Existence of the "historical Jesus" increasingly questioned by scholars

[Jaskalas]

Existence of the "historical Jesus" increasingly questioned by scholars

Jesus is an idea, not a man. The ideal of pacifism even to the point of one's own horrific torture and death. The selfless giving and love.

It's the idea that holds meaning, forget the messenger.

 

[cabri]

Jesus is an idea, not a man. The ideal of pacifism even to the point of one's own horrific torture and death. The selfless giving and love.

It's the idea that holds meaning, forget the messenger.

that may be; however, there is a complete religion/society based around the concept of a man.

Everything would have to be re-evaluated/reworked and flaws admitted if Jesus was determined to be a concept.

Look how bad the uproar was over the DaVinci code - a book of fiction.
The Catholic community was foaming at the mouth trying to disavow the book.

 

[Jaskalas]

Everything would have to be re-evaluated/reworked and flaws admitted if Jesus was determined to be a concept.

Determined? You missed the point. If he is real or not should be irrelevant. Efforts to make claims discarded.

I recognize there are people... invested... in the notion of him being real, but the message is all that matters. If they twist that into something used to harm others, then they are false and betray the teachings.

 

[dphantom]

Determined? You missed the point. If he is real or not should be irrelevant. Efforts to make claims discarded.

I recognize there are people... invested... in the notion of him being real, but the message is all that matters. If they twist that into something used to harm others, then they are false and betray the teachings.

No, the message is not all that matters. The message is very important, but the actuality of Jesus is crucial to Christianity. He did exist, died for us and was raised three days later.

 

[Thebobo]

No, the message is not all that matters. The message is very important, but the actuality of Jesus is crucial to Christianity. He did exist, died for us and was raised three days later.

"Jesus’ Divinity was Invented by Constantine at the Council of Nicea until that moment in history, Jesus was viewed by His followers as a mortal prophet"

 

[JD50]

Jesus is an idea, not a man. The ideal of pacifism even to the point of one's own horrific torture and death. The selfless giving and love.

It's the idea that holds meaning, forget the messenger.

I don't think anyone is really arguing against that idea, that's a strawman used by TH because he refuses answer the tough questions.

 

[cabri]

"Jesus’ Divinity was Invented by Constantine at the Council of Nicea until that moment in history, Jesus was viewed by His followers as a mortal prophet"

The concept of Christianity and especially the Roman Catholic church is built on this foundation.

If this becomes a base of clay; the complete concept becomes shattered.
Those with a vested interest in the status quo can not allow such to happen. They will deny and attempt to discredit.

 

[alzan]

No, the message is not all that matters. The message is very important, but the actuality of Jesus is crucial to Christianity. He did exist, died for us and was raised three days later.

That's the issue that's being discussed. Jaskalas hit the nail on the head (pun unintended); ultimately the message is all that matters. Losing one's self in the issue of whether or not he actually existed and was actually G-d incarnate detracts from the message.

 

[Moonbeam]

The concept of Christianity and especially the Roman Catholic church is built on this foundation.

If this becomes a base of clay; the complete concept becomes shattered.
Those with a vested interest in the status quo can not allow such to happen. They will deny and attempt to discredit.

The denial and attempt to discredit, ignore, basically, the notion that Jesus was 'merely' prophet makes the slightest bit of difference to the fact that Christianity is a bridge to reality, is already happening with folk like you. You see only the surface and are affected by superficial things.

Some fools argue that Beyer is the best aspirin while others swear by generic.

But you have to take it to get its proper effect.

 

[dphantom]

"Jesus’ Divinity was Invented by Constantine at the Council of Nicea until that moment in history, Jesus was viewed by His followers as a mortal prophet"

No. The Council of Nicea was formed to resolve conflict within the Church. One conflict was the nature of Jesus. In the end Arianism (the view that Christ was more than human but not fully divine) was rejected.


"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible:

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten of the Father, that is of the substance of the Father; God of God, Light of light, true God of true God; begotten not made, consubstantial with the Father; by whom all things were made both which are in heaven and on earth; who for the sake of us men, and on account of our salvation, descended, became incarnate, was made man, suffered and rose again on the third day; he ascended into the heavens, and will come to judge the living and the dead.

[We believe] also in the Holy Spirit."

 

[soccerballtux]

"Jesus’ Divinity was Invented by Constantine at the Council of Nicea until that moment in history, Jesus was viewed by His followers as a mortal prophet"

lol

 

[soccerballtux]

No. The Council of Nicea was formed to resolve conflict within the Church. One conflict was the nature of Jesus. In the end Arianism (the view that Christ was more than human but not fully divine) was rejected.


"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible:

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten of the Father, that is of the substance of the Father; God of God, Light of light, true God of true God; begotten not made, consubstantial with the Father; by whom all things were made both which are in heaven and on earth; who for the sake of us men, and on account of our salvation, descended, became incarnate, was made man, suffered and rose again on the third day; he ascended into the heavens, and will come to judge the living and the dead.

[We believe] also in the Holy Spirit."

people will lie about anything to make themselves comfortable with the theory idea there is no Jesus

this is an extreme fringe of the historical community. No scholar anybody bothers listening to actually believes this.

 

[soccerballtux]

I think it could. There is a difference between believing in a higher power and believing in a god who would ask you to murder your own child.

Do you have enough faith in god to sacrifice your child? You will have no idea what his intentions are. He tells you to kill your son or daughter. Do you do it?

