-
We’re currently investigating an issue related to the forum theme and styling that is impacting page layout and visual formatting. The problem has been identified, and we are actively working on a resolution. There is no impact to user data or functionality, this is strictly a front-end display issue. We’ll post an update once the fix has been deployed. Thanks for your patience while we get this sorted.
European Model is Shuffling Along
Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
imported_Tango
Golden Member
Socialism? Get a dictionary...
When one loses their desire to be better than the guy next to him then you become a human drone.
Quality suffers as nobody cares if they work(as evidenced above), production suffers as nobody cares to work(as evidenced above), and national efficieny takes a nose dive and collapses(as evidenced by the Soviet Union, N. Korea, Cuba, any former and current Communist regimes).
imported_Tango
Golden Member
And is your work the only option to be "better than the guy next door"? Quite an empty life... That's exactly the cultural difference beetween the two sides of the Atlantic Ocean. In Europe people feel there is WAY more than just working. Education, culture, travelling, learning things, experiencing different environments, learn new skills. Not because this will lead to a better career, but just because will make your life more interesting.
I have hard time thinking that people working all day long are less prone to beeing "drones" than the ones spending more time enjoying their life and cultivating cultural interests.
robertcloud
Banned
I see many people citing Europe's unemployment rate to be much higher than the US's. This is incorrect. The way which Bureau of Labor Statistics in the US calculates the unemployment rate is as follows:
Unemployment rate = #unemployed/Labor Force *100
the #unemployed is misleading because it does not include people which have not actively seeked work in the last 2 weeks. These people are labeled as 'discouraged workers.' The incarcerated are not counted in this number either. You are counted as 'employed' if you work for any amount of time at all, even if it is 1 hour per week. You are also 'employed' if you work, but not for pay, if it is for a relative.
In Europe the Labour Force Survey method is used. This counts 'discouraged workers' into the unemployed equation. Incarcerated people are counted as unemployed. It is also important to realise that the majority of Europe's unemployed are less than 25 years old. Because of Europe's social systems, more young people there are in post-secondary education and are more likely to be unemployed.
Lastly, it is important to consider that while a person may have to work in a state of underemployment(defined as working in a position which one is overqualified for, be it in hours worked, or skills possessed), a person in Europe may hold out for a job for which they are properly qualified for.
To say that Europe has a much higher unemployment rate than the USA is merely a misnomer
Unemployment rate = #unemployed/Labor Force *100
the #unemployed is misleading because it does not include people which have not actively seeked work in the last 2 weeks. These people are labeled as 'discouraged workers.' The incarcerated are not counted in this number either. You are counted as 'employed' if you work for any amount of time at all, even if it is 1 hour per week. You are also 'employed' if you work, but not for pay, if it is for a relative.
In Europe the Labour Force Survey method is used. This counts 'discouraged workers' into the unemployed equation. Incarcerated people are counted as unemployed. It is also important to realise that the majority of Europe's unemployed are less than 25 years old. Because of Europe's social systems, more young people there are in post-secondary education and are more likely to be unemployed.
Lastly, it is important to consider that while a person may have to work in a state of underemployment(defined as working in a position which one is overqualified for, be it in hours worked, or skills possessed), a person in Europe may hold out for a job for which they are properly qualified for.
To say that Europe has a much higher unemployment rate than the USA is merely a misnomer
Europe is fine people. Sure, they might have a little economic trouble right now, but people (most of whom have never been there) blow the economic differences between the US and Europe out of proportion. Both are heavily regulated market economies.
It really comes down to most of the Euro-bashers not having any clue what they're talking about. You can tell that they think Europe = Cuba or something. It is similar in many ways to the blue states in the USA.
Evidently not all of them. Note that some of the most hated countries like France have hardly any history of emigration. Guess they like their country.
It really comes down to most of the Euro-bashers not having any clue what they're talking about. You can tell that they think Europe = Cuba or something. It is similar in many ways to the blue states in the USA.
Steeplerot
Lifer
Enjoy your heart attack at a young age, not all americans are braindead work zombies.
You don't have to screw someone over to makea living or work yourself into the ground.
What a sick way of thinking, sheesh.
