evolution of religion

bwanaaa

Senior member
Dec 26, 2002
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1000 years ago, christian dogma said it was good to kill heathens to spread christianity (viz The Crusades). Likewise, the heathens killed all the christians they could get their hands on, so their team could win. How is it that christianity evolved out of this doctrine but the heathens still haven't?

Is it because the the Europeans discovered the new world and realized that the church really didnt know it all? That the church had no clue about the riches of the new world? and perhaps its precepts of violence as an accepted behavior were best buried?

Would an equivalent 'discovery' by the people led by these other 'stuck in the past' religions get them to abandon violence?
 

AllGamer

Senior member
Apr 26, 2006
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Violence is always used as their only resort to resolve their conflicts.
Humans are still animals, you can't deny that fact.
Thus naturally you can not avoid you primal instincts.

The true and only way to resolve violence is for BioResearches and Scientist to find a way to strip that Code from our DNA.
Which basically means creating a new race of Humans, that are no longer attached to their past.

But this on its own then it can create another big problem.... the Mass genocide between Primal Humans vs. Scientifically Corrected Humans...

and then, maybe then, after all the Old humans (us) are all dead, then the New Humans will make the perfect world without violence.

BTW, the above scenario is triggered when Old humans, as usual, turns into fear of the new humans, and start to kill the new humans, but then the new humans defends their race by eliminating the old humans as their next logical point of action.

yes the new humans will very much act like androids or computers, since being stripped out of their primordial animal instincts they can only act and think logically like a computer AI.

so it's either a Genocide War, or They run to another planet, if they are the "peace" loving types that doesn't fight back due the lack of their primordial instincts
 

NiteWulf

Golden Member
Jan 3, 2003
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I think it's important to note that whatever the dogma of the given religion, violence by believers is never promoted in the New Testament and is spoken against. The crusades were not "Christian" wars. They were possible because the Catholic church was in a position of power. During the Reformation people started rejecting the Catholic church/papacy and started to get back to the teachings of the Bible (though today most aren't much closer).

Christianity hasn't changed at all since completion of the Bible, it's just that people's practice of it has changed
 

lousydood

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Aug 1, 2005
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1) It doesn't help that you call them 'heathens.'

2) Westerners non-violent? Have you bothered to open a newspaper, ever?

Not to mention, the moment the Europeans discovered the "New" world, they engaged in a systematic slaughter of indigenous peoples. "Precepts of violence" didn't go anywhere.

Whenever I hear someone describe themselves as Christian, I wince, because 99% of the time they are a gigantic hypocrite.

What is this doing on highly technical?
 

CTho9305

Elite Member
Jul 26, 2000
9,214
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How is it that christianity evolved out of this doctrine...
You're right... that stuff about Christians blowing other Christians up in Ireland up through the 1990s were just lies by the evil secular media. I guess the European Christians aren't as evolved as the Christians in the US... stories about Christians here blowing up abortion clinics are the worst of the media lies.

Or maybe, just maybe, a small number of Christians are violent psychopaths, and a small number of Muslims are violent psychopaths... but when some yokel who has never seen brown skin unaccompanied by a red neck hears about a Christian bomber, he thinks, "Gee, I know hundreds of Christians and have heard of millions, and only one of them is a bomber" and when he hears about a Muslim bomber he thinks, "Gee, I've never met one of them heathens, and every single one I've heard of was a suicide bomber".

I'd think having someone come to your country and bomb the crap out of it might increase the relative portion of the population that gets pushed over the edge. Standards of living also probably play a part - if you spend hours a day in front of an idiot box (TV), you're much more likely to end up fat, dumb, happy, and unmotivated to make any sacrifices than if, after coming home from a friend's funeral, you spend hours a day hoping some pissed off yankee doesn't bust down your door and start shooting.
 

bwanaaa

Senior member
Dec 26, 2002
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well-it's technical because it specifically addresses a particular twist in religion. that the the topic seemed to meander (genetic engineering, intrinsic violence of humanity, etc) is not my fault.

indeed, i apologize for using the word heathen. i was trying to compare those groups of people who still use religion as a 'hook' to 'forgive' violent behavior as 'justified' compared to those religions where this 'hook' was abandoned.

I did not suggest that Westerners are non violent.
 

KermitM42

Senior member
May 22, 2007
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Originally posted by: lousydood
1) It doesn't help that you call them 'heathens.'

2) Westerners non-violent? Have you bothered to open a newspaper, ever?

Not to mention, the moment the Europeans discovered the "New" world, they engaged in a systematic slaughter of indigenous peoples. "Precepts of violence" didn't go anywhere.

Whenever I hear someone describe themselves as Christian, I wince, because 99% of the time they are a gigantic hypocrite.

