Ever notice that people who don't vote because "they're both bad..."

[Capt Caveman]

Originally posted by: Praxis1452

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: SleepWalkerX

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman


No, what I'm saying that you're too lazy and ignorant to realize that we live in a democracy where people have the opportunity to decide on their elected officials, economic policies, social issues, local issues, etc.

And how are you going to go to prison?

Again, you are the worse kind of American. A coward and a cry baby.

I'm a coward because I won't grovel?

The 'people' (what I call the 'horde') have chosen to vote themselves a completely ridiculous amount of resources from the government. You are promoting a system that is quickly heading towards collapse, and supposedly I'm the coward for taking the principled position of refusing to engage in log rolling and being thrown a small bone to shut up.

Wow. You don't believe in democracy? You really can't be this ignorant. You're lazy face it. You don't want to change the system by getting involved b/c then you wouldn't have someone to blame for your lot in life.

If more people thought like you, we'd still be a British colony.

The lazy people will vote anyway, even if it violates their ethical principles. All they want is their side to win because otherwise if the other side wins, they might lose through taxation and whatever.

Democracy is evil. It simply justifies the majority doing whatever they please because they have more numbers.

I don't know about your life, but I'm living a free life! I can happily say that I haven't justified stealing from another person (taxation, wealth redistribution), murdering innocent individuals (war), etc. By not participating in your system, I'm happy to say I've contributed more positively to society than you have.

How have you contributed more positively to society than I have? Are you a doctor? Do you volunteer? Contribute to charities?

Dissipate says he doesn't vote, so what are you talking about?

Why are you in the US if you don't believe in Democracy? What country are you planning on moving to? Are you currently not paying taxes? B/c if you are paying taxes, you're supporting the war and the murdering of innocents, stealing from others(wealth distribution), etc. By not voting, not participating in the democratic process you're accepting whatever is being done to you. So, quit crying.

You basically just said, 'the only way one is allowed to change democracy is to be democratic'. Nice... I'm sure there's no contradiction involved there at all. One would not possible become the institution he or she is trying to change.

In a similar manner, the people who vote are responsible for the actions of the country and the policy espoused by the government. Hey you voted, and you supported democracy itself. Blowback, the economy, hey, it's all your fault. Accept it, you caused it by voting, you made it your responsibility.

What are you talking about? If I voted Democrat in the last two elections, I was against Bush and against what happened to this country. If some of you lazy people voted, the current state of this country may not be what it is. So I can easily shoot it back to you and say your responsible for this current situation.

Please tell me how contradictory it is to get involved with the democratic process? So, doing nothing accomplishes what? Gives you a reason to blame somebody else for your lot in life?

 

[SleepWalkerX]

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

How have you contributed more positively to society than I have? Are you a doctor? Do you volunteer? Contribute to charities?

I know that my refusal to acknowledge consent means I am not responsible for the blood of innocent Iraqis. I know that I am not responsible for others stealing from me and using funds to commit terrorist acts like murdering others and silencing free speech. This isn't a video-game, real people are dead. Real people are still dying. By voting you are saying, "I allow death to continually occur because I've given up my own ethics to allow some other person to make decisions for me." This is a cop-out. Are you ok with murder or are you against murder? If Obama is against murder and occupation of another person's land then he'd immediately withdraw troops. Its that simple.

I used to volunteer by working within the system to gain certain rights back. However, I then ran into a friend that said she was collecting signatures to prevent birth control from being outlawed in my state. Now I'm certain our politicians don't give two shits about our freedom. I must claim it, I'd rather illegally make sure birth control gets in the hands of my friends than beg the State for our freedom back.

I haven't contributed to a charity recently, but I have donated to peaceful organizations. I respect charities, but I'd much rather help a man learn how to fish than give him a fish. If there exists a charity worth my time I may choose to contribute to it.

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Dissipate says he doesn't vote, so what are you talking about?

We're talking about the same thing. We're talking about what your vote contributes to.

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Why are you in the US if you don't believe in Democracy? What country are you planning on moving to? Are you currently not paying taxes? B/c if you are, you're supporting the war and the murdering of innocents, stealing from others(wealth distribution), etc. By not voting, not participating in the democratic process you're accepting whatever is being done to you. So, quit crying.

This is the land I grew up in. I currently am not planning on moving to another country, but with our current economic crisis, who knows? I'm definitely moving out of my state once I'm out of college, but I'm not going to run away with the hopes that some other evil enterprise will not steal my land and wealth. I'd rather fight for it now.

