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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
14,933
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Captante said:
However they DO alter peoples perception of said reality and "perception of reality" can absolutely change things. (did you somehow sleep through the last 2 years ?!?)

I stand by what I said. ;)
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There's an intermediate step there, though - of actions. Perceptions don't directly change reality, they only do so insofar as they influence actions, and only to the extent that people are actually in a position to act in an efficacious manner. The fetishisation of optimism seems to me to be a potential facilitator of victim-blaming.
 
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Captante

Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
30,340
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pmv said:
There's an intermediate step there, though - of actions. Perceptions don't directly change reality, they only do so insofar as they influence actions, and only to the extent that people are actually in a position to act in an efficacious manner. The fetishisation of optimism seems to me to be a potential facilitator of victim-blaming.
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You and Torn Mind have a lot in common! ;)
 
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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
14,933
9,834
136
Captante said:
You and Torn Mind have a lot in common! ;)
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As it happens he's not a poster that falls into either extreme for me - sometimes I agree with him, other times I think he's entirely wrong. So I'm sure we have at least a bit in common (I leave it as an exercise for the reader to decide which bit that is).

Anyway, it seems to me that idealism - which is the philosophy of those who promote optimism or positive-thinking, and which seems to be to be the underlying philosophy of CBT - always ends up supporting the status-quo at the expense of those with less power. It's a right-wing philosophy, because it always ends up concluding that nothing in the real world needs to change, the oppressed or disadvantaged just have to learn to change their thinking in order to be happy with being oppressed or disadvantaged. It leads to quietism and victim-blaming.

On a personal level, I have a negative attitude to all that because of all those years of being told the pains and deeply unpleasant sensations I was experiencing were due to my focusing on those sensations too much and that I needed to challenge my negative thoughts. Then they, belatedly, found it was due to a life-threatening congenital illness. Had I listened to those who told me it was all due to my "perceptions", and stopped looking for a physical cause, it wouldn't have been found and treated and I'd have gone on to die from it. No doubt they'd have then told me I was only dead because of my pessimistic attitude, and if I just thought more positive thoughts I'd come back to life again.
 
Torn Mind

Torn Mind

Lifer
Nov 25, 2012
12,046
2,763
136
Captante said:
You and Torn Mind have a lot in common! ;)
Click to expand...

I do like him, he's a thinker.

Given that the entire discussion is an interpretation of lyrics, there can be many walls of text fleshing out the line and how it applies to particular contexts.

The term optimism can trigger many connotations along with its dictionary definition. Oftentimes, optimism comes with delusion as certain situations do not come out favorably.

I think part of this discussion is simply finding the correct adjective, and I don't think optimism is quite the right word. It is not that the anorexic would think their bodily analogue to a half-filled glass, which is their weight, is half empty. It's that it is totally empty even though it is half-filled.

I'm a positive but not an optimistic guy. I despise delusion and being delusional; even as a kid, I wanted to play with "real things". But, it is highly unlikely I will be in a mental crisis of despair like the OP or anorexics, depressed people, or some other manifestation of miscalibrated thought . I could...given the right triggers, be an explosive powder keg.
 
Lost_in_the_HTTP

Lost_in_the_HTTP

Lifer
Nov 17, 2019
13,229
7,851
136
Lost_in_the_HTTP said:
----------

Sold a yard widget Tuesday. Guy gave me 7 - $100 bills. Went to town and gave 3 of them to a clerk for a $200+ purchase. Just going through things and I still have 5 of them plus the change from the store. Must have stuck together and he gave me 8 instead of 7.

I know what to do. I just need to figure out how to write the email so it doesn't sound too scammy. 'Hey Dude, I need your address so I can send you some money you overpaid me ....' He hasn't contacted me to ask about it.
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Sent Dude an email a week ago. Told him what was what. Replied, acknowledging the message. Said he'd get back to me. Nothing further so far.
 
Lost_in_the_HTTP

Lost_in_the_HTTP

Lifer
Nov 17, 2019
13,229
7,851
136
Trust me. I know what I'm doing.


WK-BA205_TV_DVD_G_20111208172730.jpg
 
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nakedfrog

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
61,775
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pmv said:
As it happens he's not a poster that falls into either extreme for me - sometimes I agree with him, other times I think he's entirely wrong. So I'm sure we have at least a bit in common (I leave it as an exercise for the reader to decide which bit that is).

Anyway, it seems to me that idealism - which is the philosophy of those who promote optimism or positive-thinking, and which seems to be to be the underlying philosophy of CBT - always ends up supporting the status-quo at the expense of those with less power. It's a right-wing philosophy, because it always ends up concluding that nothing in the real world needs to change, the oppressed or disadvantaged just have to learn to change their thinking in order to be happy with being oppressed or disadvantaged. It leads to quietism and victim-blaming.
Click to expand...
To me, optimism is believing that things can change to improve the lot of the oppressed/disadvantaged, not the notion that if they'd just change their thinking they'd be happy.
 
Shmee

Shmee

Memory & Storage, Graphics Cards Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 13, 2008
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Maybe you should get a pet. They are nice.
 
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