Existence of the "historical Jesus" increasingly questioned by scholars

[SlowSpyder]

Yes they do and no you do not.

The old testament setup for the arrival of Christ.

Once Christ started teaching, his teachings abolished the old testament. The old testament is no longer relevant.

The first set of laws were given through Moses. The jews turned their back to those teachings. So GOD established a new set of laws through Christ. The new laws are meant for everyone and not just jews.

I don't agree. The laws are still in effect. God's punishment is just different. He won't turn you into a pillar of salt (lol) today, now you just go to hell after you die. The 10 commandments still count, right?

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Mortality? I'm very comfortable with knowing death is the absence of life, and that it's really nothing more than permanent "sleep".

Hell is a myth (just a erroneous translation of the Hebrew word "sheol" and the Greek word "Hades" which means "abode of the dead"), so I'm not concerned about that.

My beliefs give me answers I've been looking for. Mortality has never entered the picture, quite honestly.

What answers would those be?

 

[Texashiker]

The 10 commandments still count, right?

People would like to think the 10 commandments still count, but they do not.

We have a new testament and a new covenant.

If the old testament still counts, then jews are still the only chosen people.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Jesus does exist, I saw him the past Saturday in the parking lot of the Home Depot on the corner of Bellaire Blvd and Sam Houston Pkwy.

 

[IronWing]

If the old testament still counts, then jews are still the only chosen people.

Just because you crashed the party and chugged the wine doesn't mean you're welcome.

 

[kage69]

Haters gonna hate.

I see no vice in 'hating' fraud and falsehoods. Hate isn't exactly the emotion conjured when I hear people like you cling to ignorance, more like equal parts pity and exasperation. That you deliver it with such authority and certitude does add an element of humor to it though, to be fair.

No matter what proof is presented you would reject it. Even if we had video, pictures and eye witnesses, you would reject it.

You really need to understand what the word means before you start crying about others not indulging you in your perception of it. Your speculation means nothing.

I'm actually all for people substantiating their positions with logic and fact, hardly my fault you put them out of reach by establishing your conclusion and working backwards to justify it. If you can support your belief with actual data and facts, and without resorting to circular reasoning or hilarious contradictions and falsehoods, then by all means, lets see it.

You sir are full of hate.

Quite the opposite actually, I'm full of love and respect for history. Hence my annoyance when it's corrupted to protect the feelings of those who prefer fantasy to reality - people like you who need to have life summarized into cute little stories that massage your egos and make you feel relevant and safe.

 

[Texashiker]

Just because you crashed the party

That is one of the reasons why Christ was rejected as the messiah. Jews were expecting a warrior to conquer the Romans.

Jesus taught everything the jews did not want to hear. Love, salvation, pay your taxes, no money changing in the temple,,, etc.

The hearts of jews were hardened towards christ. Their hearts are still hard to this day. Barbabas was freed and Chirst was sacrificed.

I see no vice in 'hating' fraud and falsehoods.

Josephus was a liar?

Christ was a liar?

 

[SlowSpyder]

People would like to think the 10 commandments still count, but they do not.

We have a new testament and a new covenant.

If the old testament still counts, then jews are still the only chosen people.

I understand that with jesus humanity got a new deal with god. But jesus himself says he did not come to abolish the law, regarding the old testament.

http://carm.org/questions/about-jesus/what-did-jesus-teach-about-old-testament

http://www.gci.org/law/otl10


So as I said in another thread, at best it is a matter of opinion. But seeing as how jesus plainly says he's not here to abolish the laws and cites the old testament, I'm of the belief that those rules are still in effect. Of course it raises the question, how can a god who supposedly built the universe in just six days and claims to have known each of us since before we were born, not communicate clearly. Almost seems like it's all man made...

 

[IronWing]

Christ was a liar?

And so we limp back to the topic of this thread. Jesus could hardly be considered a liar if there is no evidence that he might have said any of what has beed attributed to him.

 

[Retro Rob]

What answers would those be?

Don't really care to get into it, so you'll just have to take my word for it.

Just wanted to make it perfectly clear that death is an eventuality for everyone, and knowing that its no different that a deep, undisturbed "sleep", that's in itself an answer I've found in my studies.

 

[Texashiker]

So as I said in another thread, at best it is a matter of opinion. But seeing as how jesus plainly says he's not here to abolish the laws and cites the old testament, I'm of the belief that those rules are still in effect.

If Chirst said he was there to abolish the old laws, the jews would have turned against him. But they ended up doing that anyway.

Of course it raises the question, how can a god who supposedly built the universe in just six days and claims to have known each of us since before we were born, not communicate clearly. Almost seems like it's all man made...

No one may go t the father except through Christ.

All the laws about not eating pork, not working on the sabbath,,,, were abolished.

 

[Texashiker]

And so we limp back to the topic of this thread. Jesus could hardly be considered a liar if there is no evidence that he might have said any of what has beed attributed to him.

Lets use the same standard of proof on all historical records.

For example, how do we know Julius Caesar's account of the Gallic Wars is true? How many people are lining up to declare "Commentarii de Bello Gallico" a work of fiction?

Where is the original Commentarii de Bello Gallico written by Caesar? It does not exist, just copies exist. The most recent copy of Commentarii de Bello Gallico probably dates to several hundred years after Caesar died.

But for some reason the very existence of Christ has to be questioned?

 

[HumblePie]

The argument over the existence of the historical figure later deigned Jesus Christ has been argued over for a long time. Doubt has existed due to the fact there isn't any physical evidence about him, no lineage that can be traced, and that all accounts written about him were 3rd hand accounts from scripts that the oldest of which found is many years after he was purported to have died.

