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European Model is Shuffling Along

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Even as the American Left pushes the Euro style social model of greater job protections and larger social welfare programs, Western Europe itself is limping along the road to stagnation. And even though there's more than enough intellectual kinship between the American Left and European politicians, there is no denying the increasing anxiety among them about Western Europe's economic performance and future.

Since the late 1980s, when a major divergence appeared, the American and European economies have taken separate paths. Right now, most of those economies have growth rates that are a third to a half that of the US. The EU produces only about 70% of the US GDP per capita. It has a smaller portion of its population in the workforce and much higher unemployment among those wanting to work.

There's a growing cottage industry on both sides of the Atlantic denying this growing discrepancy in economic performance. But their reasoning denies logic and experience. Higehr taxes and less flexible labor markets lead to less investment and slower growth. But the leaders have a difficult road to tread... the public does not want to give up their "benefits", yet without higher economic growth their model is unsustainable. It's quite the catch-22.

Most of the reforms being quietly pushed are superficial and simply barely decrease the cost of the welfare state, but doesn't actually increase output. Personally, my opinion is that the Europeans -maybe less so for the UK which seems to have a clue and is closer to the US- are willing to accept inferior economic performance and growth for the economic security of their social-welfare model. Of course the supporters aren't willing to acknowledge that such a choice confronts them, but there's no getting around it.

So if things don't change in a fundamental sense, Europe will continue to have a diminished role as an economic player. Simply trying to create an ever larger economic union will not change the facts of reality. This is a cautionary tale for the US, where instead of the government providing absolute economic security, we here can enhance the alternative in which individuals are more empowered to obtain economic security for themselves. This is the way of the future, because this is the way to CREATE wealth rather than merely distributing it.

Final analysis: Europe will stagnate as the US and Pacific Rim continues to outgrow them.
 
Yes, it is true that important European countries stagnate economically and the age pyramid is unfavorably now. It's also true that social welfare is more an issue here than in the United States. Taxes however vary greatly between the different countries. I hope that the economical reforming is going to be successfull. Some countries need to get rid of too harsh and unflexible employment rules and strikes should happen more rarely. The whole idea of social welfare will countinue to exist and it is possible to keep it alive.

But the last sentences of your post really get me started.

Originally posted by: cwjeromeThis is the way of the future, because this is the way to CREATE wealth rather than merely distributing it.

Final analysis: Europe will stagnate as the US and Pacific Rim continues to outgrow them.

The United States right now don't create as much as they CONSUME. The main export product of the US, so to speak, is the DOLLAR. The dollars accumulate in Asian countries (mainly China). This countries pay a part of your wealth. But how long will they do that? If they try to get rid of their dollars, this would decrease the worth of it and have a big negative impact on world economy (very probably for the Asians too, that's the reason why they keep the dollars for now). In other words, the United States are building on a dangerous chain reaction. It's not all black and white, you know.
 
Originally posted by: cwjerome
Even as the American Left pushes the Euro style social model of greater job protections and larger social welfare programs, Western Europe itself is limping along the road to stagnation. And even though there's more than enough intellectual kinship between the American Left and European politicians, there is no denying the increasing anxiety among them about Western Europe's economic performance and future.

Since the late 1980s, when a major divergence appeared, the American and European economies have taken separate paths. Right now, most of those economies have growth rates that are a third to a half that of the US. The EU produces only about 70% of the US GDP per capita. It has a smaller portion of its population in the workforce and much higher unemployment among those wanting to work.

There's a growing cottage industry on both sides of the Atlantic denying this growing discrepancy in economic performance. But their reasoning denies logic and experience. Higehr taxes and less flexible labor markets lead to less investment and slower growth. But the leaders have a difficult road to tread... the public does not want to give up their "benefits", yet without higher economic growth their model is unsustainable. It's quite the catch-22.

Most of the reforms being quietly pushed are superficial and simply barely decrease the cost of the welfare state, but doesn't actually increase output. Personally, my opinion is that the Europeans -maybe less so for the UK which seems to have a clue and is closer to the US- are willing to accept inferior economic performance and growth for the economic security of their social-welfare model. Of course the supporters aren't willing to acknowledge that such a choice confronts them, but there's no getting around it.

