Existence of the "historical Jesus" increasingly questioned by scholars

shira

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Jan 12, 2005
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Even though I'm an agnostic atheist, I've been of the opinion that there was an actual person (whether his actual name was "Jesus" or something else) upon which Christianity is based. The prevalent theory among secular historians is that this actual person was the 1st century rabbi Yeshua ben Yosef, and that many of the stories surrounding his life are in fact myths which were built up over the centuries following his death. But this article points out that the very existence of a historical Jesus is increasingly being questioned by serious scholars. That's not to say this has become the majority view - far from it, but the fact is that the consensus that a historical Jesus actually existed is weakening.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/08/did-jesus-exist-growing-number-of-scholars-dont-think-so/

The arguments on both sides of this question—mythologized history or historicized mythology—fill volumes, and if anything the debate seems to be heating up rather than resolving. A growing number of scholars are openly questioning or actively arguing against Jesus’ historicity. Since many people, both Christian and not, find it surprising that this debate even exists—that credible scholars might think Jesus never existed—here are some of the key points that keep the doubts alive:

1. No first century secular evidence whatsoever exists to support the actuality of Yeshua ben Yosef. In the words of Bart Ehrman (who himself thinks the Jesus stories were built on a historical kernel): “What sorts of things do pagan authors from the time of Jesus have to say about him? Nothing. As odd as it may seem, there is no mention of Jesus at all by any of his pagan contemporaries. There are no birth records, no trial transcripts, no death certificates; there are no expressions of interest, no heated slanders, no passing references – nothing. In fact, if we broaden our field of concern to the years after his death – even if we include the entire first century of the Common Era – there is not so much as a solitary reference to Jesus in any non-Christian, non-Jewish source of any kind. I should stress that we do have a large number of documents from the time – the writings of poets, philosophers, historians, scientists, and government officials, for example, not to mention the large collection of surviving inscriptions on stone and private letters and legal documents on papyrus. In none of this vast array of surviving writings is Jesus’ name ever so much as mentioned.” (pp. 56-57)

2. The earliest New Testament writers seem ignorant of the details of Jesus’ life, which become more crystalized in later texts. Paul seems unaware of any virgin birth, for example. No wise men, no star in the east, no miracles. Historians have long puzzled over the “Silence of Paul” on the most basic biographical facts and teachings of Jesus. Paul fails to cite Jesus’ authority precisely when it would make his case. What’s more, he never calls the twelve apostles Jesus’ disciples; in fact, he never says Jesus HAD disciples –or a ministry, or did miracles, or gave teachings. He virtually refuses to disclose any other biographical detail, and the few cryptic hints he offers aren’t just vague, but contradict the gospels. The leaders of the early Christian movement in Jerusalem like Peter and James are supposedly Jesus’ own followers and family; but Paul dismisses them as nobodies and repeatedly opposes them for not being true Christians!

Liberal theologian Marcus Borg suggests that people read the books of the New Testament in chronological order to see how early Christianity unfolded. “Placing the Gospels after Paul makes it clear that as written documents they are not the source of early Christianity but its product. The Gospel — the good news — of and about Jesus existed before the Gospels. They are the products of early Christian communities several decades after Jesus’ historical life and tell us how those communities saw his significance in their historical context.”

3. Even the New Testament stories don’t claim to be first-hand accounts. We now know that the four gospels were assigned the names of the apostles Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, not written by them. To make matter sketchier, the name designations happened sometime in second century, around 100 years or more after Christianity supposedly began. For a variety of reasons, the practice of pseudonymous writing was common at the time and many contemporary documents are “signed” by famous figures. The same is true of the New Testament epistles except for a handful of letters from Paul (6 out of 13) which are broadly thought to be genuine. But even the gospel stories don’t actually say, “I was there.” Rather, they claim the existence of other witnesses, a phenomenon familiar to anyone who has heard the phrase, my aunt knew someone who . . . .

4. The gospels, our only accounts of a historical Jesus, contradict each other. If you think you know the Jesus story pretty well, I suggest that you pause at this point to test yourself with the 20 question quiz at ExChristian.net.

The gospel of Mark is thought to be the earliest existing “life of Jesus,” and linguistic analysis suggests that Luke and Matthew both simply reworked Mark and added their own corrections and new material. But they contradict each other and, to an even greater degree contradict the much later gospel of John, because they were written with different objectives for different audiences. The incompatible Easter stories offer one example of how much the stories disagree.