Much of the writings about who and what he was or had done match up in some regards to many other previous religious stories and myths.

The only evidence that any historian has to his existence is those older manuscripts, and certainly not any modern bible.

Though there is doubt, that doesn't mean he didn't exist, just that the current evidence doesn't prove he did either. So for current believers, the sketchy evidence that does exist is enough to reaffirm their faith to believe he was real and did exist. To those that don't believe, it isn't enough, but that doesn't mean the search for more conclusive evidence shouldn't be done either. Although it is harder to prove a negative here in proving he didn't exist as the only proof that could do that would be the lack of proof of his existence. To which the believers will only point out that lack of proof just means it hasn't been found it. Catch 22.

 

[fskimospy]

Lets use the same standard of proof on all historical records.

For example, how do we know Julius Caesar's account of the Gallic Wars is true? How many people are lining up to declare "Commentarii de Bello Gallico" a work of fiction?

Where is the original Commentarii de Bello Gallico written by Caesar? It does not exist, just copies exist. The most recent copy of Commentarii de Bello Gallico probably dates to several hundred years after Caesar died.

But for some reason the very existence of Christ has to be questioned?

Uhmm, we DO use that standard of proof on all historical records.

Everyone accepts that that Ceasar's account is not entirely true, much like the bible it has areas of internal inconsistency, therefore it cannot be entirely true.

 

[SlowSpyder]

If Chirst said he was there to abolish the old laws, the jews would have turned against him. But they ended up doing that anyway.




No one may go t the father except through Christ.

All the laws about not eating pork, not working on the sabbath,,,, were abolished.

If I say, I'm here to fulfill and oath, that's different than saying I'm here not to abolish the oath, but fulfill it. You see it one way, I see it differently. Again, hardly text that points to a divine author and part of the reason you see so many different sects of christianity today.

The point of this line of conversation was that jesus' doesn't exist in a vacuum. Maybe for you he does and you can look past all the horrible things in the bible. For many that isn't the case.

I don't really have an opinion on if jesus really existed or not. There are some reasonable arguments going each way, if anything I tend to believe he likely was real, but who knows. Either way I don't believe he was miraculous or the son of god, or that the christian god even exists.


And as pointed out earlier in this thread, I don't understand how christians can simply look past almost everything in the story of jesus being borrowed from earlier deities in earlier religions. That is a good way for man to 'create' a mythical god who doesn't actually exist. Don't you wonder why it just so happens that just about everything in jesus' story happens to parallel other older religious stories?

 

[Atreus21]

I've long thought Jesus really existed but as I tell others (which aligns with your second paragraph), imagine if someone existed today and said the things Jesus did -- he would be thrown into an asylum. I don't understand why this doesn't occur to more Christians, but to each his own. Clearly, the people in the historical Jesus' time believed in magic and other superstitions and lacked the proper analytical and critical skills, along with knowledge, to properly vet his assertions.

Jesus was nailed bodily to a cross and asphyxiated...

 

[Texashiker]

Uhmm, we DO use that standard of proof on all historical records.

Bull crap.

Everyone accepts that that Ceasar's account is not entirely true, much like the bible it has areas of internal inconsistency, therefore it cannot be entirely true.

So Caesar never existed, right?

If the accounts are not 100% true, then Caesar never existed, right?

Don't you wonder why it just so happens that just about everything in jesus' story happens to parallel other older religious stories?

Nope.

Just as with Julius Caesar we have second hand accounts of his life.

 

[doubledeluxe]

Cesaer: no magical claims
Jesus: performed miracles and magic

If course the burden of proof is higher. Use some common sense already!

Just because you believe in god does not mean you have to be retarded.

 

[fskimospy]

Bull crap.

Just because you don't like reality doesn't mean it's not true.

So Caesar never existed, right?

If the accounts are not 100% true, then Caesar never existed, right?

Pathetic straw man.

 

[IronWing]

Bull crap.

So Caesar never existed, right?

If the accounts are not 100% true, then Caesar never existed, right?

Nope.

Just as with Julius Caesar we have second hand accounts of his life.

Dragging TH to reason is like coaxing a tired puppy to finish the walk.

 

[doubledeluxe]

And as far as Moses existing? Archaeology disputes it. Science vs mythology.

 

[Texashiker]

Pathetic straw man.

Use the same standard.

What first hand accounts dating from the exact time of Caesar still exist? Not very many.

Most of what we have are copies of copies dating to several hundred years after the fact.

If that is enough to disprove the existence of Christ, it should be enough to disprove the existence of Julius Caesar.

 

[Thebobo]

I know one thing if there was a Jesus he sure as hell wouldn't happy with a good percentage of his followers.

 

[fskimospy]

Use the same standard.

What first hand accounts dating from the exact time of Caesar still exist? Not very many.

Most of what we have are copies of copies dating to several hundred years after the fact.

If that is enough to disprove the existence of Christ, it should be enough to disprove the existence of Julius Caesar.

You are clueless as to the state of evidence for the existence of Caesar vs. Jesus. There is no comparison.

I like how you think your own ignorance of something is somehow evidence in favor of your opinion though.

 

[xBiffx]

Cesaer: no magical claims
Jesus: performed miracles and magic

Actually a note on that. I was raised Catholic (haven't practiced since high school) and attended Catholic school all the way through high school. One of the most interesting religion classes I had, which was taught by a priest (with a degree in science), spent most of the time explaining how "miracles" and such contained in the Bible could be explained by natural phenomenon. It was quite interesting, especially considering the setting.