I can see who the drone is here. And it is not the person living their life, it is you.
What does it matter how much better you are doing then the next guy?
The other guy is not you, worry about yourself lest you become a slave to something you will never obtain, happiness within yourself.
No wonder you hate so much.
Here's a prescription from Dr. Steep:
Dump your baggage pack up a rucksack and head to europe and take the train around and backpack for a bit.
I am sure you will never think like this again once you exposed yourself to new cultures and lived a life not dependant on greed and endless tv background noise, go take a nice looong trip away from the BS this country feeds you.*
You need it.
*Wishes he could just hit the stop button on the rat race greed culture of america nowdays and let everyone kick back for a bit and look around at each other and at themselves for a bit*
Travel would do you good, your too stuck in one mindset. (I am not saying this being a smartass either)
Heh. Europe as a whole will probably be much the same as it is today.
"Growth" isn't really a sustainable longterm strategy, particularly when it's financed by non-repayable debt, and particularly when that growth isn't well distributed.
And there's always the way growth is defined. If I refinanced my home during the refi boom awhile back, that transaction is counted in GDP, and called "growth", even if I merely reduced my monthly payment and the term of the loan in the process... If the total value of the stock market goes up, that's called "growth", too, even though that entailed a few million jobs being offshored... Increased timber production is also "growth", even if it means logging off the West at an unsustainable rate.. and lower unemployment figures are a good thing, even if many of those folks were merely shifted into the "discouraged worker" category, or switched occupation into a lower paying job, or lost employer paid healthcare and other benefits in the re-employment process... and, yes, the average net worth of any room full of people will rise dramatically when you add Bill Gates to the equation...
Yeh, growth is good, when you're on the sunny side of it, when your share and your rewards are actually growing. Unfortunately, that's fewer and fewer Americans as time goes on...
"Growth" isn't really a sustainable longterm strategy, particularly when it's financed by non-repayable debt, and particularly when that growth isn't well distributed.
And there's always the way growth is defined. If I refinanced my home during the refi boom awhile back, that transaction is counted in GDP, and called "growth", even if I merely reduced my monthly payment and the term of the loan in the process... If the total value of the stock market goes up, that's called "growth", too, even though that entailed a few million jobs being offshored... Increased timber production is also "growth", even if it means logging off the West at an unsustainable rate.. and lower unemployment figures are a good thing, even if many of those folks were merely shifted into the "discouraged worker" category, or switched occupation into a lower paying job, or lost employer paid healthcare and other benefits in the re-employment process... and, yes, the average net worth of any room full of people will rise dramatically when you add Bill Gates to the equation...
Yeh, growth is good, when you're on the sunny side of it, when your share and your rewards are actually growing. Unfortunately, that's fewer and fewer Americans as time goes on...
Zebo
Elite Member
I dunno it seems euorpe is taking over.. our cars are POS germans and swedes make the best in the world..if you did'nt have rednecks like me buying only American, no one would be employed..Swiss and german pharm are huge. We are too stupid to even get people to fill high-tech positions we must import labor to fill them.. AMD went to germany not Santa Clara for it's FABs... Yeah I think your dog-eat-dog ideal is the primary cause of our garbage in garbage out economy which is on life support from foriegners.
Edit: Who cares about thier unemployment rate? You know you can go craddle to grave not working a day in your life in some of those countries? Some peeps take advatage as I'm sure YOU would hence your mistrust of such a system
Edit: Who cares about thier unemployment rate? You know you can go craddle to grave not working a day in your life in some of those countries? Some peeps take advatage as I'm sure YOU would hence your mistrust of such a system
Steeplerot
Lifer
Sure, considering a lot of blue staters are former red staters that got the hell out of the holes they were from.....
They know the types of folk that stay in the red states and rural areas too well that is why they move to the city to get away.
It is animal nature for the smartest and the strongest to wander to spread their genes.
They know the types of folk that stay in the red states and rural areas too well that is why they move to the city to get away.
It is animal nature for the smartest and the strongest to wander to spread their genes.