5. Modern scholars who claim to have uncovered the real historical Jesus depict wildly different persons. They include a cynic philosopher, charismatic Hasid, liberal Pharisee, conservative rabbi, Zealot revolutionary, nonviolent pacifist to borrow from a much longer list assembled by Price. In his words (pp. 15-16), “The historical Jesus (if there was one) might well have been a messianic king, or a progressive Pharisee, or a Galilean shaman, or a magus, or a Hellenistic sage. But he cannot very well have been all of them at the same time.” John Dominic Crossan of the Jesus Seminar grumbles that “the stunning diversity is an academic embarrassment.”

For David Fitzgerald, these issues and more lead to a conclusion that he finds inescapable:

Jesus appears to be an effect, not a cause, of Christianity. Paul and the rest of the first generation of Christians searched the Septuagint translation of Hebrew scriptures to create a Mystery Faith for the Jews, complete with pagan rituals like a Lord’s Supper, Gnostic terms in his letters, and a personal savior god to rival those in their neighbors’ longstanding Egyptian, Persian, Hellenistic and Roman traditions.

In a soon-to-be-released follow up to Nailed, entitled Jesus: Mything in Action, Fitzgerald argues that the many competing versions proposed by secular scholars are just as problematic as any “Jesus of Faith:” Even if one accepts that there was a real Jesus of Nazareth, the question has little practical meaning: Regardless of whether or not a first century rabbi called Yeshua ben Yosef lived, the “historical Jesus” figures so patiently excavated and re-assembled by secular scholars are themselves fictions.

We may never know for certain what put Christian history in motion. Only time (or perhaps time travel) will tell.
 

stormkroe

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Thanks for the info, there's quite a bit to go through. I just grabbed this
3. Even the New Testament stories don’t claim to be first-hand accounts. We now know that the four gospels were assigned the names of the apostles Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, not written by them. To make matter sketchier, the name designations happened sometime in second century, around 100 years or more after Christianity supposedly began.
That's a bold statement to make without quite a bit of material to back up, bold enough that it would rock the evangelical Church quite a bit if it were substantiated.
If the discussion can stay civil, I look forward to it. If a Faith withstands criticism like this, it is strengthened. If not, then it was wrong and justly condemned.
 

stormkroe

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May 28, 2011
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Also, after feeling a familiarity with some of these arguements, I did a little digging and sure enough, ties to the jesus siminar guys.
I guess my recommendation is to look into as much of this as you have patience for, but it's honestly it's very amatuer stuff at best, and in no way representative of 'serious scholars' as a whole. Here's a rebuff from a non Christian if you're interested.
http://armariummagnus.blogspot.ca/2013/12/the-jesus-myth-theory-reponse-to-david.html?m=1
 

shira

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Jan 12, 2005
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Thanks for the info, there's quite a bit to go through. I just grabbed this

That's a bold statement to make without quite a bit of material to back up, bold enough that it would rock the evangelical Church quite a bit if it were substantiated.
If the discussion can stay civil, I look forward to it. If a Faith withstands criticism like this, it is strengthened. If not, then it was wrong and justly condemned.

This website appears to have reliable information related to your question:

http://thechurchoftruth.wordpress.com/synoptic-gospels-not-writen-by-matt-mark-luke-or-john/

Even though the Gospels go under the names of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, they were, in fact, written anonymously. These names first appeared in the second century and were assigned to the anonymous writings to give the writings apostolic authority. The Gospel of Mark was written before any of the other canonical gospels and was written after the fall of the second temple which occurred in 70 CE.

The Gospel of Mark is the most important of the synoptic gospels because it is the primary source for Matthew and Luke. Seventy six percent of Mark is reproduced almost word-for-word in both Matthew and Luke. An additional 18% of Mark is reproduced in Matthew but not in Luke, and an further 3% of Mark is in Luke but not in Matthew. This means that 97% of Mark is reproduced in Matthew and/or Luke.

Matthew contains 606 of Mark’s 661 verses. Luke contains 320 of Mark’s 661 verses. Of the 55 verses of Mark which Matthew does not reproduce, Luke reproduces 31; therefore there are only 24 verses in all of Mark not reproduced somewhere in Matthew or Luke.