What is this doing on highly technical?

you're forgetting the persecution of the mormons in the mid-west. i believe it was missouri (not 100%) actually issued a full scale state wide extermination of the mormons in the 1800's. non-violent??
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
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I'm sure you were hoping for a more technical discussion, but it doesn't appear to be happening... this thread has gone way off topic, and that's where I'm going to stick it in a moment.

For what it's worth, there are college (both undergrad and graduate level) courses on the evolution of religions/the beginnings of various religions and how they've transformed over the past couple thousand years. But, the subject you've suggested seems perhaps a little broad.

Also, just a minor correction: the crusades originally weren't about Christians vs. Heathens to spread Christianity... The first crusades were to re-capture the Holy Land and the city of Jerusalem from the Muslims. Later, they continued to use the term Crusades as they continued to attempt to rid the land of people deemed enemies of the Church.

Maybe Off Topic can actually treat this thread maturely enough to provide some quality answers for you.
 

Linflas

Lifer
Jan 30, 2001
15,395
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Originally posted by: bwanaaa
1000 years ago, christian dogma said it was good to kill heathens to spread christianity (viz The Crusades). Likewise, the heathens killed all the christians they could get their hands on, so their team could win. How is it that christianity evolved out of this doctrine but the heathens still haven't?

Is it because the the Europeans discovered the new world and realized that the church really didnt know it all? That the church had no clue about the riches of the new world? and perhaps its precepts of violence as an accepted behavior were best buried?

Would an equivalent 'discovery' by the people led by these other 'stuck in the past' religions get them to abandon violence?

There was a hell of a lot more to the Crusades than that simplistic statement implies. Eurpopean Christians didn't just get bored and decide to go fight Islam because Christian dogma said they were heathens.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,862
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Originally posted by: NiteWulf
I think it's important to note that whatever the dogma of the given religion, violence by believers is never promoted in the New Testament and is spoken against. The crusades were not "Christian" wars. They were possible because the Catholic church was in a position of power. During the Reformation people started rejecting the Catholic church/papacy and started to get back to the teachings of the Bible (though today most aren't much closer).

Christianity hasn't changed at all since completion of the Bible, it's just that people's practice of it has changed


?
the bible is filled with violence. looked at in the original context the commandment to not murder really applies to other jews only. stoning for adultery and other nonsense isn't what people were trying to get closer to. people were beginning to reject the teachings they found absurd. the new testament is not much better than the old.
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/nt.html

they changed alright, but not in the way you are saying. if they had gotten more literal the world would be like the middle east everywhere. they started to reject parts based on reason. course this is still imperfect as many will not acknowledge either because they cannot bear to admit it or are ignorant of the horrors in the scripture.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,981
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Originally posted by: KermitM42
Originally posted by: lousydood
1) It doesn't help that you call them 'heathens.'

2) Westerners non-violent? Have you bothered to open a newspaper, ever?

Not to mention, the moment the Europeans discovered the "New" world, they engaged in a systematic slaughter of indigenous peoples. "Precepts of violence" didn't go anywhere.

Whenever I hear someone describe themselves as Christian, I wince, because 99% of the time they are a gigantic hypocrite.

What is this doing on highly technical?

you're forgetting the persecution of the mormons in the mid-west. i believe it was missouri (not 100%) actually issued a full scale state wide extermination of the mormons in the 1800's. non-violent??

Is being Mormon a religion???
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
2
81
What happened to 'treat your neighbors as you would treat yourself'?
 

raad11

Junior Member
Jul 19, 2007
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0
Originally posted by: bwanaaa
1000 years ago, christian dogma said it was good to kill heathens to spread christianity (viz The Crusades). Likewise, the heathens killed all the christians they could get their hands on, so their team could win. How is it that christianity evolved out of this doctrine but the heathens still haven't?

Is it because the the Europeans discovered the new world and realized that the church really didnt know it all? That the church had no clue about the riches of the new world? and perhaps its precepts of violence as an accepted behavior were best buried?

Would an equivalent 'discovery' by the people led by these other 'stuck in the past' religions get them to abandon violence?
Well, nothing has changed. It's just that the 'heathens' in this case (Muslims I'm assuming?) are still around and Christianity has passed on and been replaced by things like Capitalism, Secularism, Communism, Socialism, etc. all acting like religions unto themselves and serving the role previously occupied by Christianity.

And in that sense, Capitalists/Communists/etc. are still killing all that they can in their own ways, since Christianity's traditional 'crusading' is out of vogue. Instead of a Crusade to free the holy land, we have economic policies designed to exploit foreign markets for instance... end result, poverty reigns in certain areas and people die so wealth can accumulate elsewhere. Communists have had a more old-school way of killing people, and so did some flavors of Socialism (Nazis).

Some things will never change.

btw, Muslims have a pretty hard-coded, recent religion so they'll be less likely to evolve into something else.
 