Correct, but I acknowledge that I'm better than that. I'm better than some callous, evil, piece-of-trash who thinks he can manage a war better than I could. That's avoiding the issue, war is wrong.

 

[pontifex]

Originally posted by: Praxis1452

Originally posted by: pontifex
Would you rather have someone go in and randomly vote or would you rather not have them vote all? serious question here - curious what others think on that

If the current system is acceptable to them and the candidate truly represents the ideals that they believe in, I don't see why they shouldn't vote.

 

[Brainonska511]

Originally posted by: Praxis1452
In a similar manner, the people who vote are responsible for the actions of the country and the policy espoused by the government. Hey you voted, and you supported democracy itself. Blowback, the economy, hey, it's all your fault. Accept it, you caused it by voting, you made it your responsibility.

That's dumb logic, seeing as how we DO NOT live in a democracy. We live in a republic. If you're a little slow, it means we elect people to make decisions for us. Voting does not make the individual responsible for the acts of the elected government. Additionally, if you vote for people that were against the policies of the current government, how could you be responsible for the policies originally? (and again, see the first part about individuals not be responsible for the actions of the government).

 

[babylon5]

2 party system, both paid for and corrupted by the same corporate interests.

So much for choice.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Originally posted by: SleepWalkerX

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

How have you contributed more positively to society than I have? Are you a doctor? Do you volunteer? Contribute to charities?

I know that my refusal to acknowledge consent means I am not responsible for the blood of innocent Iraqis. I know that I am not responsible for others stealing from me and using funds to commit terrorist acts like murdering others and silencing free speech. This isn't a video-game, real people are dead. Real people are still dying. By voting you are saying, "I allow death to continually occur because I've given up my own ethics to allow some other person to make decisions for me." This is a cop-out. Are you ok with murder or are you against murder? If Obama is against murder and occupation of another person's land then he'd immediately withdraw troops. Its that simple.

I used to volunteer by working within the system to gain certain rights back. However, I then ran into a friend that said she was collecting signatures to prevent birth control from being outlawed in my state. Now I'm certain our politicians don't give two shits about our freedom. I must claim it, I'd rather illegally make sure birth control gets in the hands of my friends than beg the State for our freedom back.

I haven't contributed to a charity recently, but I have donated to peaceful organizations. I respect charities, but I'd much rather help a man learn how to fish than give him a fish. If there exists a charity worth my time I may choose to contribute to it.

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Dissipate says he doesn't vote, so what are you talking about?

We're talking about the same thing. We're talking about what your vote contributes to.

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Why are you in the US if you don't believe in Democracy? What country are you planning on moving to? Are you currently not paying taxes? B/c if you are, you're supporting the war and the murdering of innocents, stealing from others(wealth distribution), etc. By not voting, not participating in the democratic process you're accepting whatever is being done to you. So, quit crying.

This is the land I grew up in. I currently am not planning on moving to another country, but with our current economic crisis, who knows? I'm definitely moving out of my state once I'm out of college, but I'm not going to run away with the hopes that some other evil enterprise will not steal my land and wealth. I'd rather fight for it now.

Correct, but I acknowledge that I'm better than that. I'm better than some callous, evil, piece-of-trash who thinks he can manage a war better than I could. That's avoiding the issue, war is wrong.

You make no sense. You could vote for someone that's against the war. You could vote for a reduction in your taxes.

Instead, you do nothing and support the current political leaders by paying taxes to the gov't that you say is murdering people.

Oh wait, you're in college. You don't pay any taxes. It all makes sense now.

And how are you going to fight for your rights if you don't plan to be involved in the democratic process?

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: johnjohn320
...can't actually explain a single damn major policy of either candidate to you? C'mon people, fess up: These are two extremely different candidates who have VERY different plans for the country. If you didn't bother to formulate an opinion and vote, it's because you're too damn stupid/lazy/self-absorbed.

agreed.

 

[manowar821]

Originally posted by: Rockinacoustic
I don't care if you write in Mickey Mouse. Refusing to vote is a slap in the face to the ideals of this country and the people who have fought to uphold them.

Just to play devils advocate... Why should we care? Should being born in a specific country be a shackle? To some, country is a barrier, not a savior... Regardless of how "free" it may be comparatively to other nations.

 

[ModerateRepZero]

Diss and Sleep's illogic makes my head hurt....

You realize the government hasn't fundamentally changed since World War II, right?

Voting itself is an act of cowardice. It is putting power in the hands of people who are willing to get their hands much dirtier than your own.