So if things don't change in a fundamental sense, Europe will continue to have a diminished role as an economic player. Simply trying to create an ever larger economic union will not change the facts of reality. This is a cautionary tale for the US, where instead of the government providing absolute economic security, we here can enhance the alternative in which individuals are more empowered to obtain economic security for themselves. This is the way of the future, because this is the way to CREATE wealth rather than merely distributing it.

Final analysis: Europe will stagnate as the US and Pacific Rim continues to outgrow them.

Denmark, one of, if not the, most socialized countries in europe. Check our economy? Is it bad? It's one of the strongest in the world.
The things happening in the major european countries is happening because of lack of flexibility in the labour market, but it has nothing to do with how socialized is. Except for the fact that people refuse to work for 2 dollars pr. hour and 2 jobs. that imo is a positive thing. It's globalisation.
 
Europe will be exactly where it stands now. The problem of making confrontations between two different economic systems is that they follow two different cultural systems. Europe has the economics figures it wants. It will never have a two digits GDP yearly increase because what must be done to have this kind of performances is culturally unacceptable to most europeans. Europe doesn't want anymore to play a major role in international affairs, people simply dislike wars and imperliatistic-kind-of behaviours of large corporations outsourcing in developing coutries. People want free healthcare, free graduate education, retirement funding for all, 35 hours maximum working schedules, and economic policies trying to force the system towards a more equal distribution of richness and resources. These servicies/attitudes cost.
They won't change because they are on top of the europeans' agenda. People right now have a very very high quality of life, possibly not matched by any other system in the world, and have a cultural system supporting the idea that this quality of life should not be traded for more money and a more active role in international politics.

Every country in history has a moment of explosive growth in its economy and political power, followed by a stabilization and then a gradual or sudden fall. Europe moment of omnipotence came to an end after WWI and the end of colonialism, and came the moment of the US that at the time was a less culturally developed country. Now is coming the age of China, and again you see that in order to achieve skyrocketing economic developement you need a less developed cultural system.
 
The United States is going down the path of entitlement and grand social programs.
If we dont watch outselves you can expect the same result over here with 15% unemployment rates and a stagnant economy.

The keyis keeping the populace off the mother tit. Once they get thier lips on it they wont let go. Just look at the fight over SS in this country. You have liberals wanting to keep the status quo and let rich people collect from a social program they have no need in collecting from. That is completely against anything they stand for, but they see the mother tit being pulled away and freak out.

btw I also believe this is another way for the socialists to get their ideology into power. They failed miserably during the 20th century using the brute force approach. Now they are back at the drawing board and using the slower political route.

Both will have the same result however, total ruin.
 
Originally posted by: Forsythe
Denmark, one of, if not the, most socialized countries in europe. Check our economy? Is it bad? It's one of the strongest in the world.
The things happening in the major european countries is happening because of lack of flexibility in the labour market, but it has nothing to do with how socialized is. Except for the fact that people refuse to work for 2 dollars pr. hour and 2 jobs. that imo is a positive thing. It's globalisation.

Exactly. It's possible to make a very flexible job market while still beein kind of socialist. On of the greatest aspect we have in Denmark helping the job market to be flexible is "Day-Money". If you get fired from a job or resign with for a plausible reason you will get a certain amount of money while you look for a new job. This way a family will still be able to go on in "normal" way. You will need actively to search for a job and also accept a job if you get it offered otherwise you loose the right to "Day-Money". This way people don't have to be afraid of trying to go for a new job and loose healthcare benefits etc.

What we do need is a tax reform that makes it possible to create jobs for those who loose their job to globalization and those who are "low" skilled or have some reduced working capabilities. That doesn't work very well ATM. A simpler tax system would definately help.

But on the other hand 12.1% of US citizen live below UN poverty level, which IMO show something about the US system that is very wrong.

Also with the current US spending the US economy will be very challenged from China in the comming years.

If just France, Germany and Italy dared doing some economically reforms..........
The smaller countries in EU generally does much better than the giants (UK not included).
 
Originally posted by: cwjerome
...It's quite the catch-22....
Or as I like to put it "you cant have your cake and eat it too."

The left really tries to screw themselves from both ends, but fail to realize they can only have one or the other. "Higher Pay!" they scream, so they are given higher pay. "Cheaper prices!" they scream, so they are given cheaper goods and services.

Then they want to question why the government (and every citizen too, for that matter) is in debt. Go figure.

 
Huh, I have been saying this for years.

