EU expands at Midnight: adds 10 nations; 25 total 450 million Citizens

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CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
Nato membership doesn't qualify one for the EU. The EU is a "union of values". Torture, a plethora of human rights abuses and a backwards society are not among them.

Whether Turkey can begin ascention will be decided in December, however it must work very hard for a very long time and completely transform itself if it wants to be a part of that club.

I tend to think that a country with 95% of its citizens voting against the belief that minorities are people is a backwards society with human rights issues.

why don't you look at Slovenia as a whole? What, it completely ruins your pathetic argument? I thought so.

I am. You're obviously only looking at a fraction, deciding to pretend something doesn't exist. I'm trying to acknowledge its presence.

95% voted against allowing minorities rights. They're not considered people. This is a serious issue. Maybe you'll call it a utopia, but I call that a backwards society with serious human rights issues.
Similarly, I can pick out things and say the US is a backwards society with no respect for human rights, but I am not as stupid as you, so I won't do that.

BAM!!!! What, does this now ruin your pathetic argument? HAHAHAHA, damn, you got served, baby! I thought so, huuuuuh? I squished you like a purple elephant trying to breed with a green panda.

:roll:

So you can say it about Turkey, but I can't criticize Slovenia?

There was a vote and 95% of the voting population voted that these people aren't people. It's disgusting. I pity you for criticizing me for bringing this up. Is that a normal society that supports human rights to you?

Obviously you can pick things out from any country. I wonder if people said the same thing to anti-apartheid activists, slavery abolitionists, civil rights activists, etc.

I am sorry that I am stupid compared to you. I wish I was as smart as you. I think you are the pinnacle of human evolution. Oh wise one, please bless me with 1/10000 of your intelligence. If I even had a fraction of your intelligence, I would be blessed and prepared to start on my Nobel Prize winning research. You are my lord and savior. I wish that you will answer my nightly prayers and endow me with the ability to stealthily embed insults in internet conversations.
 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
Nato membership doesn't qualify one for the EU. The EU is a "union of values". Torture, a plethora of human rights abuses and a backwards society are not among them.

Whether Turkey can begin ascention will be decided in December, however it must work very hard for a very long time and completely transform itself if it wants to be a part of that club.

I tend to think that a country with 95% of its citizens voting against the belief that minorities are people is a backwards society with human rights issues.

why don't you look at Slovenia as a whole? What, it completely ruins your pathetic argument? I thought so.

I am. You're obviously only looking at a fraction, deciding to pretend something doesn't exist. I'm trying to acknowledge its presence.

95% voted against allowing minorities rights. They're not considered people. This is a serious issue. Maybe you'll call it a utopia, but I call that a backwards society with serious human rights issues.
Similarly, I can pick out things and say the US is a backwards society with no respect for human rights, but I am not as stupid as you, so I won't do that.

BAM!!!! What, does this now ruin your pathetic argument? HAHAHAHA, damn, you got served, baby! I thought so, huuuuuh? I squished you like a purple elephant trying to breed with a green panda.

:roll:

So you can say it about Turkey, but I can't criticize Slovenia?

There was a vote and 95% of the voting population voted that these people aren't people. It's disgusting. I pity you for criticizing me for bringing this up. Is that a normal society that supports human rights to you?

Obviously you can pick things out from any country. I wonder if people said the same thing to anti-apartheid activists, slavery abolitionists, civil rights activists, etc.

Its a personal policy of mine not to try to reason with unreasonable people, so I'll only restate this crystal clear case one more time. I'll even do you the favour of bolding important parts - to help with your reading comprehention, or lack thereof.

While Slovenia is not a perfect country (like every other country), overall it is much better than Turkey:
economy> yes
political stability/respect for democracy> yes
human rights> YES.

You have to understand that your rapid hatred of anyone and anything european, which you've displayed here quite often, will not change these facts, no matter how much you'd like that.


The vote you are refering to was about restoring rights, which these minorities had in Yugoslavia. When Slovenia was founded, slovenes were given citizenship, minorities had to apply. Those that didn't, didn't get citizenship. The current status of minorities that did not apply for citizenship is the same as that of illegal immigrats in the US. This is hardly comparable to what Turkey has been doing the Kurds for decades and continues to do to this day.

And to finish this off. Even though you've tried your best to make Slovenes look like scum, reality is different. They do not mind restoring rights, but they do mind paying billion in compensation.


I am sorry that I am stupid compared to you. I wish I was as smart as you. I think you are the pinnacle of human evolution. Oh wise one, please bless me with 1/10000 of your intelligence. If I even had a fraction of your intelligence, I would be blessed and prepared to start on my Nobel Prize winning research. You are my lord and savior. I wish that you will answer my nightly prayers and endow me with the ability to stealthily embed insults in internet conversations.

