European revolution - in our time or not?

[paulney]

What do you think are the chances we will see a revolution in Europe, started by the lower class population which desperately wants the entitlements and considers them their right, but can't have them? What do you think will be the trigger point?

As the division between those who have and those who have not widens, we've seen more and more sporadic outbursts of violence, barely contained by government forces, not adequately prepared for the magnitude of the violence.

In France the trigger was an immigrant youth electrocuted when he ran into transformer station chased by the cops. Now in London we see a very similar incident. In Greece huge riots started when the government had to take away the social entitlement programs in an effort to save the country from bankruptcy. Now Italy is next in line.

US is not immune either, although our violence was triggered by a natural disaster - it also happened in one of the poorest and most corrupt states where the disparity between upper and lower class is huge (Louisiana).

As the number of immigrants into Europe continuous to increase, and the social programs will continue to get cut in the current (and foreseeable) economy, what do you think is the likelihood that those same immigrants will take to arms, and Europe will not be prepared to deal with it? Which country will be the first in line?

Or will it happen in the US?

 

[CanOWorms]

I think that it will be the UK. People can only take so much austerity while funding the lifestyle of the royal family. The regime will topple if it does not enact fundamental changes.

Katrina was a localized incident and a natural disaster. The protests you listed are nation-wide incidents. Has the US experienced a recent nationwide protest on par with the UK, France, Greece, Tunisia, Egypt, and other countries in the Europe-Middle Eastern belt? I would argue that it would be a bit more difficult in the US because the society is structured around higher-paying jobs but with higher student loans. A large amount of the youth simply cannot protest because they are burdened with loans.

 

[MotF Bane]

Jesus paulney, this thread is like hanging a steak in front of a wolf to our resident Euro-hating puppets.

 

[paulney]

Motf, sorry, I rarely venture into P&N, but the recent events got me thinking. I don't claim to have much knowledge about Europe - I left it more than 12 years ago now. Maybe resident Europeans could chime in.

 

[RocksteadyDotNet]

If it's going to happen anywhere it will happen in the states.

The gap between the rich and the poor is so much larger in America than in Europe. The middle class is much larger in Europe.

Tho Europeans are more likely to riot as Americans dont seem to like disobeying their government.

 

[paulney]

If it's going to happen anywhere it will happen in the states.

The gap between the rich and the poor is so much larger in America than in Europe.

Tho Europeans are more likely to riot as Americans dont seem to like disobeying their government.

Hmmm.. I actually believe that Americans keep the government much more in check by virtue of allowing the citizens to be armed and resist the very same government, as opposed to European countries.

Americans also believe in individualism much more than in social fabric (and their beliefs that they can survive without the big bad govt seem to be perpetuated by the popularity of Tea Party movement). So, when you do take away the social care, the protests are on a much smaller scale than in Europe where everyone and their mother considers them to be their sacrificial right.

 

[glenn1]

General strike, riot, or revolution; the money isn't there to continue to pay for the welfare state no matter what the masses do.

 

[RocksteadyDotNet]

Hmmm.. I actually believe that Americans keep the government much more in check by virtue of allowing the citizens to be armed and resist the very same government, as opposed to European countries.

Americans also believe in individualism much more than in social fabric (and their beliefs that they can survive without the big bad govt seem to be perpetuated by the popularity of Tea Party movement). So, when you do take away the social care, the protests are on a much smaller scale than in Europe where everyone and their mother considers them to be their sacrificial right.

Don't turn this into a gun debate.

Americans are much more interested in controlling what people do. No prostitution, no drugs, limited gambling.

But business can do what they want.

 

[CanOWorms]

Actually, I'm going to have to reconsider my post. I don't think that European nations will get to achieve some sort of internal revolution. I think that most likely they will get invaded and reforms forced upon them by outsiders.

 

[ProfJohn]

Yea!!!

The poor are going to reach up and TAKE everything the rich have and then...

No more jobs, no more companies, no more paychecks, no more rich to pay the taxes...

Seriously... we are pissed that our welfare is being cut off so we are going to riot against the people who are paying for it!!!!

That doesn't work either...

Let me think about this some more...

 

[Argo]

If it's going to happen anywhere it will happen in the states.

The gap between the rich and the poor is so much larger in America than in Europe. The middle class is much larger in Europe.

I don't buy the middle class is bigger in europe argument. Care to back that up with numbers?

The few times I've been in europe everything seemed prohibitively expensive, and people lived in tiny houses that were smaller than an average American garage.

 

[Pens1566]

Shocked that spidey hasn't posted in this one yet. He's all about the coming class war.

 

[MovingTarget]

Yea!!!

The poor are going to reach up and TAKE everything the rich have and then...

No more jobs, no more companies, no more paychecks, no more rich to pay the taxes...

Seriously... we are pissed that our welfare is being cut off so we are going to riot against the people who are paying for it!!!!

That doesn't work either...

Let me think about this some more...

Yep, keep screwing over the poor, working, and middle classes and we break out the guillotines. Treat them propertly by hiring instead of hoarding, pay your fair of taxes to pay for the services that you benefit disproportionately from, and we respond by being content to spend money with your businesses. The rich will reap what they sow in America. Its up to them to decide whether they want to continue the class warfare that they are currently winning....but will eventually lose without a change in action.

 

[Nebor]

Jesus paulney, this thread is like hanging a steak in front of a wolf to our resident Euro-hating puppets.

This.

 

[RocksteadyDotNet]

I don't buy the middle class is bigger in europe argument. Care to back that up with numbers?