I think the problems are obvious and it is scary that there are people over here (most of the people on this board for starters) that think they can somehow make it work. Socialism has never worked, because you remove the single most importance reason for personal and economic growth - INCENTIVE.

Not to mention, at some point you will hit a tax wall. In Northern Europe, some effective tax rates are hitting the 90% point for people that would be considered middle class in America.

Note: for the morons on there, I said EFFECTIVE tax rates. That means add all of them up. Do it for yourself, I think you will be surpirsed that after all Federal, State, and Local taxes, as well as fees and tolls, etc... you are probably paying close to 65% or more. And that is in America.
 
Why is Jerome so bent up on trying to bring down the UN or Europe? I hope most of the Euro-bashers realize that they are likely of European ancestory. Is the economy worse? Yes. Is their way of life better? Yes. Go to Europe in the summer and a lot of them get 1 month paid vacations while we are killing ourselves each week trying to make more money so we can buy more useless crap. Their is more to it than just numbers.
 
Sorry, but those 1 month paid vacations are costing someone. If you really wanted to, take a month unpaid from work every Summer - in essence that is all they are doing.
 
Originally posted by: irwincur
Sorry, but those 1 month paid vacations are costing someone. If you really wanted to, take a month unpaid from work every Summer - in essence that is all they are doing.

Yes, it's costing someone. It's costing the same person taking the vacation. And guess what? They like it that way. Many of us here would also trade some of the extra pay of extra vacation without the risk of losing our jobs. There's more to life that working and buying useless crap.
 
irwincur,
you are clearly getting it all wrong about northern europe, probably the most socalistic countries in the world and yet have one of the highest tech industry and one of the best economies in the world

now on with the issues of europes system and the US system, it all comes down pretty even,

cars, in europe expensive, in us cheap
education, in europe cheap, in us expensive
healthcare, in europe cheap, in us expensive
houses, in europe expensive, in us cheap
and so on and so on

compare quality of life ratings when comparing the systems, both have their ups and downs and to most people its the same
 
Originally posted by: totalcommand
My Final Analysis: China and India will overtake the U.S. in economic power in at most 50 years.

China maybe, India no way.
 
The point is: IT IS NOT A CONTEST!

Yes,the economy could be better
Yes, unemployment rates are high
Yes, there are a number of things that could be done in a better way.

However, we are not prepared to sacrifice some of the things that we DO like (like cheap health care, cheap -or free- education etc) júst to compete with China, the US or any other power. As long as we like our lives who cares?
Politics should be about improving quality of life for the citizens, it is not a contest about which region has the best economy or the most influence on international politics.

As long as our systems do stand a chance of working they are worth fighting for.
 
Choices. That's what it boils down to.

Also consider that Europes population is fairly stable(No to Low Growth), compared to the US/Canada where Population Growth is very high. Here in North America we need High Growth Rates to keep pace with Population Growth. On the flipside Europe doesn't need to address these concerns and can get by just fine with low GDP Growth, at least concerning that issue in isolation. Europe has had these issues before and has dealt with them, I suspect they'll succeed again and keep their "socialist" systems intact. This whole issue isn't about Europe's "socialism" as much as it's about American's(particular ones) paranoia of "socialism".
 
To sum up this thread:

More anti-European feelings coming from U.S. conservatives (who are also mostly ignorant of the bigger picture...)

Nothing to see here, move along, folks...
 
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Why is Jerome so bent up on trying to bring down the UN or Europe? I hope most of the Euro-bashers realize that they are likely of European ancestory. Is the economy worse? Yes. Is their way of life better? Yes. Go to Europe in the summer and a lot of them get 1 month paid vacations while we are killing ourselves each week trying to make more money so we can buy more useless crap. Their is more to it than just numbers.

Here is a clue, our ancestors left for a reason.

I'd take 3 weeks paid vacation, have a job, keep more of my money, and have a chance at a better future than get 1 month paid vacation and hope when I come back the job wont be gone.
 
Originally posted by: sandorski
Choices. That's what it boils down to.

Also consider that Europes population is fairly stable(No to Low Growth), compared to the US/Canada where Population Growth is very high. Here in North America we need High Growth Rates to keep pace with Population Growth. On the flipside Europe doesn't need to address these concerns and can get by just fine with low GDP Growth, at least concerning that issue in isolation. Europe has had these issues before and has dealt with them, I suspect they'll succeed again and keep their "socialist" systems intact. This whole issue isn't about Europe's "socialism" as much as it's about American's(particular ones) paranoia of "socialism".