Interesting the sheer bitchiness of some people when one even dares to make rational observations on Europe. It's as if there's some ultra-PC rule that Europe is absolutely off-limits to analysis and critique, and a specialized group of nitwits automatically explode in a shrill whine if one impure thought is expressed over anything European. It's like a Pavlovian response 🙂 In any case, I can't worry myself with their moronic hang-ups...
Besides the above-mentioned brainlessness of the gripers, there's two basic responses from those that support the European model... as expected. There are those that generally accept this difference and see the value in a system with more security, time off of work, etc. This is due to a difference in culture among other things, but the basic attitude is that they like it their way and are willing to live with the effects. That's totally cool with me... it's not like I'm trying to change them or anything. I just feel that such a mentality means a lessening of power (economic and otherwise) relative to other world players over a period of time. Hence the question: Where will Europe be in 50 years? Like I said, the Europeans seem content to drop ever further in world economic standings, so I expect them to have a considerably less impact.
Of course my main reason for the topic and ruminations is to point out a road that I think would be harmful to the USA. Choosing greater free time to working more and making more is fine, if individuals make that decision. That's their right. But the European plan, in effect, makes that decision for everyone, stifling initiative and risk-taking-- some basic ingrediants of economic advancement. As I said, the goal here should be to allow for the maximum flexibility for individuals to enhance their own economic security and to be able to make those strategic economic decisions for themselves.
The other primary response from those that support the Euro-system is denial. They will argue over unemployment numbers (even though I specifically qualified my own statement as "among those wanting to work") and insist the European economic arrangement is not limiting in growth. We can argue statistics until we're blue in the face. I can say that the gap in productivity is increasing steadily and has been for 15 years. The fact that Europeans work fewer hours and retire earlier means American workers put in 40% more hours over the course of their lifetimes. Combine this with the fact that America has healthy population growth, how can anyone seriously argue Europe can keep up? All anyone has to do is check any almanac: compare the growth rates of Western Europe to that of the United States for the last 20 years.
I'm not trying to brag or demean Europe, I'm simply saying this is not a route that the US need take. We are different in many ways, and we have our own unique trail to blaze that will be better- for America. Europe can select their own values and course of action and that's perfectly fine for them. I'm just saying we in the US should do the same for us.
Besides the above-mentioned brainlessness of the gripers, there's two basic responses from those that support the European model... as expected. There are those that generally accept this difference and see the value in a system with more security, time off of work, etc. This is due to a difference in culture among other things, but the basic attitude is that they like it their way and are willing to live with the effects. That's totally cool with me... it's not like I'm trying to change them or anything. I just feel that such a mentality means a lessening of power (economic and otherwise) relative to other world players over a period of time. Hence the question: Where will Europe be in 50 years? Like I said, the Europeans seem content to drop ever further in world economic standings, so I expect them to have a considerably less impact.
Of course my main reason for the topic and ruminations is to point out a road that I think would be harmful to the USA. Choosing greater free time to working more and making more is fine, if individuals make that decision. That's their right. But the European plan, in effect, makes that decision for everyone, stifling initiative and risk-taking-- some basic ingrediants of economic advancement. As I said, the goal here should be to allow for the maximum flexibility for individuals to enhance their own economic security and to be able to make those strategic economic decisions for themselves.
The other primary response from those that support the Euro-system is denial. They will argue over unemployment numbers (even though I specifically qualified my own statement as "among those wanting to work") and insist the European economic arrangement is not limiting in growth. We can argue statistics until we're blue in the face. I can say that the gap in productivity is increasing steadily and has been for 15 years. The fact that Europeans work fewer hours and retire earlier means American workers put in 40% more hours over the course of their lifetimes. Combine this with the fact that America has healthy population growth, how can anyone seriously argue Europe can keep up? All anyone has to do is check any almanac: compare the growth rates of Western Europe to that of the United States for the last 20 years.
I'm not trying to brag or demean Europe, I'm simply saying this is not a route that the US need take. We are different in many ways, and we have our own unique trail to blaze that will be better- for America. Europe can select their own values and course of action and that's perfectly fine for them. I'm just saying we in the US should do the same for us.