An excellent presentation of who wrote the Gospels presented by a died-in-the-wool-true-believer is presented here: “Who Wrote The Synoptic Gospels“. The diagram below is lifted from his writings.

Not even the Bible claims that Mark was an eye witness to Jesus’ ministry. Modern, non Christian biblical scholars believe that the gospel of Mark was written in Syria by an unknown Christian no earlier than AD 70, using various sources including a passion narrative (probably written), collections of miracles stories (oral or written), apocalyptic traditions (probably written), and disputations and didactic sayings (some possibly written). These stories were in circulation year after year, told in different languages and in different countries from that of Jesus.

That’s it. The source for the gospel of Mark is other peoples’ stories and writings. In other words, all of Mark’s sources were at best, second hand, more likely fifth or sixth hand. What happens to stories that circulate orally for years? Obviously, they come to be changed in the retelling. Thus, the source for much of the synoptic gospels is no more than hearsay.

Apologists dismiss the charge of “hearsay” by pointing to the strength of the “oral tradition”. The simple childhood game of “Telephone” is sufficient to illustrate the point that stories told mouth to mouth for 35 years or more can’t possibly retain their original content.

The Gospel of Mark is the first of the Gospels to proffer quotes allegedly from Jesus. We question how authentic these quotes could possibly be, given the convoluted path from Jesus’ lips to “Marks” wax tablets and the years that passed since the words were allegedly spoken. We have written a treatise on the impossibilities of Jesus’ actual words being accurately recorded 40+ years after they were spoken.

By the end of the 2nd century the tradition of Matthew the tax-collector had become widely accepted, and the line “The Gospel According to Matthew” began to be added to manuscripts. For many reasons scholars today believe otherwise—fifty five percent of the gospel is copied from Mark, and it seems unlikely that an eyewitness of Jesus’ ministry would need to rely on others for information about it. They believe instead that it was written between about 80–90 AD by a highly educated Jew, intimately familiar with the technical aspects of Jewish law, standing on the boundary between traditional and non-traditional Jewish values.

A widespread theory holds that the author drew on three primary sources, each representing a distinct community: a hypothetical collection, or several collections, of sayings (called “Q“, and shared with Luke); the Gospel of Mark; and material unique to Matthew (called “M”, some of which may have originated with Matthew himself).

He wrote for a Jewish audience: like “Q” and “M”, he stresses the continuing relevance of the Jewish law; unlike Mark he never bothers to explain Jewish customs; and unlike Luke, who traces Jesus’s ancestry back to Adam, father of the human race, he traces it only to Abraham, father of the Jews. The fact that his linage differs significantly from that of Luke is a real problem for those who claim that the Holy Spirit’s hand guided the writers of the gospels.

The content of “M” suggests that the community for which this gospel was written, was stricter than the others in its attitude to keeping the Jewish law, holding that they must exceed the scribes and the Pharisees in “righteousness” (adherence to Jewish law); and of the three only “M” refers to a “church” (ecclesia), an organised group with rules for keeping order. Biblical scholars generally hold that Matthew was composed between the years c. 70 and 100.

Most modern critical scholarship concludes that Luke used the Gospel of Mark for his chronology and a hypothetical sayings source Q document for many of Jesus’ teachings. Luke may also have drawn from independent written records. Traditional Christian scholarship has dated the composition of the gospel to the early 60s, while higher criticism dates it to the later decades of the 1st century. While the traditional view that Paul’s companion Luke authored the gospel is still often put forward, a number of possible contradictions between Acts and Paul’s letters lead many scholars to dispute this account.

John differs significantly from the synoptic gospels in theme, content, time duration, order of events, and style. Only ca. 8% of it is parallel to these other gospels, and even then, no such word-for-word parallelism occurs as we find among the synoptic gospels. The Gospel of John reflects a Christian tradition that is different from that of the other gospels. It was rejected as heretical by many individuals and groups within the early Christian movement. It was used extensively by the Gnostic Christians. But it was ultimately accepted into the official canon, over many objections. It is now the favorite gospel of many conservative Christians, and the gospel least referred to by many liberal Christians.

They have a totally different agenda in mind for their audience than did the authors of the synoptic gospels. The authors of the synoptic gospels were writing to their fellow Jews and trying to convince them that they could accept Jesus as the Messiah and still remain Jewish. Matthew even indicates that the men should still be circumcised .

