told me to kill my kid, I'd slap the snot out of him and nail his ass to a 2x4. After all, I hear he can take multiple 9" pricks at once. And I'd tell him his mom is a lying hooker for good measure.

See... I can bait too.

 

[Exophase]

Optimally, God could have ended it all, but at what price? Among humans, we both know change is a slow process. They only way God would have gotten rid of slavery was to either (1) force them to do it, which would have been in violation of mans free-will, or (2) killed everyone holding slaves because of our tendency to make slow and often obstinate change, which would have been forced and not out of love for our fellow man.

Perhaps God could have 3) told people to knock it off, like he allegedly did for so many other things? You'd think "stop buying slaves" could have made it next to things like "don't eat fat" or "don't let your hair become unkempt."

The mental gymnastics here are a sight to behold. Here's the real explanation: the Bible gives provisions for buying foreigners as slaves because the people who wrote that book didn't have a problem with it and God wasn't actually asked to proof read it.

 

[alkemyst]

Yea, if jesus showed up and told me to kill my kid, I'd slap the snot out of him and nail his ass to a 2x4. After all, I hear he can take multiple 9" pricks at once. And I'd tell him his mom is a lying hooker for good measure.

See... I can bait too.

See the problem is you think one is baiting you when they are not.

Now you just responded in an absurd manor.

There is no WAY that you'd win a face-off with a GOD.

 

[alkemyst]

Perhaps God could have 3) told people to knock it off, like he allegedly did for so many other things? You'd think "stop buying slaves" could have made it next to things like "don't eat fat" or "don't let your hair become unkempt."

The mental gymnastics here are a sight to behold. Here's the real explanation: the Bible gives provisions for buying foreigners as slaves because the people who wrote that book didn't have a problem with it and God wasn't actually asked to proof read it.

Retro Rob is forgetting that God according to the story (which I am not sure why this has turned from Jesus as simply a historical figure to a full out religious war), already wiped almost all mankind off the planet with the Great Flood.

 

[bshole]

Yea, if jesus showed up and told me to kill my kid, I'd slap the snot out of him and nail his ass to a 2x4. After all, I hear he can take multiple 9" pricks at once. And I'd tell him his mom is a lying hooker for good measure.

See... I can bait too.

I heard only masters can bait. Are you a master?

 

[hal2kilo]

Always amazes me as to what subjects generate the most traffic on this forum. So in fact, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

 

[SlowSpyder]

See the problem is you think one is baiting you when they are not.

Now you just responded in an absurd manor.

There is no WAY that you'd win a face-off with a GOD.

I dunno. I defy him pretty regularly without consequence. He's put down plenty of rules that I laugh at and ignore (as do many of the faithful, it would seem). If he told me to kill my kid, not sure why I wouldn't just laugh at his ridiculously stupid command and ignore him yet again.

 

[Exophase]

Retro Rob is forgetting that God according to the story (which I am not sure why this has turned from Jesus as simply a historical figure to a full out religious war), already wiped almost all mankind off the planet with the Great Flood.

That's a good point. There have been several other Biblical genocides too - none quite as extreme as the flood, but having all slave owners drop dead wouldn't have been that out of place. Not that it would have been the greatest way to go about it. IMO.

As for why this thread turned into a "religious war", well, this isn't the first time a thread was started over someone doubting a historical Jesus. And the last one was probably not the first one either. I don't see any new arguments or evidence being brought up for either side, and when you get down to it there isn't really that much to go around despite being such a popular topic of inquiry. The pro argument boils down to commentary by Tacitus and Josephus several decades after the time of Christ's supposed ministry, and the against argument boils down to a total lack of contemporary commentary. That's pretty much all there is to it.

What you will inevitably get is someone moralizing the argument, claiming that people deny historical details of Christ solely because they hate the Christian message. And then straw man propositions are injected like how those people wouldn't believe Christ existed regardless of how good the evidence is. Or how all standards of ethics would fall apart without Christianity or other religions that allegedly espouse the same message. After these lines are drawn the usual religious apology and skepticism is more or less unavoidable.

 

[IronWing]

See the problem is you think one is baiting you when they are not.

Now you just responded in an absurd manor.

There is no WAY that you'd win a face-off with a GOD.

Of course he would. So would you. Gods are human constructs and subject to anything we care to throw at them. You yell "Dance!" and your god best be shaking it's groove thang.

 

[alzan]

Of course he would. So would you. Gods are human constructs and subject to anything we care to throw at them. You yell "Dance!" and your god best be shaking it's groove thang.

Mine's a 98 lb. weakling; I can kick sand in his face all day long and twice on Sundays

 

[CLite]

Always amazes me as to what subjects generate the most traffic on this forum. So in fact, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Trick question, dancing sends you to hell (according to interpretation 23,200,819 of the bible).