The problem is that there is just no European Way Of Doing Things (tm). You're talking about dozens of countries and while it is true that social welfare is important for most of them, workplace protection is not. I don't deny it exists and Germany as a key player in European economics happens to have a strong regulation here. But the European nations face different challenges. Some have yet to make more steps to the postindustrial economy. Others are in need of political or legal or tax reformations. Some are even both. However no country is in a bad enough condition to consider profound changes (for example an approximation to the US way of managing economics and welfare). There are however some countries doing well now, I recomend to read again the posts on page 1 about Denmark (hej købnhavn 😉). The situation of Denmark is not representative for whole Europe, but the smaller countries are an important part in the mosaic that happens to be the continent.
I repeat, the situation of European countries varies. It is possible that we're going to have gaps in Europe 50 years from now considering the economy, social welfare and even ideological approaches. However I hope that won't happen and reforms take place where necessary. European coordination, in the EU or elsewhere, could prevent or moderate this.
In my opinion threads like this one use Europe as canvas for ideological projections to differentiate their own country and to show that it stands out of the crowd. And while it is true that in the big picture social welfare is more important in Europe and other aspects are not, it is light years from the truth to describe Europe as reincarnation of socialism and the US as reincarnation of liberalism.
The European economy has strengthened greatly over the last 20 years.
Today, the EU, which is comprised of many countries has collectively 1 vote in the WTO. This is significant, since Europe can swing a lot harder in trade talks.
Also, look at the Euro. A currency that used to trade at 80 cents per Euro, now is one of the strongest currencies in the world. The U.S better hope that world banks don't switch over to the Euro as their backing currency.
As for socialism? Who cares? Europe choses to spend most of its Income on its citizens, while the U.S choses to spend most of its income on the military. It benefits Europe one way and the U.S another way. There is nothing wrong with that.
Also, I think its flat out wrong when you use the terms socialism as if it were communism. You guys have no fVcking clue what communism really is.
Today, the EU, which is comprised of many countries has collectively 1 vote in the WTO. This is significant, since Europe can swing a lot harder in trade talks.
Also, look at the Euro. A currency that used to trade at 80 cents per Euro, now is one of the strongest currencies in the world. The U.S better hope that world banks don't switch over to the Euro as their backing currency.
As for socialism? Who cares? Europe choses to spend most of its Income on its citizens, while the U.S choses to spend most of its income on the military. It benefits Europe one way and the U.S another way. There is nothing wrong with that.
Also, I think its flat out wrong when you use the terms socialism as if it were communism. You guys have no fVcking clue what communism really is.
Not in the same fashion. In the socialist mold everybody is the same, none better, none worse. This model has nothing to do with reality because you line 10 people up in a line and you will get 10 different opinions, drive, and desire on how to do a single job.
Socialism works for the lowest common denominator in society. Unsurprisngly this is the result you end up with eventually.
Why? Because people working harder to be better than the next guy cant possibly have a fulfilling life? Ever thought people who work hard enjoy working harder so at the end of the day they get the promotion, a higher paying job, a bigger house, a nicer car, economic freedom?
Capitalism rewards the hard working smart worker and penalizes the lazy slob, socialism rewards the lazy slob and punishes the hard working smart worker.
It is little surprise places like China are trying to move more towards a capitalist system and former strongholds of Communism are as well.
They calculate unemployment rates the same. Anybody who is available to work in the next 3 weeks is counted, anybody who has been actively seeking work over the past 6 weeks is counted. The only difference is Europe counts available workers at age 15 while the United States does at age 16. That wont make up the nearly triple unemployment rates you find in the EU.
Yet you provide little evidence to back up your claims.
btw one of the bluest states in our nation that closely resembles a socialist system booted their gov due to an unbelievable deficit for a state of nearly 35 billion. That state California is an example of where our country is heading real fast.
Hey nobody is forcing you to be a lazy slob. Go ahead we have enough socialism in this country to save you at the expense of people like myself. Luckily however we also have enough capialitism left to allow people who want to work hard to get ahead in life.
How many purely capitalistic countries are there in Africa? btw the EU is close to Africa, why arent they helping?
It is the end game plan for socialism. Total control over everything in the economy, military, and private sector.
One question I do have for socialists is what happens when you tax people at an effective rate of 100%?
Isnt that more or less a form of slavery to the state?
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 25K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 25K
-
-
-