John’s teachings , as summed up in John 3:16 are just the opposite of those of the writers of Mark, Matthew and Luke. Whereas John welcomes anyone into the fold, Mark, Matthew and Luke write for and to Jews only. They see Jesus as the Jewish Messiah who has come to return Israel to its former glory.

The gospel identifies its author as “the disciple whom Jesus loved.” The text does not actually name this disciple, but by the beginning of the 2nd century a tradition began to form which identified him with John the Apostle, one of the Twelve (Jesus’s innermost circle). Today the majority of scholars do not believe that John or any other eyewitness wrote it and trace it instead to a “Johannine community” which traced its traditions to John; the gospel itself shows signs of having been composed in three “layers”, reaching its final form about 90-100 AD.
 

shira

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Jan 12, 2005
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Also, after feeling a familiarity with some of these arguements, I did a little digging and sure enough, ties to the jesus siminar guys.
I guess my recommendation is to look into as much of this as you have patience for, but it's honestly it's very amatuer stuff at best, and in no way representative of 'serious scholars' as a whole. Here's a rebuff from a non Christian if you're interested.
http://armariummagnus.blogspot.ca/2013/12/the-jesus-myth-theory-reponse-to-david.html?m=1

Let's make a distinction between two claims: 1) That Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were not written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and 2) that the historical Jesus never existed.

My original post acknowledged that claim (2) is in the minority of serious scholars; but states that this minority is growing. Claim (1) on the other hand seems well-supported (and is the consensus even) among serious non-Christian scholars.

Edit: A quote I left out of the OP was this one:

The arguments on both sides of this question—mythologized history or historicized mythology—fill volumes, and if anything the debate seems to be heating up rather than resolving. A growing number of scholars are openly questioning or actively arguing against Jesus’ historicity.

So it's not at all surprising that you can produce an example of the "heated debate" of this question. But simply dismissing as "amateur stuff" - because of the existence of "heat" - the minority view among serious scholars who are increasingly questioning the historical reality of Jesus is rather unfair, don't you think? By your reasoning, ANY serious scholar who disputes a consensus is an "amateur." And while I am very sympathetic to the notion that a small and not-growing minority that disputes a strong consensus is probably dead wrong (example: climatologists who dispute climate change), that characterization clearly does not apply in this case.
 
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stormkroe

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May 28, 2011
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Ok, first let me say again that the debate can only be helpful. I'm just pointing out that Fitzgerald, particularly, is a hack and not indicative of a field shift toward mythicism. He's the reference for the OP, please read the link I dropped and it will be clear to you.
As to the page you posted, it sites Paul Tobin for backup info, again a lone ranger on the subject. I don't want to make the mistake of proportioning obscurity to reliability, but the information here has been around the block. There's nothing new put forward here to bring heat to the debate for people having history with the subject, the rebuttals have all been made.
While it may be true the debate is growing, there is no support for the claim
The arguments on both sides of this question—mythologized history or historicized mythology—fill volumes,*. A growing number of scholars are openly questioning or actively arguing against Jesus’ historicity.
found in Fitzgerald's recycled and dishonest blog-booking.
I will read more of the Tobin stuff tomorrow for sure.
Thanks again.
 
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Darwin333

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Honest question that I haven't bothered looking up, are any of the disciples names even remotely common in the area and time?
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
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Thanks for the info, there's quite a bit to go through. I just grabbed this

That's a bold statement to make without quite a bit of material to back up, bold enough that it would rock the evangelical Church quite a bit if it were substantiated.
If the discussion can stay civil, I look forward to it. If a Faith withstands criticism like this, it is strengthened. If not, then it was wrong and justly condemned.

That has long been accepted by all Biblical Scholars.
 

stormkroe

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May 28, 2011
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Honest question that I haven't bothered looking up, are any of the disciples names even remotely common in the area and time?

