Excerpt on peak oil, revisited

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wwswimming

Banned
Jan 21, 2006
3,695
1
0
there's plenty of information for everybody.

for people that want to believe that we have plenty of oil to keep the US economy
humming, CERA (Cambridge Energy Research Associates) will be happy to sell
you information to support that point of view.

also, IEA (got to check the acronym) has similar reports.
 

tvarad

Golden Member
Jun 25, 2001
1,130
0
0
Here's an articulate article on oil from Times Online. I couldn't agree with him more. Especially because no free market can come to play due to the OPEC's choke-hold on production and the oilgarchies' choke-hold on distribution and the speculators' choke-hold on pricing.

The world must kick its addiction to oil

Markets won't correct the soaring prices that threaten our economic wellbeing. So governments must

Anatole Kaletsky

At the time of the last energy shock in the 1970s, Sheikh Yamani, the shrewd Saudi Oil Minister, famously told his greedier Opec colleagues that they would encourage replacement of oil by other energy sources and kill the golden goose that had made them wealthy if they kept pushing the oil price too high. ?Remember,? he said, ?the Stone Age didn't end because the cavemen ran out of stone.?

The last three global recessions - in 1974, 1980 and 1991 - were all triggered by an oil shock and it looks as if Opec is now determined to repeat this experience. How many such shocks will it take before we control our addiction to oil? Cynics will say that all the world's oil will have to run dry before we see any decisive action in the US or China to reduce and ultimately eliminate their oil demand. But a confluence of economics, politics, diplomacy, environmentalism and finance has suddenly been created which may unexpectedly prove the cynics wrong. An oil price of $140, never mind $200 or $300, is simply too economically damaging to be tolerated much longer.

The question is no longer whether oil prices will be left to the market, but whether political interventions that override market forces will improve or worsen the situation.

The usual answer to this question is the latter, which is why Western policymakers have been reluctant to do very much so far to curb the oil price. Such, in fact, is the faith in ?oil market fundamentals? expressed, for example, by Gordon Brown and the recent Treasury paper he commissioned on the oil shock that one is drawn to a surprising conclusion: the main reason for inaction in the face of the oil shock may not be the lack of political will to implement difficult decisions, such as higher petrol taxes or government guarantees for nuclear construction, but simply the ideology of market fundamentalism, expressed in such slogans as ?the market is always right?.
Background

* Oil is the key to world recovery

* Oil is too big to leave to market forces

* Stone Age lesson on taming oil price

* They're wrong about oil, by George

But the market is not always right. It is usually right, but sometimes it is spectacularly wrong - as in the recent sub-prime saga. To acknowledge that governments must sometimes correct market failures is not to reject the economic lessons of the 1980s but rather to apply a proper understanding of economics.

There are three main reasons why the market cannot be trusted in the case of oil. First, there is the enormous gap between the cost of producing oil in areas where it is abundant and the cost of producing any close substitutes for this oil. Easily accessible oil in places such as Saudi Arabia, Venezuela and Nigeria costs only a few dollars a barrel to pump once an oilfield is producing. Even including exploration expenses, the total cost of production of Opec oil is well below $10 a barrel.

However, the cost of any substitute runs to $50 or $60 a barrel, whether the Opec oil is replaced by oil from more hostile environments, such as deep-sea drilling in the Arctic, or by some other energy source such as nuclear or wind power. The gap between cheap Opec oil and any other energy source creates an enormous ?rent?, beyond any normal return on capital and costs of production, which either accrues to Opec as profits or to consumers as the benefit they enjoy from an energy source cheaper than any alternative in their own economies.

This rent, currently running at around $2 trillion annually, is at the heart of the perennial struggle between oil-producing and consuming governments. Either Western governments claim most of the rent for themselves by levying high taxes on domestic oil consumers, or Opec governments pocket most of the rent, as they are doing today.

But why shouldn't this rent be distributed ?fairly? or ?rationally? by market forces? The answer lies in the second ?market failure? inherent in the oil business - monopoly power. Because almost all of the world's readily accessible oil is concentrated in a handful of nations, they have been able to achieve almost total monopoly power through Opec. With the supply of oil controlled by a monopoly, there is nothing ?efficient? about the level of prices set in the market; and the competition between producers and consumers inevitably becomes an issue of politics, rather than economics.