To me it's an easy question. No god of mine would ever ask such a sick thing.

Your god sounds small and he's not really your god if you subject him to your own intellect, he's just someone there to back up your preferences

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Your god sounds small and he's not really your god if you subject him to your own intellect, he's just someone there to back up your preferences

I don't know if I've witnessed as clear an example of projection in a long, long time.

 

[doubledeluxe]

lol

I feel sorry for you

 

[Moonbeam]

lol

I feel sorry for you

You shouldn't. He has a much better delusion than you do.

 

[doubledeluxe]

To my knowledge I have never had an imaginary friend that would tell me to kill my children. I had a blankie when I was 1 but I grew up.

 

[IronWing]

Jesus is an idea, not a man. The ideal of pacifism even to the point of one's own horrific torture and death. The selfless giving and love.

It's the idea that holds meaning, forget the messenger.

I understand your position but, no, Jesus as God incarnate is the central mystery of Christianity. No incarnate God = no Christianity.

 

[Moonbeam]

To my knowledge I have never had an imaginary friend that would tell me to kill my children. I had a blankie when I was 1 but I grew up.

You didn't grow up. You became what you were told was grown up behavior. You traded one blankie for another, and not a very good one at that. Why do you suppose you ever had a blankie. Do you think you would have been better off as a child in a constant state of terror? You escaped your terror one way and he another. Your way just wasn't as good. I wouldn't suggest he let go of his delusions if you can't offer something better.

 

[Moonbeam]

I understand your position but, no, Jesus as God incarnate is the central mystery of Christianity. No incarnate God = no Christianity.

That can't be right. If Jesus weren't the Son of God, and who can know for sure, we have still had Christianity for sever thousand years.

 

[doubledeluxe]

You didn't grow up. You became what you were told was grown up behavior. You traded one blankie for another, and not a very good one at that. Why do you suppose you ever had a blankie. Do you think you would have been better off as a child in a constant state of terror? You escaped your terror one way and he another. Your way just wasn't as good. I wouldn't suggest he let go of his delusions if you can't offer something better.

Pass that shit down here son. I want a hit.

 

[Darwin333]

One of the problems facing rural America is not enough people live in the areas, and so few people have insurance, for-profit hospitals can not stay open.

Religious based charity hospitals play an important role in providing care to the under-served.

Go ahead and destroy Christ, convince people he never existed. Who is going to serve those rural poor areas?

Here in Jasper Texas we had two hospitals, one closed and the other is ran by Christus health.

A number of companies looked at buying the closed hospital with plans to reopen it. When the economics of the area was looked at, every potential customer decided not to buy the hospital.

Where are your atheist / non-believing organizations who are chomping at the bit to provide services to poor people? Please tell them rural America needs more hospitals and specialist.

I donate my time and money to various organizations, including some religious based ones. First of all, are you saying that the only reason there is charity is because of religion? That without it you would be an asshole who couldn't give two fucks about helping your fellow man?

Besides, the Church could sell a painting or two and open a hundred more centers/hospitals/soup kitchens. I wonder if Christ would keep things that have that great of value instead of using the proceeds to help the poor?

What do we have to gain by "proving" Christ never existed? Nothing. We have nothing to gain.

We would have gained intelligence and information.

What do we have to lose? We stand to lose a lot. We stand to lose a lot of good works done in his name.

Religions have come and gone since humans started inventing them a very long time ago and we're still here...

 

[Darwin333]

This ^

I often wondered what if any difference there would have been if Jesus had come in 'this day and age' and I am convinced there would be very little difference. There will always be excuses, there will always be ways out of having to believe for those who don't want to.

If JC came down from heaven and came over to my house and then proceeded to turn this little bag of shake I have on my desk, a pound of the stickiest most heavenly weed ever, preferably from across the room so I can automatically discount magic tricks, you can bet your ass I'll be at church every Sunday. I'm not a big wine drinker but water to vodka or bourbon would be a huge bonus. If he gives me a heads up before he comes I'll have a bunch of huge barrels waiting and already filled with water.

If he wanted to swing by on a weekly basis or so I'd even spread the good word using the holy weed and booze, which I suspect would be way more effective at getting young people back into the church than yalls current attempts.

 

[Darwin333]

Thank you.

Take your pick:

Unbridled greed such as wall street. Steve Jobs, one of the richest men in the world, there is no record of him donating money to the needy. Denied his own daughter. Let his daughter live in poverty while he reaped in massive amounts of money.

Peace, love and charity through the teachings of Christ.

We already have unbridled greed which means yall have failed. You had 2,000 years and you just couldn't get it done so I think we'd be better off with more educated people, who would be better equipped to not get ripped off by said greedy assholes, instead of superstitious people that rely on some magic fairy they've never seen to protect them.

 

[Darwin333]

Let's not start with the tough guy stuff. You have no idea what my life experiences are. I don't think going this direction will add anything to the thread.

He does have a point though. While I'm not discounting your life experiences we are talking about an all powerful being that created the entire universe. We are talking "other worldly" pain that no one could possibly even comprehend. Hell being all powerful he should be able to quite literally take over your body and "make" you do it against your will.

Luckily for us that isn't going to happen since the god we are talking about is just one in a long line of either extinct, or will very likely eventually be extinct (and unfortunately probably replaced) gods, just playing along with the mental game.