I refuse to grovel or lick the boots of any politician. That's what they want you to do, beg them for a tax cut or some government program. They will surely cut you a deal here and there as they collect their fat six figure salaries and funnel billions of stolen tax loot into the military industrial complex, big corporations and banks.

Trying to change things through the political process is implying you are at the mercy of these jackbooted thugs in suits, and is also extremely time consuming and costly. It just ends in more government power.
I do a cost benefit analysis of how/when I will dissent. For instance, I am currently contesting a red light camera ticket, and I have decided to throw all future jury duty notices in the garbage.

So you are implying that I am a coward because I'm not willing to do something that will give the thugs an excuse to throw me in prison? Gotcha. All I have to say is: you first. Maybe you can join the Browns.

I'm a coward because I won't grovel?
The 'people' (what I call the 'horde') have chosen to vote themselves a completely ridiculous amount of resources from the government. You are promoting a system that is quickly heading towards collapse, and supposedly I'm the coward for taking the principled position of refusing to engage in log rolling and being thrown a small bone to shut up.

The government hasn't fundamentally changed since World War II? How about no longer practicing an isolationist foreign policy and becoming more involved (or for the detractors, meddling) in other nation's affairs, joining the United Nations, and espousing a preventive if not preemptive national security policy under George W. Bush for starters? Your ignorance of American history is appalling if you sincerely believe otherwise.

Voting is an act of pragmatism since no country has successfully practiced democracy on a large scale. Certain Greek States to my knowledge came close to a "democracy", although it should be noted that they fell short of the ideal "democracy" in contemporary times (ie. very restrictive suffrage). And as other people have pointed out, it is quite possible to vote or otherwise support someone who opposes current policies. Since the opposition can become the leaders or the majority, I don't see how "worthless" voting is.

You don't want to horse-trade? Then don't get into politics. One reason why campaigning is so expensive is because advertising costs ALOT of money. How do politicians get money? They have to raise it (although personal wealth can offset some of the cost, few politicians are wealthy or daring enough to spend MUCH of their net worth running for office a la Corzine). And guess what? Until Obama tapped into the internet to raise money, it was more effective to tap some big donors for money. More money, less people to stump for fundraising. Ordinary folks tend to be apathetic or contribute small amounts, or none...like YOU.

Funny, some people went thru the political process like Martin Luther King. The govt. may have tried to roll back some of the results, but today sure as hell isn't 1954 with separate-but-equal facilities.

I personally think you're full of excuses and trying to be a free-rider. You have this idea of government being one big homogenous body and a monolithic power. And yet you ignore civil disobedients like Thoreau or King as well as lump individuals like Obama to Cheney or Bush (aside from all being male Americans, no rational and informed person would argue that they are the same). Hate to ruin your fantasy, but just hanging obama or libertarian signs in your house isn't going to get you on the FBI watchlist or interviewed. you're not THAT important.

Anyone can criticize and point out flaws. But few will actually try to change the process or propose reasonable changes or alternatives. I say you're a free-rider and a coward since you're practicing silent resistance. It's as unimpressive as the archaic idea that mentally qualifying a statement means that you're not telling a lie (I agree, my king *not really*).

 

[Praxis1452]

Originally posted by: Brainonska511

Originally posted by: Praxis1452
In a similar manner, the people who vote are responsible for the actions of the country and the policy espoused by the government. Hey you voted, and you supported democracy itself. Blowback, the economy, hey, it's all your fault. Accept it, you caused it by voting, you made it your responsibility.

That's dumb logic, seeing as how we DO NOT live in a democracy. We live in a republic. If you're a little slow, it means we elect people to make decisions for us. Voting does not make the individual responsible for the acts of the elected government. Additionally, if you vote for people that were against the policies of the current government, how could you be responsible for the policies originally? (and again, see the first part about individuals not be responsible for the actions of the government).

You affirm the system, you are responsible for it. Once you vote you have supported the candidate for his term regardless of the decisions he makes.

Oh and typing the same thing three times doesn't really make it any more true.

Yes, we live in a republic, and you elect people to make decisions for you. Then aren't you responsible in some part for the decisions the candidate makes? It's like saying, "sure I elected him but the people are not to blame whatsoever. Its.... only him, not anyone who helped him gain power, not the people who helped him make decisions, not the lobbyists, nope. I mean, he told me what he was going to do, and I voted for him but... it's not my fault."

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: Praxis1452

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: SleepWalkerX

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman


No, what I'm saying that you're too lazy and ignorant to realize that we live in a democracy where people have the opportunity to decide on their elected officials, economic policies, social issues, local issues, etc.