Um with a negative birth rate they will see immigration if they even want to continue to grow their economies.

This will lead to cultural issues that they simply cant win due to birth rates.

There are valid reasons to fear socialism.

 
Originally posted by: f95toli
The point is: IT IS NOT A CONTEST!

Yes,the economy could be better
Yes, unemployment rates are high
Yes, there are a number of things that could be done in a better way.

However, we are not prepared to sacrifice some of the things that we DO like (like cheap health care, cheap -or free- education etc) júst to compete with China, the US or any other power. As long as we like our lives who cares?
Politics should be about improving quality of life for the citizens, it is not a contest about which region has the best economy or the most influence on international politics.

As long as our systems do stand a chance of working they are worth fighting for.


Voilà. That's all. Europeans don't care of anything but high quality of life. It's a cultural thing. Some of my ex coworkers rejected a triplication of their salary; why? Because they work 4 month and have vacation the rest of the year. I used to work in television production, where we got paid per project. So after a format was developed nobody cared to stay and work at another one. See you next year, no matter how big a salary you could propose. Some of us used the time to travel around Africa, some went wind-surfing, some used their free time to stay with their kids or go to the cinema. In Paris you have government funded movie theaters that show old movies that made history, and there's a crowd even in the morning. Most people wouldn't trade their 30 hours working schedule for more money because they want some time to go to a library, cinema, theater etc. Money cannot buy you time. Europeans like their lives exactly as they are, and would maybe have even more freetime instead of higher salaries or a more internationally influent country.
 
Originally posted by: Tango
Originally posted by: f95toli
The point is: IT IS NOT A CONTEST!

Yes,the economy could be better
Yes, unemployment rates are high
Yes, there are a number of things that could be done in a better way.

However, we are not prepared to sacrifice some of the things that we DO like (like cheap health care, cheap -or free- education etc) júst to compete with China, the US or any other power. As long as we like our lives who cares?
Politics should be about improving quality of life for the citizens, it is not a contest about which region has the best economy or the most influence on international politics.

As long as our systems do stand a chance of working they are worth fighting for.


Voilà. That's all. Europeans don't care of anything but high quality of life. It's a cultural thing. Some of my ex coworkers rejected a triplication of their salary; why? Because they work 4 month and have vacation the rest of the year. I used to work in television production, where we got paid per project. So after a format was developed nobody cared to stay and work at another one. See you next year, no matter how big a salary you could propose. Some of us used the time to travel around Africa, some went wind-surfing, some used their free time to stay with their kids or go to the cinema. In Paris you have government funded movie theaters that show old movies that made history, and there's a crowd even in the morning. Most people wouldn't trade their 30 hours working schedule for more money because they want some time to go to a library, cinema, theater etc. Money cannot buy you time. Europeans like their lives exactly as they are, and would maybe have even more freetime instead of higher salaries or a more internationally influent country.

Classic reason why socialism fails in the end.

Thank you
 
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Why is Jerome so bent up on trying to bring down the UN or Europe? I hope most of the Euro-bashers realize that they are likely of European ancestory. Is the economy worse? Yes. Is their way of life better? Yes. Go to Europe in the summer and a lot of them get 1 month paid vacations while we are killing ourselves each week trying to make more money so we can buy more useless crap. Their is more to it than just numbers.

Here is a clue, our ancestors left for a reason.

I'd take 3 weeks paid vacation, have a job, keep more of my money, and have a chance at a better future than get 1 month paid vacation and hope when I come back the job wont be gone.


Your opinion doesn't matter because you haven't been anywhere outside the US.
 
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Why is Jerome so bent up on trying to bring down the UN or Europe? I hope most of the Euro-bashers realize that they are likely of European ancestory. Is the economy worse? Yes. Is their way of life better? Yes. Go to Europe in the summer and a lot of them get 1 month paid vacations while we are killing ourselves each week trying to make more money so we can buy more useless crap. Their is more to it than just numbers.

Here is a clue, our ancestors left for a reason.

I'd take 3 weeks paid vacation, have a job, keep more of my money, and have a chance at a better future than get 1 month paid vacation and hope when I come back the job wont be gone.


Your opinion doesn't matter because you haven't been anywhere outside the US.

More ASSuming by the left.

What a surprise.



 
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