The rational response of Western governments to this monopoly power is to lower the cost of energy substitutes by accelerating technological advances and increasing economies of scale. This can be done by imposing very high taxes on oil consumption to guarantee high profits for producers of non-oil fuels. At the same time, such taxes can ensure that most of the rent earned from the difference between consumer prices and Opec production costs stays in Western treasuries instead of going to producer governments.

The use of tax policy to capture rents for Western governments would be particularly effective if combined with regulations designed to prevent money being poured into speculative markets for ?paper oil? - which brings us to the third reason why price signals are misleading in the market for oil.

The gap between physical trading in oil and the paper markets in oil futures and oil-company shares raises all sorts of financial anomalies. One is the ramping-up of oil prices by institutional investors. Another is the strong incentive for Western oil companies to invest in oil exploration, which is inherently inefficient, when competing with low-cost state-owned producers, instead of investing in new technologies to replace oil, where Western economies have a comparative advantage over Opec.

As a result of these perverse incentives, Western energy executives invariably insist that there is no plausible alternative to oil. For example, Rex Tillerson, chairman of Exxon, remarked last year that he wasn't interested in biofuel research because ?I don't have a lot of technology to add to moonshine?. Tony Hayward, chief executive of BP, wrote a few weeks ago that ?humankind remains dependent on fossil fuels? because renewable sources now account for only 2 per cent of global energy use. This is hardly surprising, since companies such as BP and Exxon have no special skills in nuclear power, wind turbines or photovoltaics, and they have strong vested interests in political and fiscal support to explore for oil in ever more difficult and hostile regions of the world. But such support cannot be economically justified since Opec will always have an unbeatable comparative advantage in producing oil.

If Western governments play their cards correctly, people such as Mr Tillerson and Mr Hayward will be proved wrong - and ironically Sheikh Yamani will eventually be proved right. The world will wean itself off oil long before the sands of Saudi Arabia run dry.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
This article and further research is what promted me divest in RE (home building) and buy oil and gas properties. I'm loving peak oil. The higher it gets the more I can afford it. I no longer have to rely on primary and secondary income streams and don't even sweat two new houses I have sitting empty with utilities on. It's not to late as oil and gas will continue to rise.

www.ogclearinghouse.com

I also have a place where I can farm and ranch should SHTF.

The single most important book I recommend for survival is: http://www.amazon.com/Encyclop...d-Recipe/dp/0912365951

Don't worry about guns or ammo they will be everywhere as starvation and riots kills most. A good sleeping bag is essential too.

Being in shape for pioneer life is mandatory or you will die and a good idea in general peak oil or not.

Well I'm going to the lake for 6 days..gotta go fill the tanks with what's left.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
52,770
46,583
136
Originally posted by: CptObvious
Another read for those inclined is the 91-page Hirsch report, sponsoned by the Department of Energy in 2005. It supports peak oil theory.

It isn't debatable that conventional oil production will peak and then decline at some point in the future as reserves are exhausted.

I however don't subscribe to the idea that the instant this happens the world is going to automatically descend into something resembling the end of times.
 

CptObvious

Platinum Member
Mar 5, 2004
2,501
7
81
Originally posted by: K1052
It isn't debatable that conventional oil production will peak and then decline at some point in the future as reserves are exhausted.

I however don't subscribe to the idea that the instant this happens the world is going to automatically descend into something resembling the end of times.

I agree with you there. I think the changes to society will be gradual. However, from looking at production data, it appears that most conventional oil sources have peaked/plateaued and unconventional oil sources have not taken off, while worldwide consumption continues to rise. Reserves consumption is now greater than reserves addition.
 

desy

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2000
5,447
216
106
Actually
I don't think its going to be easy
We've take 150 yrs to build the oil infastructure intwined our whole lives around it and increased human population X many times from where we started.