And how are you going to go to prison?

Again, you are the worse kind of American. A coward and a cry baby.

I'm a coward because I won't grovel?

The 'people' (what I call the 'horde') have chosen to vote themselves a completely ridiculous amount of resources from the government. You are promoting a system that is quickly heading towards collapse, and supposedly I'm the coward for taking the principled position of refusing to engage in log rolling and being thrown a small bone to shut up.

Wow. You don't believe in democracy? You really can't be this ignorant. You're lazy face it. You don't want to change the system by getting involved b/c then you wouldn't have someone to blame for your lot in life.

If more people thought like you, we'd still be a British colony.

The lazy people will vote anyway, even if it violates their ethical principles. All they want is their side to win because otherwise if the other side wins, they might lose through taxation and whatever.

Democracy is evil. It simply justifies the majority doing whatever they please because they have more numbers.

I don't know about your life, but I'm living a free life! I can happily say that I haven't justified stealing from another person (taxation, wealth redistribution), murdering innocent individuals (war), etc. By not participating in your system, I'm happy to say I've contributed more positively to society than you have.

How have you contributed more positively to society than I have? Are you a doctor? Do you volunteer? Contribute to charities?

Dissipate says he doesn't vote, so what are you talking about?

Why are you in the US if you don't believe in Democracy? What country are you planning on moving to? Are you currently not paying taxes? B/c if you are paying taxes, you're supporting the war and the murdering of innocents, stealing from others(wealth distribution), etc. By not voting, not participating in the democratic process you're accepting whatever is being done to you. So, quit crying.

You basically just said, 'the only way one is allowed to change democracy is to be democratic'. Nice... I'm sure there's no contradiction involved there at all. One would not possible become the institution he or she is trying to change.

In a similar manner, the people who vote are responsible for the actions of the country and the policy espoused by the government. Hey you voted, and you supported democracy itself. Blowback, the economy, hey, it's all your fault. Accept it, you caused it by voting, you made it your responsibility.

What are you talking about? If I voted Democrat in the last two elections, I was against Bush and against what happened to this country. If some of you lazy people voted, the current state of this country may not be what it is. So I can easily shoot it back to you and say your responsible for this current situation.

Please tell me how contradictory it is to get involved with the democratic process? So, doing nothing accomplishes what? Gives you a reason to blame somebody else for your lot in life?

By voting you Recognize the current system and accept it. Sure, you can change the system but you believe in the ideals of the system itself. Voting is a re-affirmation of democracy because you believe that change is supposed to be done through special processes i.e. elections and lobbying.

Voting is a power/right. It is useful and has a purpose. If you use that power to re-affirm the system for change then you are responsible for the outcome.

Power->Responsibility

voting means you are using your power and thereby are responsible for the effects of it.

 

[dderidex]

Originally posted by: TallBill

Originally posted by: Gooberlx2

Ever notice that people who don't vote because "they're both bad..."

...never take a second to consider all the local/statewide issues on their ballot which have more direct impact on their lives. There's a whole lot more to election day than just voting for prez.

This, and I barely knew anything about any of my local candidates. It was embarrassing.

This is why voting in Oregon is awesome. It's by mail. We got the ballots WEEKS ago, and has as long as we wanted to research every item on it in detail before voting on it. Didn't have to note them all down in one pass or anything. Could research one issue one day, vote on that, issue another on a different day, vote on that, get the ballot mailed in when done.

Brilliant!

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
If you can give me a tax table for either candidate, I'll admit that I'm a lazy, worthless bastard who is just too damn stupid/self-absorbed to vote. Until then, DIAF.

I'll point out that no one has yet been able to furnish me with a copy of either major candidates' tax tables and consider myself justified in abstaining. I can't justify voting for someone that won't even tell me what they stand for aside from some talking points.

 

[CKDragon]

I had never visited the P&N forums prior to ten minutes ago. I did not vote today for my own reasons. Feel free to get your kicks making categorical statements and whitewashing me as lazy and unpatriotic, as well, since I will not be around to see it.

 

[SleepWalkerX]

Originally posted by: ModerateRepZero

Voting is an act of pragmatism since no country has successfully practiced democracy on a large scale. Certain Greek States to my knowledge came close to a "democracy", although it should be noted that they fell short of the ideal "democracy" in contemporary times (ie. very restrictive suffrage). And as other people have pointed out, it is quite possible to vote or otherwise support someone who opposes current policies. Since the opposition can become the leaders or the majority, I don't see how "worthless" voting is.