They're anglocizes. Found this:
Matthew = Mattanyahu Levy
Mark = Yehochanan Marcos (many had Hebrew and Greek names)
Luke = Lucas (a Greek)
John = Yehochanan*
Peter = Shimon Cephas (the Aramaic for stone)*
James = Yacov (King James wanted his name in the Bible so the translaters used the name Jacob)
Andrew = Adam (the Greek would be Andropos)
Jude / Judas = Yehuda (Judah)*
Stephen = Tsephanyahu (also translated Zephaniah)
Bartholomew = Ben Tholomyahu (son of Ptolome)
Saul = Sha'ul with the Greek name Paulos (Paul)
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
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Ok, first let me say again that the debate can only be helpful. I'm just pointing out that Fitzgerald, particularly, is a hack and not indicative of a field shift toward mythicism. He's the reference for the OP, please read the link I dropped and it will be clear to you.
As to the page you posted, it sites Paul Tobin for backup info, again a lone ranger on the subject. I don't want to make the mistake of proportioning obscurity to reliability, but the information here has been around the block. There's nothing new put forward here to bring heat to the debate for people having history with the subject, the rebuttals have all been made.
While it may be true the debate is growing, there is no support for the claim found in Fitzgerald's recycled and dishonest blog-booking.
I will read more of the Tobin stuff tomorrow for sure.
Thanks again.

Your original question was whether it was true that "most non-Christian scholars" believe that the gospels weren't written by the named author. That would seem like a fairly easy question to research. For example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_Bible#Gospels_and_Acts

Mark

According to tradition and early church fathers, the author is Mark the Evangelist, the companion of the apostle Peter. The gospel, however, appears to rely on several underlying sources, varying in form and in theology, and which tells against the tradition that the gospel was based on Peter's preaching. Various elements within the gospel, including the importance of the authority of Peter and the broadness of the basic theology, suggest that the author wrote in Syria or Palestine for a non-Jewish Christian community which had earlier absorbed the influence of pre-Pauline beliefs and then developed them further independent of Paul.

Matthew

Early Christian tradition held that the Gospel of Matthew was written in "Hebrew" (Aramaic, the language of Judea) by the apostle Matthew, the tax-collector and disciple of Jesus, but according to the majority of modern scholars it is unlikely that this Gospel was written by an eyewitness. Modern scholars interpret the tradition to mean that Papias, its source, writing about 125–150 CE, believed that Matthew had made a collection of the sayings of Jesus. Papias's description does not correspond well with what is known of the gospel: it was most probably written in Greek, not Aramaic or Hebrew, it depends on the Greek Gospels of Mark and on the hypothetical Q document, and it is not a collection of sayings. Although the identity of the author is unknown, the internal evidence of the Gospel suggests that he was an ethnic Jewish male scribe from a Hellenised city, possibly Antioch in Syria, and that he wrote between 70 and 100 CE using a variety of oral traditions and written sources about Jesus.

Luke and Acts

There is general acceptance that the Gospel of Luke and the Acts of the Apostles originated as a two-volume work by a single author addressed to an otherwise unknown individual named Theophilus. This author was an "amateur Hellenistic historian" versed in Greek rhetoric, that being the standard training for historians in the ancient world.

According to tradition the author was Luke the Evangelist, the companion of the Apostle Paul, but many modern scholars have expressed doubt and opinion on the subject is evenly divided. Instead, they believe Luke-Acts was written by an anonymous Christian author who may not have been an eyewitness to any of the events recorded within the text. Some of the evidence cited comes from the text of Luke-Acts itself. In the preface to Luke, the author refers to having eyewitness testimony "handed down to us" and to having undertaken a "careful investigation", but the author does not mention his own name or explicitly claim to be an eyewitness to any of the events, except for the we passages. And in the we passages, the narrative is written in the first person plural— the author never refers to himself as "I" or "me". To those who are skeptical of an eyewitness author, the we passages are usually regarded as fragments of a second document, part of some earlier account, which was later incorporated into Acts by the later author of Luke-Acts, or simply a Greek rhetorical device used for sea voyages.

John

John 21:24 identifies the author of the Gospel of John as "the beloved disciple," and from the late 2nd century this figure, unnamed in the Gospel itself, was identified with John the son of Zebedee. Today, however, most scholars agree that John 21 is an appendix to the Gospel, which originally ended at John 20:30–31. The majority of scholars date the Gospel of John to c. 80–95, and propose that the author made use of two major sources, a "Signs" source (a collection of seven miracle stories) and a "Discourse" source.
 

stormkroe

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That has long been accepted by all Biblical Scholars.

I'm honestly very interested in where that assertion comes from. It can't be all, because I know many scholars who don't accept that, particularly with Luke. I would argue the majority don't accept that, but that could be due to most Biblical scholars being believers.
 

stormkroe

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May 28, 2011
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Your original question was whether it was true that "most non-Christian scholars" believe that the gospels weren't written by the named author. That would seem like a fairly easy question to research. For example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_Bible#Gospels_and_Acts

No, my first question was 'please back up the statement "we now know that the four gospels... were not written by them", not whether or not the majority of secular historians believe that assertion.
 