NiteWulf

Golden Member
Jan 3, 2003
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1
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Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
Originally posted by: NiteWulf
I think it's important to note that whatever the dogma of the given religion, violence by believers is never promoted in the New Testament and is spoken against. The crusades were not "Christian" wars. They were possible because the Catholic church was in a position of power. During the Reformation people started rejecting the Catholic church/papacy and started to get back to the teachings of the Bible (though today most aren't much closer).

Christianity hasn't changed at all since completion of the Bible, it's just that people's practice of it has changed


?
the bible is filled with violence. looked at in the original context the commandment to not murder really applies to other jews only. stoning for adultery and other nonsense isn't what people were trying to get closer to. people were beginning to reject the teachings they found absurd. the new testament is not much better than the old.
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/nt.html

they changed alright, but not in the way you are saying. if they had gotten more literal the world would be like the middle east everywhere. they started to reject parts based on reason. course this is still imperfect as many will not acknowledge either because they cannot bear to admit it or are ignorant of the horrors in the scripture.
Sure, the law of Moses was for the Jews only, but it is obvious that Christians are not to murder anyone. The New Testament law replaced the law of Moses, so Jews are no longer required to execute physical justice on a personal level.

I have limited experience with the SAB, but reading that page I find it to be wildly biased. I hope it's not your only source. However, there are no verses which tell Christians to act violently.
 

Darthvoy

Golden Member
Aug 3, 2004
1,826
1
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Originally posted by: AllGamer
Violence is always used as their only resort to resolve their conflicts.
Humans are still animals, you can't deny that fact.
Thus naturally you can not avoid you primal instincts.

The true and only way to resolve violence is for BioResearches and Scientist to find a way to strip that Code from our DNA.
Which basically means creating a new race of Humans, that are no longer attached to their past.

But this on its own then it can create another big problem.... the Mass genocide between Primal Humans vs. Scientifically Corrected Humans...

and then, maybe then, after all the Old humans (us) are all dead, then the New Humans will make the perfect world without violence.

BTW, the above scenario is triggered when Old humans, as usual, turns into fear of the new humans, and start to kill the new humans, but then the new humans defends their race by eliminating the old humans as their next logical point of action.

yes the new humans will very much act like androids or computers, since being stripped out of their primordial animal instincts they can only act and think logically like a computer AI.

so it's either a Genocide War, or They run to another planet, if they are the "peace" loving types that doesn't fight back due the lack of their primordial instincts

***head assplodes***

 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,414
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the crusades were more about providing an outlet for human violence that wasn't against other christians than actually about killing heathens.


this 'evolution' you're discussing has more to do with increased literacy and knowledge amongst the general populace than anything else. i wonder if we're witnessing that sort of thing going on in the muslim world right now. remember that christianity took centuries to go through those growing pangs. (so jon stewart's demand for a baby in reply to condoleeza rice's statement that we're seeing the birth of a new middle east is probably jumping the gun).
 

AmpedSilence

Platinum Member
Oct 7, 2005
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Originally posted by: NiteWulf

they changed alright, but not in the way you are saying. if they had gotten more literal the world would be like the middle east everywhere. they started to reject parts based on reason. course this is still imperfect as many will not acknowledge either because they cannot bear to admit it or are ignorant of the horrors in the scripture.
Sure, the law of Moses was for the Jews only, but it is obvious that Christians are not to murder anyone. The New Testament law replaced the law of Moses, so Jews are no longer required to execute physical justice on a personal level.

I have limited experience with the SAB, but reading that page I find it to be wildly biased. I hope it's not your only source. However, there are no verses which tell Christians to act violently.[/quote]

Of Course, there is also nothing written in the Torah about killing people who don't believe, same with most of the Hindu texts. At most religious cores, they all say the same thing... be good to your fellow man and live a good life and you will be rewarded in the after life (or eventually in the case of Hinduism).

But in these religions you violence. Why? People are just misinterpreting the written word. What can you do???
 

Nik

Lifer
Jun 5, 2006
16,125
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56
Originally posted by: bwanaaa
1000 years ago, christian dogma said it was good to kill heathens to spread christianity (viz The Crusades). Likewise, the heathens killed all the christians they could get their hands on, so their team could win. How is it that christianity evolved out of this doctrine but the heathens still haven't?

Is it because the the Europeans discovered the new world and realized that the church really didnt know it all? That the church had no clue about the riches of the new world? and perhaps its precepts of violence as an accepted behavior were best buried?

Would an equivalent 'discovery' by the people led by these other 'stuck in the past' religions get them to abandon violence?

Christ's death fulfilled Old Testament law, fulfilled the promise to Abraham. Christ's new law/covenant changed the rules. "Heathens" as you call them (I like to call them logically-thinking individuals who are firmly grounded in reality) haven't changed because ... well because they're Heathens. ;)
 

KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
29,159
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Not to thread jack, but can you still be a Catholic while denying that the Pope is infallible?