How is voting pragmatic when we're had it throughout our history and we've ended up with (relatively speaking) less freedom? The only real freedom we've gotten is the kind we've claimed, like the rights of African Americans and women. Hell, we couldn't even abolish slavery without war! If the kind of pragmatism you're looking for it continuous war, reckless spending, and theft then you've got it! Now officially Obama approved!

Originally posted by: ModerateRepZero
You don't want to horse-trade? Then don't get into politics. One reason why campaigning is so expensive is because advertising costs ALOT of money. How do politicians get money? They have to raise it (although personal wealth can offset some of the cost, few politicians are wealthy or daring enough to spend MUCH of their net worth running for office a la Corzine). And guess what? Until Obama tapped into the internet to raise money, it was more effective to tap some big donors for money. More money, less people to stump for fundraising. Ordinary folks tend to be apathetic or contribute small amounts, or none...like YOU.

I contributed $50 to Ron Paul and $10 to Bob Conley (local guy running for Lindsay Graham's position) when I was an optimistic Libertarian. I'm glad Ron put the cash towards books and education about the benefits liberty and free trade, but ultimately I threw money towards a cause that wouldn't matter if Ron Paul became elected or not. Its impossible to create positive change from within the system because the system is the problem.

Originally posted by: ModerateRepZero
Funny, some people went thru the political process like Martin Luther King. The govt. may have tried to roll back some of the results, but today sure as hell isn't 1954 with separate-but-equal facilities.

Oh yes, oh so different. When gays are only permitted civil unions while straights are allowed marriage its not the same thing as picking on blacks because there are no facilities involved.

Originally posted by: ModerateRepZero
I personally think you're full of excuses and trying to be a free-rider. You have this idea of government being one big homogenous body and a monolithic power. And yet you ignore civil disobedients like Thoreau or King as well as lump individuals like Obama to Cheney or Bush (aside from all being male Americans, no rational and informed person would argue that they are the same). Hate to ruin your fantasy, but just hanging obama or libertarian signs in your house isn't going to get you on the FBI watchlist or interviewed. you're not THAT important.

Free-riding? The real question is, what have they done to earn my money? If they had voluntarily offered their garbage collection services, road services, and water services then I would be fine with paying. But they are taking my money, saying they'll provide me with such services, and telling me that my money will go towards other cool side benefits, like war on other countries! And I have no choice but to fund their crap or get thrown in a box with a gun pointed at me.

I've quoted MLK several times and maintain respect for Thoreau; these rebels have put forth and practiced the true ideas of freedom and liberty.

And I hope you're right. I'm an anti-establishment, pot smoking atheist. I'm the prime target if they were to start terrorizing today's minorities.

Originally posted by: ModerateRepZero
Anyone can criticize and point out flaws. But few will actually try to change the process or propose reasonable changes or alternatives. I say you're a free-rider and a coward since you're practicing silent resistance. It's as unimpressive as the archaic idea that mentally qualifying a statement means that you're not telling a lie (I agree, my king *not really*).

Not enough people are listening, yet. But again, I'm not too worried. This is the next step in human society's evolution. We are going to reach a point where we will realize that all governments intrude on our ability for all to pursue wealth and happiness.

 

[Eeezee]

Originally posted by: SleepWalkerX

Originally posted by: Eeezee

False

Not voting does more to 'preserve and continue the current political system' than voting.

But hey, if you really dislike our political system, then you have two choices

1) Work within it to change it (by voting, running for office, supporting like-minded individuals)
2) Leaving the country

You'll notice that neither of these options include 'sit on the couch and don't do anything because that's totally rad and the real way to create change'

Wrong. By voting you imply consent to the whole system. You acknowledge that the little voice you have means nothing once the other party's candidate wins because you've had your say and it has been illegitamized and overridden.

Working within the system has NEVER worked. Thatcher could NOT shrink the size of government no matter how hard she tried and Ron Paul will never be elected to the Office because the majority benefit from the establishment while the minority suffer. Working outside the system DOES! This is how blacks received the right to vote, how women received the right to vote, how the United States declared its right to self governance, how Gandhi lead the amount of people he did, etc, etc.

Leaving the country doesn't work because its simply running away from the problem. The violent and chaotic world will invade any area that has not already been claimed by the State. Its time for a paradigm shift. That's the only way we'll truly change into something better and not continue to plunder one another.

I suppose the Canadians had a bloody coup? :roll:

You're so wrong and you don't even know it. It's sad.

Also, we don't live in a Democracy, so your comments of Democracy being evil are meaningless.