As rich NA we aren't going to feel it as much because we have way overbuilt our society that we can make huge efforts in conservation and efficiency.
Its India's China Africa anyplace resource poor with large pops that are going to bear the brunt.
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,976
141
106
Originally posted by: K1052
That article is so fraught with inaccuracies that it's not even funny.

But people seem to love anything that tingles the fear nerve.

..thus the reason for alarmist media speculation and the constant drum beat for the C02 scams. It's easy to scare the herd over the cliff. Get a few of em scared and running, the rest will follow and fall.

 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Originally posted by: LegendKiller

I really couldn't care less about you, I'd just like to counter your BS to ensure others don't get trapped by it.

Still waiting.....
 

IEC

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Jun 10, 2004
14,600
6,084
136
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: CptObvious
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Did the US make 5 m/day as he says in 2004 and he said that's as high as it'll go? It makes 7.8M/day now.
According to DOE statistics here Text, crude oil production in the U.S. has leveled off around 5 million barrels a day for the past 3 years, current through April 2008.

From the chart you can clearly see the bell curve over time in production that peak oil advocates have been talking about.

Which doesn't include offshore in various places, nor advancing technologies in the shale industry.

Peak oil is a farce.

That stuff isn't cheap. Peak oil doesn't mean we run out of crude, it means we run out of CHEAP crude. Oil is only going to get more expensive in the foreseeable future.

<-- Full disclosure: Is heavily invested in oil-related stocks.
 

Kuragami

Member
Jun 20, 2008
92
0
0
With so many people who seem to be in the know I'm surprised nobody mentioned the Northern slope of Alaska and Gull island. Research it guys.

The problem is not that we are running out of oil. The problem and the reason why Peak Oil is real is because they can't or don't want to develop those fields for some reasons I know and some I have no clue.

There is a lot of speculation. What isn't speculation is how much oil exists in the US and its a heck of a lot more than what is known in Saudi Arabia. Russia may actually be up there as well in oil reserves as they supposedly found massive mega fields using deep drilling. Finding those so deep in the Earth is one thing of course, recovering it is another.

EDIT: One more thing. Water cutting oil fields to boost production results in the loss of approximately 20% of the oil in the field due to erosion. With all their technology this is exactly what is occurring in Saudi Arabia.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Spartan Niner

That stuff isn't cheap. Peak oil doesn't mean we run out of crude, it means we run out of CHEAP crude. Oil is only going to get more expensive in the foreseeable future.

<-- Full disclosure: Is heavily invested in oil-related stocks.

You must be a multi-millionaire

What brings you here with us peasants?
 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
1
0
Originally posted by: Kuragami
With so many people who seem to be in the know I'm surprised nobody mentioned the Northern slope of Alaska and Gull island. Research it guys.

The problem is not that we are running out of oil. The problem and the reason why Peak Oil is real is because they can't or don't want to develop those fields for some reasons I know and some I have no clue.

There is a lot of speculation. What isn't speculation is how much oil exists in the US and its a heck of a lot more than what is known in Saudi Arabia. Russia may actually be up there as well in oil reserves as they supposedly found massive mega fields using deep drilling. Finding those so deep in the Earth is one thing of course, recovering it is another.

EDIT: One more thing. Water cutting oil fields to boost production results in the loss of approximately 20% of the oil in the field due to erosion. With all their technology this is exactly what is occurring in Saudi Arabia.

Well I know very little about the fields mentioned, but even if they are incredible findings they only delay the inevitable (and the expense to reach them means they will hardly be "cheap oil"). The fact of the matter is that peak oil is going to happen one of these days and people sitting around with their heads in the sand doesn't help the problem. I'm not saying we need to panic or that anarchy and global depression will surely ensue, just that it might be nice if people could admit the problem so that we can develop a thoughtful approach to meeting our energy challenges as opposed to the completely random shit our government proposes which is based more on winning more subsidies for your states economy than any real understanding of fact.
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Originally posted by: Kuragami
With so many people who seem to be in the know I'm surprised nobody mentioned the Northern slope of Alaska and Gull island. Research it guys.

The problem is not that we are running out of oil. The problem and the reason why Peak Oil is real is because they can't or don't want to develop those fields for some reasons I know and some I have no clue.