Annisman*

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In the op you mentioned that you were of the opinion that the Jesus of Christianity did exist, I'm not being a prick I promise but I wonder if people who do believe in his existence have thought of what that actually would mean. This is a quote from CS Lewis' book Mere Christianity that I've always found very pointed:

In his famous book Mere Christianity, C.S. Lewis makes this statement, "A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic--on the level with a man who says he is a poached egg--or he would be the devil of hell. You must take your choice. Either this was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us.
 

frowertr

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Apr 17, 2010
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That has long been accepted by all Biblical Scholars.


This. Take any New Testament course in college and this will be one of the first things you learn. You would also learn that only a handful of Paul's letter were actually written by Paul.

Most people only know of Christianity through the church that they go to. Unfortunately, that is so heavily skewed that they really don't learn anything about it.
 

Annisman*

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Aug 20, 2010
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This. Take any New Testament course in college and this will be one of the first things you learn. You would also learn that only a handful of Paul's letter were actually written by Paul.

Most people only know of Christianity through the church that they go to. Unfortunately, that is so heavily skewed that they really don't learn anything about it.

I think part of it is, as a Christian you believe that the Bible is the literal word of God, written by men but 100% inspired by the living God. With that belief, it doesn't really matter who wrote what because who God chose to write it becomes irrelevant besides what is written, and I understand from the outside looking in for people that just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Now, I'm not even saying that I think personally there should be conflict regarding who wrote what, just that debating that is much more of an issue for the non-believer.

Btw, nice sound card :thumbsup:
 

Retro Rob

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Apr 22, 2012
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Even though I'm an agnostic atheist, I've been of the opinion that there was an actual person (whether his actual name was "Jesus" or something else) upon which Christianity is based. The prevalent theory among secular historians is that this actual person was the 1st century rabbi Yeshua ben Yosef, and that many of the stories surrounding his life are in fact myths which were built up over the centuries following his death. But this article points out that the very existence of a historical Jesus is increasingly being questioned by serious scholars. That's not to say this has become the majority view - far from it, but the fact is that the consensus that a historical Jesus actually existed is weakening.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/08/did-jesus-exist-growing-number-of-scholars-dont-think-so/


The funny thing about this statement is that despite all the "unknowns", they're going to draw their own conclusions anyway as if facts are determined by popular opinion.

Just to drop this little nugget in here, most, if not all if the following historical facts about the Bible were "unknown" and declared "myths" by contemporary scholars before their findings:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_biblical_figures_identified_in_extra-biblical_sources


How many times do secular scholars have to make fools of themselves? We have enough confirmed evidence in the Bible to where we can pretty much rely on that it's telling the truth.

I have other information, but it seems that people who had political power, or who had strong political influence were extensively written about, like Cyrus, who is mentioned in the Bible:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the_Great#Politics_and_management
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebuchadnezzar_II


My guess is since Jesus and his Apostles were not at all politically involved, but sectarian peasants in the Roman world, its no wonder they were absent from a lot of documents...no one really cared for the early Christian sect.

However, scholars actually harm the Biblical narrative because they're trying to tie Jesus with someone else, instead of admitting that they simply "don't know", which they do not know as of now.
 
Nov 29, 2006
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I think part of it is, as a Christian you believe that the Bible is the literal word of God, written by men but 100% inspired by the living God. With that belief, it doesn't really matter who wrote what because who God chose to write it becomes irrelevant besides what is written, and I understand from the outside looking in for people that just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Now, I'm not even saying that I think personally there should be conflict regarding who wrote what, just that debating that is much more of an issue for the non-believer.

Btw, nice sound card :thumbsup:

And that is also fine to believe. But then in this case you have God literally contradicting himself :) If he is the sole lone author of the bible :)
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
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In the op you mentioned that you were of the opinion that the Jesus of Christianity did exist, I'm not being a prick I promise but I wonder if people who do believe in his existence have thought of what that actually would mean. This is a quote from CS Lewis' book Mere Christianity that I've always found very pointed:

In his famous book Mere Christianity, C.S. Lewis makes this statement, "A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic--on the level with a man who says he is a poached egg--or he would be the devil of hell. You must take your choice. Either this was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us.