 

[Eeezee]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
If you can give me a tax table for either candidate, I'll admit that I'm a lazy, worthless bastard who is just too damn stupid/self-absorbed to vote. Until then, DIAF.

I'll point out that no one has yet been able to furnish me with a copy of either major candidates' tax tables and consider myself justified in abstaining. I can't justify voting for someone that won't even tell me what they stand for aside from some talking points.

That's because what you're asking for is inane. The president doesn't set the tax table. He can have a preference, but he'll have to compromise with Congress.

 

[Wreckem]

Originally posted by: johnjohn320
...can't actually explain a single damn major policy of either candidate to you? C'mon people, fess up: These are two extremely different candidates who have VERY different plans for the country. If you didn't bother to formulate an opinion and vote, it's because you're too damn stupid/lazy/self-absorbed.

They are both bad, because they(and both parties) continue to not address the issues that need to be addressed.

The single most important issue that needs to be address is the solvency of the US Govt over the next 30 years. The main aspect of this is medicare and its $50-60trillion in liabilities. The left has tried to play up this looming recession as another great depression.

In 30 years, what we'll have is something far worse than the great depression if we continue not to address serious long term economic issues. The financial decisions the "leaders" of the United States have made since the great depression will come home to roast sooner rather than later. We are on a very bad path. Obama nor McCain only had plains to further damage this countries economic future.

I didnt vote in the Presidential race. I voted in all my local races(I care more about State/Local as it plays a bigger role in my life). The Presidential race was fairly meaningless to me.

 

[Eeezee]

Originally posted by: manowar821

Originally posted by: Rockinacoustic
I don't care if you write in Mickey Mouse. Refusing to vote is a slap in the face to the ideals of this country and the people who have fought to uphold them.

Just to play devils advocate... Why should we care? Should being born in a specific country be a shackle? To some, country is a barrier, not a savior... Regardless of how "free" it may be comparatively to other nations.

Because you choose to live here. Since you choose to live here, you should care about how it is run and why it is run that way.

If you really dislike the country that much, either try to change it or leave. Sitting on your ass won't accomplish anything.

Listen, I'm not calling you or anyone else who didn't vote unpatriotic or anything ridiculous like that. However, when I see a duck I'll call it a duck. Refusing to vote because you 'disagree with the system' but continue to go on living here without striving to change that very system is insane, at best.

By living in the system and refusing to change it (by voting or by other means), you are endorsing that very system. I'm looking at you, SleepWalkerX. Not voting is the best way to make sure that the system never changes. By not voting, you are in fact participating in the system whether you like it or not.

Here are your options if you dislike our political system

1) Move - You won't have to worry about the problems with the system if you leave and find another system, somewhere where they have a system of government more to your liking. No country is perfect, but you should be able to find a country with a government that you like the most, or at least a government that is more malleable.

2) Vote - Voting is a valid way of changing the system. This is a fact. Support candidates that want to change the system. If you want a constitutional monarchy, support representatives that will make this a reality. If you get enough support, eventually the Constitution will be overthrown and you'll get that constitutional monarchy.

3) Run for office - Become a leader for which other people will vote. This is an even BETTER way to change the system. You'll have more control over it in this way. Yes, it is possible to change the system from within.

4) Rebellion - This is self-explanatory. If you're really that dissatisfied but refuse to move, what other choice is there? Get some guns and start your bloody coup.

Either shit or get off the pot. My preferred mode of change is 2), possibly 3). What's yours? You're not moving, you're not voting, and you're not running for office. You're probably not starting a violent revolution. So what the fuck are you doing to change the system? This is an open question to all of the people who decided to not vote because they believe that this somehow changes our political system.

If you did not vote in 2000, then you're just as guilty as any Bush voter for the death of every Iraqi. You're delusional if you feel that somehow not voting removes you from the system and blame. If a few hundred non-voters in the right locations had voted for Gore in 2000, the Iraq war might have never happened.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Originally posted by: Praxis1452
By voting you Recognize the current system and accept it. Sure, you can change the system but you believe in the ideals of the system itself. Voting is a re-affirmation of democracy because you believe that change is supposed to be done through special processes i.e. elections and lobbying.

Voting is a power/right. It is useful and has a purpose. If you use that power to re-affirm the system for change then you are responsible for the outcome.

Power->Responsibility

voting means you are using your power and thereby are responsible for the effects of it.

You pay taxes and recognize the current system.

So, you don't want to vote and be responsible. That's pathetic.