There is a lot of speculation. What isn't speculation is how much oil exists in the US and its a heck of a lot more than what is known in Saudi Arabia. Russia may actually be up there as well in oil reserves as they supposedly found massive mega fields using deep drilling. Finding those so deep in the Earth is one thing of course, recovering it is another.

EDIT: One more thing. Water cutting oil fields to boost production results in the loss of approximately 20% of the oil in the field due to erosion. With all their technology this is exactly what is occurring in Saudi Arabia.

All the oil in the world means very little if you cant produce at a rate consistent with todays usage....

It aint the size of the tank, its the size of the tap.
 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
1
0
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: Kuragami
With so many people who seem to be in the know I'm surprised nobody mentioned the Northern slope of Alaska and Gull island. Research it guys.

The problem is not that we are running out of oil. The problem and the reason why Peak Oil is real is because they can't or don't want to develop those fields for some reasons I know and some I have no clue.

There is a lot of speculation. What isn't speculation is how much oil exists in the US and its a heck of a lot more than what is known in Saudi Arabia. Russia may actually be up there as well in oil reserves as they supposedly found massive mega fields using deep drilling. Finding those so deep in the Earth is one thing of course, recovering it is another.

EDIT: One more thing. Water cutting oil fields to boost production results in the loss of approximately 20% of the oil in the field due to erosion. With all their technology this is exactly what is occurring in Saudi Arabia.

All the oil in the world means very little if you cant produce at a rate consistent with todays usage....

It aint the size of the tank, its the size of the tap.

And also the cost of installing said taps. A bunch more oil doesn't help all that much if it costs 500$/bbl. Which of course brings out the meaning of peak oil, its not about running out of oil, its about the end of CHEAP oil. Hell, you could make a solid case that this has already hit, and finding a few more fields in the ost remote areas on earth really isn't going to stop this trend.
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
3
0
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: CptObvious
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Did the US make 5 m/day as he says in 2004 and he said that's as high as it'll go? It makes 7.8M/day now.
According to DOE statistics here Text, crude oil production in the U.S. has leveled off around 5 million barrels a day for the past 3 years, current through April 2008.

From the chart you can clearly see the bell curve over time in production that peak oil advocates have been talking about.

Which doesn't include offshore in various places, nor advancing technologies in the shale industry.

Peak oil is a farce.

LOL, what do you mean peak oil is a farce? You think oil is somehow limitless??? It's already becoming more expensive to extract, and you'd have to be a nutcase to believe it's going to get cheaper.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: CptObvious
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Did the US make 5 m/day as he says in 2004 and he said that's as high as it'll go? It makes 7.8M/day now.
According to DOE statistics here Text, crude oil production in the U.S. has leveled off around 5 million barrels a day for the past 3 years, current through April 2008.

From the chart you can clearly see the bell curve over time in production that peak oil advocates have been talking about.

Which doesn't include offshore in various places, nor advancing technologies in the shale industry.

Peak oil is a farce.

LOL, what do you mean peak oil is a farce? You think oil is somehow limitless??? It's already becoming more expensive to extract, and you'd have to be a nutcase to believe it's going to get cheaper.

It's marginally more expensive in most areas. Cheaper as in cheaper than $145? I absolutely think it will.

Technically, oil is limitless, since it can be produced with other means.
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
3
0
......

If you are talking about turning biomass into hydrocarbons, those are means that cost much more money and resources. You may be the first person in the world to ever use the term "oil" in this context, for anything other than the stuff that comes from the ground.

It's not called "peak vegetable oil"
 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
1
0
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
......

If you are talking about turning biomass into hydrocarbons, those are means that cost much more money and resources. You may be the first person in the world to ever use the term "oil" in this context, for anything other than the stuff that comes from the ground.

It's not called "peak vegetable oil"

Yes, peak oil refers to CONVENTIONAL oil, not oil shale, tar sands, ethanol, coal to liquids etc. The point is that all those other technologies are much more expensive then just pumping it out of the ground.
 