I've long thought Jesus really existed but as I tell others (which aligns with your second paragraph), imagine if someone existed today and said the things Jesus did -- he would be thrown into an asylum. I don't understand why this doesn't occur to more Christians, but to each his own. Clearly, the people in the historical Jesus' time believed in magic and other superstitions and lacked the proper analytical and critical skills, along with knowledge, to properly vet his assertions.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
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I will never understand why a man who taught only peace and love is hated so much.

If you want proof that Jesus existed, look no further than Josephus.
 

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
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This website appears to have reliable information related to your question:

http://thechurchoftruth.wordpress.com/synoptic-gospels-not-writen-by-matt-mark-luke-or-john/

http://thechurchoftruth.wordpress.com/

The Bible Is So Wrong About So Much
…why do you believe any of it?

Do you even care if what you believe is true?

There is no evidence that what the Bible says about any of the events below is true; and that is the truth.

The Bible is wrong about the origin of the cosmos. The Truth

The Bible is wrong about the origin of the species. The Truth

The Bible is wrong about “Original Sin”. The Truth

The Bible is wrong about Noah and a world wide flood. The Truth

The Bible is wrong about the Tower of Babel. The Truth

The Bible is wrong about Moses. The Truth

The Bible is wrong about Egypt being plagued by 10 plagues. The Truth

The Bible is wrong about the Exodus. The Truth

The Bible is wrong about the 10 Commandments. The Truth.

The Bible is wrong to require you to “redeem” your firstborn son (4th commandment). The Truth

The Bible is wrong about Joshua and the tumbling walls of Jericho. The Truth

The Bible is wrong about sun, shadows and drought. The Truth

The Bible is wrong about 1,000,000 Ethiopians being murdered. The Truth

The Bible is wrong to make you believe that God has a plan for you. The Truth

The Bible is wrong about God being loving, merciful and just. The Truth

The Bible is wrong to promote Yahweh as the only God. The Truth

The Bible is wrong to encourage slavery. The Truth

The Bible is wrong to encourage rape The Truth

The Bible is wrong about its promises to the Jews. The Truth

The Bible is wrong about Jesus’ birth. The Truth

The Bible is wrong about the power of prayer. The Truth

The Bible is wrong about Jesus love for you. The Truth

The Bible is wrong about Jesus’ Crucifixion. The Truth

The Bible is wrong to teach that “Jesus died for our sins”. The Truth

The Bible is wrong – Jesus Was NOT Resurrected. The Truth

The Bible is wrong about who Jesus was. The Truth

The Bible is wrong about the requirements for Salvation. The Truth

The Bible is wrong about the “End Times”. The Truth

The Bible is wrong about Jesus and Family Values. The Truth

The Bible is wrong about what Jesus said. The Truth

The Bible is wrong about who wrote Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The Truth

The Bible is wrong; it is not the word of God. The Truth

The Bible is wrong because it contradicts itself. The Truth

Jesus’ own words PROVE the Bible is wrong. The Truth

Paul is so wrong about so much, why do you believe anything he says? The Truth

Your source.... the religion butthurt is strong.
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
8,232
2
0
Never surprised how far some people try and disprove things that they already believe to be fantasy/fiction. The irony is pretty funny.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,151
108
106
I will never understand why a man who taught only peace and love is hated so much.

If you want proof that Jesus existed, look no further than Josephus.

Don't you know, all those are faked, or were "later additions".

Notice this too, TH, that anyone mentioning Jesus was lying, or the documents are fabrications and exaggerations....this is normally how atheists hold on to their lies by poising the well before anyone objectively examines it.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
198
106
Your source.... the religion butthurt is strong.

Haters gonna hate.

Christ taught love, forgiveness and charity. If you destroy the man, you destroy his teachings.

Those who would do away with the teaching of Christ, what would those teachings be replaced with?

Lust? Hate? Greed?

The true evil here are the people who wish to destroy the teachings of Christ.
 
Last edited:
Nov 29, 2006
15,925
4,498
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Never surprised how far some people try and disprove things that they already believe to be fantasy/fiction. The irony is pretty funny.

Really? Through out history religion has killed, oppressed and tortured people and you wonder why some would look to disprove it? That wasnt even very far outside the box to get to that one.