 

[Praxis1452]

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: Praxis1452
By voting you Recognize the current system and accept it. Sure, you can change the system but you believe in the ideals of the system itself. Voting is a re-affirmation of democracy because you believe that change is supposed to be done through special processes i.e. elections and lobbying.

Voting is a power/right. It is useful and has a purpose. If you use that power to re-affirm the system for change then you are responsible for the outcome.

Power->Responsibility

voting means you are using your power and thereby are responsible for the effects of it.

You pay taxes and recognize the current system.

So, you don't want to vote and be responsible. That's pathetic.

And that's the crux of the issue: not paying taxes means I get sent to prison. I am oppressed by the majority of the present or by the actions of my ancestors.

I don't recognize the current system as legitimate. I do not believe that the state should have the power to coerce the individual in the name of a majority or in the name of freedom(lol).

I fail to see where I have contradicted myself. I am against the oppression of people through government and in the name of some higher principle, and yes it includes taxes.

Coercion is not belief. Your point is invalid as it assumes that by paying taxes one is automatically recognizing the system. Does the government exist? yes and there is no debate. Does it exist in a legitimate format? No and I would not use special processes such as voting and lobbying because they are part of the system itself.

Voting and lobbying still rely on a key principle, the idea that other should be subjected to the beliefs of a majority. I don't want other people to be forced to live by my ideals.

I'm sure other people will bring up examples where freedoms have been given by the use of political action. And? Freedoms were given! they were not inherent but were actually concepts the federal government could regulate and has in the past. I disagree with that concept entirely.

I hope I have explained it in a decent enough manner.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Eeezee
That's because what you're asking for is inane. The president doesn't set the tax table. He can have a preference, but he'll have to compromise with Congress.

That's all you have to fall back on after hundreds of millions of dollars were spent spreading talking points about what each of these idiots would do to your taxes after getting elected? They promised talking points, but neither has any substance to support them. Taxes were just one example that I use because it's very easy to track down their proposed tax "policy." The same is true about virtually every issue - lots of talk and no substance. I'm not going to vote for someone that won't even show me in writing what they're promising. Even if they do have it written down or stated explicitly, they will still break the promise 90% of the time. How much more will they do it now that it's not written down anywhere?

I'll also note that I started entire threads trying to tell people that the president doesn't set tax policy, yet no one seemed to grasp it, which is why this nation is going to go the way of the Roman Empire - give all of the power to the executive branch, diminish the power of the people, then watch as everything goes to hell in a handbasket. While it took them a while, we're on an accelerated schedule.

 

[sactoking]

Eh, this 'discussion' is worthless. It started as "Ever notice how people who don't vote can't explain anything about either candidate? They're lazy, scared losers." A bunch of people came in with other invectives about how you can't choose to not vote, not voting can ONLY be an excuse for some personal deficiency.

Yet, when presented with clear evidence that someone CAN evaluate a set of candidates and come away with the belief that they're BOTH the wrong person, everyone here ignores it.

 

[ModerateRepZero]

How is voting pragmatic when we're had it throughout our history and we've ended up with (relatively speaking) less freedom? The only real freedom we've gotten is the kind we've claimed, like the rights of African Americans and women. Hell, we couldn't even abolish slavery without war! If the kind of pragmatism you're looking for it continuous war, reckless spending, and theft then you've got it! Now officially Obama approved!

I contributed $50 to Ron Paul and $10 to Bob Conley (local guy running for Lindsay Graham's position) when I was an optimistic Libertarian. I'm glad Ron put the cash towards books and education about the benefits liberty and free trade, but ultimately I threw money towards a cause that wouldn't matter if Ron Paul became elected or not. Its impossible to create positive change from within the system because the system is the problem.

Oh yes, oh so different. When gays are only permitted civil unions while straights are allowed marriage its not the same thing as picking on blacks because there are no facilities involved.

Free-riding? The real question is, what have they done to earn my money? If they had voluntarily offered their garbage collection services, road services, and water services then I would be fine with paying. But they are taking my money, saying they'll provide me with such services, and telling me that my money will go towards other cool side benefits, like war on other countries! And I have no choice but to fund their crap or get thrown in a box with a gun pointed at me.

I've quoted MLK several times and maintain respect for Thoreau; these rebels have put forth and practiced the true ideas of freedom and liberty.

And I hope you're right. I'm an anti-establishment, pot smoking atheist. I'm the prime target if they were to start terrorizing today's minorities.

Not enough people are listening, yet. But again, I'm not too worried. This is the next step in human society's evolution. We are going to reach a point where we will realize that all governments intrude on our ability for all to pursue wealth and happiness.