Oceandevi

Diamond Member
Jan 20, 2006
3,085
1
0
Things are going to change, we may lose a few large cities. The country can always revert or adapt though.
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: CptObvious
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Did the US make 5 m/day as he says in 2004 and he said that's as high as it'll go? It makes 7.8M/day now.
According to DOE statistics here Text, crude oil production in the U.S. has leveled off around 5 million barrels a day for the past 3 years, current through April 2008.

From the chart you can clearly see the bell curve over time in production that peak oil advocates have been talking about.

Which doesn't include offshore in various places, nor advancing technologies in the shale industry.

Peak oil is a farce.

LOL, what do you mean peak oil is a farce? You think oil is somehow limitless??? It's already becoming more expensive to extract, and you'd have to be a nutcase to believe it's going to get cheaper.

It's marginally more expensive in most areas. Cheaper as in cheaper than $145? I absolutely think it will.

Technically, oil is limitless, since it can be produced with other means.

Apparently in all that time studying numbers you forgot to study supply lines.
Almost every "alternative" in existence today is nothing more then a derivative of oil.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: CptObvious
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Did the US make 5 m/day as he says in 2004 and he said that's as high as it'll go? It makes 7.8M/day now.
According to DOE statistics here Text, crude oil production in the U.S. has leveled off around 5 million barrels a day for the past 3 years, current through April 2008.

From the chart you can clearly see the bell curve over time in production that peak oil advocates have been talking about.

Which doesn't include offshore in various places, nor advancing technologies in the shale industry.

Peak oil is a farce.

LOL, what do you mean peak oil is a farce? You think oil is somehow limitless???

It's already becoming more expensive to extract,

and you'd have to be a nutcase to believe it's going to get cheaper.

Link, proof?

It magically became that much more to extract from $60 to $145 in 6 months?

The planet will stop spinning tomorrow too.
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: CptObvious
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Did the US make 5 m/day as he says in 2004 and he said that's as high as it'll go? It makes 7.8M/day now.
According to DOE statistics here Text, crude oil production in the U.S. has leveled off around 5 million barrels a day for the past 3 years, current through April 2008.

From the chart you can clearly see the bell curve over time in production that peak oil advocates have been talking about.

Which doesn't include offshore in various places, nor advancing technologies in the shale industry.

Peak oil is a farce.

LOL, what do you mean peak oil is a farce? You think oil is somehow limitless???

It's already becoming more expensive to extract,

and you'd have to be a nutcase to believe it's going to get cheaper.

Link, proof?

It magically became that much more to extract from $60 to $145 in 6 months?

The planet will stop spinning tomorrow too.

Thats the funny thing about supply and demand.
Theres 2 sides. I know a frothing at the mouth liberal thinks its just supply side and Big Oil controlling costs but believe it or not, there *is* another side to the equation called the consumer side.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: Specop 007
I know a frothing at the mouth liberal thinks its just supply side and Big Oil controlling costs but believe it or not, there *is* another side to the equation called the consumer side.
Which is down.

 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: CptObvious
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Did the US make 5 m/day as he says in 2004 and he said that's as high as it'll go? It makes 7.8M/day now.
According to DOE statistics here Text, crude oil production in the U.S. has leveled off around 5 million barrels a day for the past 3 years, current through April 2008.

From the chart you can clearly see the bell curve over time in production that peak oil advocates have been talking about.

Which doesn't include offshore in various places, nor advancing technologies in the shale industry.

Peak oil is a farce.

LOL, what do you mean peak oil is a farce? You think oil is somehow limitless???

It's already becoming more expensive to extract,

and you'd have to be a nutcase to believe it's going to get cheaper.

Link, proof?

It magically became that much more to extract from $60 to $145 in 6 months?

The planet will stop spinning tomorrow too.

Thats the funny thing about supply and demand.
Theres 2 sides. I know a frothing at the mouth liberal thinks its just supply side and Big Oil controlling costs but believe it or not, there *is* another side to the equation called the consumer side.

And people who have no idea how the capital markets work completely forget that supply/demand equations only work when other exogenous independent variables do not alter the equation, and that supply/demand only works when the markets are rational and efficient.

But then again, you knew that, right?