The few times I've been in europe everything seemed prohibitively expensive, and people lived in tiny houses that were smaller than an average American garage.

Someone posted some numbers the other day, I cant find em. Sorry mate.

But it makes sense. Social mobility is much easier in Europe. Threre's a lot of support, good public schools, cheap University etc.

If you're born poor in America you're kinda fucked. Where are you gonna get 100k for collage?

UHC and things like that make a difference too. Even if you're poor, getting sick doesnt ruin you.

 

[Infohawk]

Don't mix up ethnic minorities rioting with Europeans wanting their first world standard of living. Two separate issues. Something has to give with regards to the first world standard of living. The current unlimited globalization isn't sustainable. Hopefully governments will realize their population is not interested in China getting rich at their expense.

Jesus paulney, this thread is like hanging a steak in front of a wolf to our resident Euro-hating puppets.

Isn't it sad that every discussion about Europe has to be poisoned by their garbage?

 

[BarneyFife]

Yea!!!

The poor are going to reach up and TAKE everything the rich have and then...

No more jobs, no more companies, no more paychecks, no more rich to pay the taxes...

Seriously... we are pissed that our welfare is being cut off so we are going to riot against the people who are paying for it!!!!

That doesn't work either...

Let me think about this some more...

1400 millionaires didn't pay income taxes. GE paid $0 taxes. You are a joke.

 

[Nebor]

Yep, keep screwing over the poor, working, and middle classes and we break out the guillotines. Treat them propertly by hiring instead of hoarding, pay your fair of taxes to pay for the services that you benefit disproportionately from, and we respond by being content to spend money with your businesses. The rich will reap what they sow in America. Its up to them to decide whether they want to continue the class warfare that they are currently winning....but will eventually lose without a change in action.

Guillotines eh? How do those fair against the most advanced, well funded military in the world?

 

[sandorski]

Hmmm.. I actually believe that Americans keep the government much more in check by virtue of allowing the citizens to be armed and resist the very same government, as opposed to European countries.

Americans also believe in individualism much more than in social fabric (and their beliefs that they can survive without the big bad govt seem to be perpetuated by the popularity of Tea Party movement). So, when you do take away the social care, the protests are on a much smaller scale than in Europe where everyone and their mother considers them to be their sacrificial right.

This seems to be a popular belief amongst Americans, but I don't think it has much merit at all. The Gunless French force their Governments to back down more often in one decade than the Gun Strapped Americans have in all its' history. It's People and not Guns that keep Governments in check.

 

[Nebor]

This seems to be a popular belief amongst Americans, but I don't think it has much merit at all. The Gunless French force their Governments to back down more often in one decade than the Gun Strapped Americans have in all its' history. It's People and not Guns that keep Governments in check.

How'd that work out for the Libyans? Or most of the other middle eastern revolutionaries? They got slaughtered while begging the world for weapons.

 

[CanOWorms]

Don't mix up ethnic minorities rioting with Europeans wanting their first world standard of living. Two separate issues. Something has to give with regards to the first world standard of living. The current unlimited globalization isn't sustainable. Hopefully governments will realize their population is not interested in China getting rich at their expense.

Ethnic minorities are rioting because they want the first world standard of living. They are related issues.

They are also Europeans.

Isn't it sad that every discussion about Europe has to be poisoned by their garbage?

Maybe you should learn to keep your emotions in check.

 

[paulney]

Don't mix up ethnic minorities rioting with Europeans wanting their first world standard of living. Two separate issues. Something has to give with regards to the first world standard of living. The current unlimited globalization isn't sustainable. Hopefully governments will realize their population is not interested in China getting rich at their expense.

I think the two are inseparable. If you look at the ethnic and class composition of the people rioting, it's mostly the disenchanted and disenfranchised youth. They don't really have a long-term political agenda - it's 'stick it to the Man' and 'I want that cellphone for free'. They don't hold jobs, and are civilized enough to wear brand clothes (if they can afford them), but not enough to integrate into the European society.

Who does that leave us with? The ethnic minorities and the bottom of the ingenious population. The first one is the result of failed integration policies, while the second is deadweight formed as the result of generous social policies.

 

[Infohawk]

I think the two are inseparable. If you look at the ethnic and class composition of the people rioting, it's mostly the disenchanted and disenfranchised youth. They don't really have a long-term political agenda - it's 'stick it to the Man' and 'I want that cellphone for free'. They don't hold jobs, and are civilized enough to wear brand clothes (if they can afford them), but not enough to integrate into the European society.

Who does that leave us with? The ethnic minorities and the bottom of the ingenious population. The first one is the result of failed integration policies, while the second is deadweight formed as the result of generous social policies.

Look at the demonstrations in Israel. They're complaining about the rising cost of middle-class living. Those are just ordinary middle-class Israelis. Middle and working class Europeans have protests about welfare protections. These are separate from the rioting and looting that going on. There is no purpose to the rioting and looting.

 

[MovingTarget]

Guillotines eh? How do those fair against the most advanced, well funded military in the world?

Quite well, if enough people are pissed off enough to use them. Besides, people in the military are people too. Many of them, especially those in the lower ranks, aren't exactly Scrooge McDuck.

 

[Fern]

1400 millionaires didn't pay income taxes.
-snip-

As a tax professional I'm quite interested in reading more about this. Would you please provide a link?

Theoretically it's possible, but unlikely for a number of reasons I won't go into here.

BTW: I'm assuming you mean legally avoiding taxes, and I assume you mean income taxes.

TIA

Fern