And the African-American and women freedom / suffrage you mention came from democratic change, not from Black Panthers or Malcolm X. Not to mention isolationist foreign policy -> multilateral and involved foreign policy (which to a certain extent was needed).

The civil unions is not a suffrage issue. And in any case, you can't argue the fact that Americans are generally freer and have more suffrage than they did in the past. Afaik, gays have usually been denied the right to marry. We're arguing over the margins now, not on whether minorities or nonwhites are citizens and / or can't vote.

Government intrudes on our ability to pursue wealth and happiness because the reality is that not all individuals are able to protect themselves. I'm sure drug dealers want be wealthy and happy, but it's not quite a fair system if they forcefully take possession of other people's possessions. Likewise the murderer or swindler. Without government there is no police force to protect individuals consistently and uniformly. Bad luck for the unfortunate who can neither defend themselves nor have protection of their own. One view of government is that man existed in a "state of nature" and created a "social contract" forming a government to both provide for collective security and to settle disputes.

 

[Praxis1452]

Originally posted by: Eeezee

Originally posted by: manowar821

Originally posted by: Rockinacoustic
I don't care if you write in Mickey Mouse. Refusing to vote is a slap in the face to the ideals of this country and the people who have fought to uphold them.

Just to play devils advocate... Why should we care? Should being born in a specific country be a shackle? To some, country is a barrier, not a savior... Regardless of how "free" it may be comparatively to other nations.

Because you choose to live here. Since you choose to live here, you should care about how it is run and why it is run that way.

If you really dislike the country that much, either try to change it or leave. Sitting on your ass won't accomplish anything.

Listen, I'm not calling you or anyone else who didn't vote unpatriotic or anything ridiculous like that. However, when I see a duck I'll call it a duck. Refusing to vote because you 'disagree with the system' but continue to go on living here without striving to change that very system is insane, at best.

By living in the system and refusing to change it (by voting or by other means), you are endorsing that very system. I'm looking at you, SleepWalkerX. Not voting is the best way to make sure that the system never changes. By not voting, you are in fact participating in the system whether you like it or not.

Here are your options if you dislike our political system

1) Move - You won't have to worry about the problems with the system if you leave and find another system, somewhere where they have a system of government more to your liking. No country is perfect, but you should be able to find a country with a government that you like the most, or at least a government that is more malleable.

2) Vote - Voting is a valid way of changing the system. This is a fact. Support candidates that want to change the system. If you want a constitutional monarchy, support representatives that will make this a reality. If you get enough support, eventually the Constitution will be overthrown and you'll get that constitutional monarchy.

3) Run for office - Become a leader for which other people will vote. This is an even BETTER way to change the system. You'll have more control over it in this way. Yes, it is possible to change the system from within.

4) Rebellion - This is self-explanatory. If you're really that dissatisfied but refuse to move, what other choice is there? Get some guns and start your bloody coup.

Either shit or get off the pot. My preferred mode of change is 2), possibly 3). What's yours? You're not moving, you're not voting, and you're not running for office. You're probably not starting a violent revolution. So what the fuck are you doing to change the system? This is an open question to all of the people who decided to not vote because they believe that this somehow changes our political system.

If you did not vote in 2000, then you're just as guilty as any Bush voter for the death of every Iraqi. You're delusional if you feel that somehow not voting removes you from the system and blame. If a few hundred non-voters in the right locations had voted for Gore in 2000, the Iraq war might have never happened.

Lemme evaluate your options right there:

1) Run Away to.... Oh right. Nowhere.

2) Use your vote to oppress the people you disagree with. Nevermind this requires a majority of some form.

3) Use your shrewdness and get yourself elected so you can tell other people what to do instead of the opposite. Nevermind this requires a majority of some form.

4) Use your weapons to murder others and eliminate their freedom because you feel wronged. hmm... because the new system won't be based on violence or coercion. Right.

People live by the system because they are forced to. Remove the force in the first place. Oh wait... in a democracy that depends on a majority. In a republic that depends on the representatives forming a majority.

Voting means you endorse the majority in the first place and view it as a valid way of change. Some people don't believe in the right of majority.

Really quite simple. Democracy/(whatever your name for it is) is not all it's cracked up to be.

 

[johnjohn320]

Originally posted by: CKDragon
I had never visited the P&N forums prior to ten minutes ago. I did not vote today for my own reasons. Feel free to get your kicks making categorical statements and whitewashing me as lazy and unpatriotic, as well, since I will not be around to see it.

Thanks for your awesome contribution. Why did you post this?