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Europe fighting back

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WelshBloke said:
Thats not addressing that point in a meaningful way at all.

Youre basically going "You're not able to make decisions for yourself, I'll do it for you." and you're doing it purely because you disagree with their choice in the first place.
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It does. You're saying these women "want" to wear one. I'm saying when there's such a discrepancy in relative power a yes isn't always a yes. And I'm not disagreeing with their choice, I'm disagreeing they were ever truly given a choice in the first place.
 
UglyCasanova said:
It does.
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Really it doesnt.

UglyCasanova said:
You're saying these women "want" to wear one.
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I'm saying that some of them certainly do. I know some.

UglyCasanova said:
I'm saying when there's such a discrepancy in relative power a yes isn't always a yes.
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What power discrepancy? Not all Muslim women are locked in the house with overbearing husbands. I know a consultant, a couple of lawyers and lots of doctors. And they would chew you a new arsehole if you tried to tell them what to wear.

UglyCasanova said:
And I'm not disagreeing with their choice, I'm disagreeing they were ever truly given a choice in the first place.
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And how would they have a choice if you had your way?
 
UglyCasanova said:
😀

Right, women the world over are treated as equals. No gap in social power, pay, anything. It's all hunky dory. Like I mentioned before, liberals seem to abandon their principals as soon as the topic of Islam is introduced.
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So would you say that the answer to that is to make their choices for them?

You seem to be happily ignoring those people who are able to make their own decisions but are making decisions that you dont agree with.
 
WelshBloke said:
So would you say that the answer to that is to make their choices for them?

You seem to be happily ignoring those people who are able to make their own decisions but are making decisions that you dont agree with.
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I'm saying women should be pressured into anything men wouldn't do. If showing ones face is immodest the men and women both should cover up. I'm not making choices for anyone, just recognizing the fact that the gap in power means many times women both individually and collectively aren't able to make a true choice although on the surface it looks as if they are.
 
UglyCasanova said:
I'm saying women should be pressured into anything men wouldn't do. If showing ones face is immodest the men and women both should cover up. I'm not making choices for anyone, just recognizing the fact that the gap in power means many times women both individually and collectively aren't able to make a true choice although on the surface it looks as if they are.
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So to be absolutely clear you support women wearing what they want if its their decision to do so?
 
UglyCasanova said:
😀

Right, women the world over are treated as equals. No gap in social power, pay, anything. It's all hunky dory. Like I mentioned before, liberals seem to abandon their principals as soon as the topic of Islam is introduced.
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Nope.

I and many others believe that women should be free to wear or not wear religious clothing. Some Muslim women are clearly wearing hijabs and burqas out of indoctrination, but you're not liberating them by banning that apparel -- you're just imposing a different set of cultural views. Wilders' issue is that he genuinely wants to make any show of Islamic faith illegal, and he must always be stopped.

As for other countries? Yes, it's problematic that some countries require oppressive clothing. But I don't think it's as simple as refusing to do business with those countries. You won't convince a theocratic government to change its mind by cutting off communication or economic opportunities.
 
And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their khimār over their breasts and not display their beauty except to their husband, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments.

— Quran 24:31
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Give it up, ugly. You're clearly wrong. Who wouldn't choose that? Sounds lovely. Sexual shame is perfectly healthy. Empowering even.
 
WelshBloke said:
So you fully support Muslim women who decide to wear the veil?
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If that's their actual decision sure. You're under the impression that they can make that choice though. If we were discussing anything other than Islam it would be obvious that external pressures are a very, very heavy factor in that decision making.
 
UglyCasanova said:
If that's their actual decision sure.
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Excellent. But I was waiting for the "But.." and...

UglyCasanova said:
You're under the impression that they can make that choice though.
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So because you believe that no Muslim woman is capable of making her own choice you have nobly decided to make it for her.
You dont think that maybe you're being a little bit patronising?

UglyCasanova said:
If we were discussing anything other than Islam it would be obvious that external pressures are a very, very heavy factor in that decision making.
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Frankly I think that it says more about your prejudices than it does about Islam or Womens rights.
 
justoh said:
Give it up, ugly. You're clearly wrong. Who wouldn't choose that? Sounds lovely. Sexual shame is perfectly healthy. Empowering even.
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Yeah the original question posed was to give an example of the left abandoning their principles when it comes to Islam, and given the responses in this thread I'd say the burka/hijab is a good example.
 
WelshBloke said:
Excellent. But I was waiting for the "But.." and...



So because you believe that no Muslim woman is capable of making her own choice you have nobly decided to make it for her.
You dont think that maybe you're being a little bit patronising?



Frankly I think that it says more about your prejudices than it does about Islam or Womens rights.
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Defend away, I'm done.
 
Commodus said:
Nope.

I and many others believe that women should be free to wear or not wear religious clothing. Some Muslim women are clearly wearing hijabs and burqas out of indoctrination, but you're not liberating them by banning that apparel -- you're just imposing a different set of cultural views.
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And then you (ie. person who implements or supports the ban) becomes their problem for oppressing their right to their religious beliefs and the men who were coercing those into it in the first place are quickly forgotten about.

Change in how people practice religious beliefs needs to come from within. If it comes from an external source, then any internal difference of opinion quickly becomes overshadowed by those who want to take their choices away.

And any idiot who believes that Muslim women are mostly being forced/coerced into wearing religiously-significant clothing by men should look at the strength of belief in Christianity amongst Christians, and that's despite the erosion that many modern societies have had upon it.
 
mikeymikec said:
And then you (ie. person who implements or supports the ban) becomes their problem for oppressing their right to their religious beliefs and the men who were coercing those into it in the first place are quickly forgotten about.

Change in how people practice religious beliefs needs to come from within. If it comes from an external source, then any internal difference of opinion quickly becomes overshadowed by those who want to take their choices away.

And any idiot who believes that Muslim women are mostly being forced/coerced into wearing religiously-significant clothing by men should look at the strength of belief in Christianity amongst Christians, and that's despite the erosion that many modern societies have had upon it.
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Thank you, Mikey, this was the point I was trying to make.
 
justoh said:
Dutch comedian vs some muslim women:

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And what a perfect way to deal with it. Comedy. Nice.
You could dig up representatives from jehovah's witnesses or any other cult level structure and do the same thing over again. This concept is not foreign to us, we usually know how to deal with these knuckleheads. Instead of going Full Retard Wilders(from here on FRW), we could empower ourselves with knowledge, intel and strategy. The weak spot in this cults structure is their women, the young women, they are vastly overrepresented in the colleges and universties and quite a few of them makes a break with their heritage right there. This is key. Exploit this - cause i gurantee you, where the pussy goes, man will follow.
 
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