It wasn't funny the first time, and making it twice as long the second time around still won't make it funny.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
Nato membership doesn't qualify one for the EU. The EU is a "union of values". Torture, a plethora of human rights abuses and a backwards society are not among them.

Whether Turkey can begin ascention will be decided in December, however it must work very hard for a very long time and completely transform itself if it wants to be a part of that club.

I tend to think that a country with 95% of its citizens voting against the belief that minorities are people is a backwards society with human rights issues.

why don't you look at Slovenia as a whole? What, it completely ruins your pathetic argument? I thought so.

I am. You're obviously only looking at a fraction, deciding to pretend something doesn't exist. I'm trying to acknowledge its presence.

95% voted against allowing minorities rights. They're not considered people. This is a serious issue. Maybe you'll call it a utopia, but I call that a backwards society with serious human rights issues.
Similarly, I can pick out things and say the US is a backwards society with no respect for human rights, but I am not as stupid as you, so I won't do that.

BAM!!!! What, does this now ruin your pathetic argument? HAHAHAHA, damn, you got served, baby! I thought so, huuuuuh? I squished you like a purple elephant trying to breed with a green panda.

:roll:

So you can say it about Turkey, but I can't criticize Slovenia?

There was a vote and 95% of the voting population voted that these people aren't people. It's disgusting. I pity you for criticizing me for bringing this up. Is that a normal society that supports human rights to you?

Obviously you can pick things out from any country. I wonder if people said the same thing to anti-apartheid activists, slavery abolitionists, civil rights activists, etc.

Its a personal policy of mine not to try to reason with unreasonable people, so I'll only restate this crystal clear case one more time. I'll even do you the favour of bolding important parts - to help with your reading comprehention, or lack thereof.

While Slovenia is not a perfect country (like every other country), overall it is much better than Turkey:
economy> yes
political stability/respect for democracy> yes
human rights> YES.

You have to understand that your rapid hatred of anyone and anything european, which you've displayed here quite often, will not change these facts, no matter how much you'd like that.


The vote you are refering to was about restoring rights, which these minorities had in Yugoslavia. When Slovenia was founded, slovenes were given citizenship, minorities had to apply. Those that didn't, didn't get citizenship. The current status of minorities that did not apply for citizenship is the same as that of illegal immigrats in the US. This is hardly comparable to what Turkey has been doing the Kurds for decades and continues to do to this day.

And to finish this off. Even though you've tried your best to make Slovenes look like scum, reality is different. They do not mind restoring rights, but they do mind paying billion in compensation.


I am sorry that I am stupid compared to you. I wish I was as smart as you. I think you are the pinnacle of human evolution. Oh wise one, please bless me with 1/10000 of your intelligence. If I even had a fraction of your intelligence, I would be blessed and prepared to start on my Nobel Prize winning research. You are my lord and savior. I wish that you will answer my nightly prayers and endow me with the ability to stealthily embed insults in internet conversations.

It wasn't funny the first time, and making it twice as long the second time around still won't make it funny.

You're the one that first started criticizing Turkey and then attacked me for criticizing Slovenia. Looks like you're the unreasonable one for not being able to apply the same standards for yourself.

They're being denied rights. Plain and simple. Fears fueled by a racist political party, too. They are not illegal immigrants. I like how you're trying to sugar-coat it. Do you support the belief that they're not humans? Applying for citizenship in your own home just because you're of a different ethnicity than the majority is disgusting.

Slovenia is a horrible country. In the vote, 95% of the population decided that minorities are not people. This is a backwards society with serious human rights issues. They should not be allowed to spread their hate and 16th century attitude.

I'm not anti-European. I'm anti-xenophobia, racism, etc. I'm concerned about this growing problem in Europe. It's not going to lead to anything good, especially if you remember their history. I think that if they fix it, then they'll be a lot better off along with the immigrants. I think it's interesting that you label me as anti-European when I post about these issues. Is the head of the UN anti-European? I'm wondering since he's confronted European countries about these problems, too.

It's so easy for people to just dismiss me by claiming that I'm anti-European and pretend that what I state doesn't exist. It's interesting that I'm always attacked when I bring it up. Maybe because people support the oppression of people. If you think about it, I'm pro-European since fixing these things up will make Europe more competitive and better.

Basically, if I'm anti-European, then anyone that's critical of Bush is anti-American. Obviously that's not the case. Or are you so simple that it is?
 

Mardeth

Platinum Member
Jul 24, 2002
2,608
0
0
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
Nato membership doesn't qualify one for the EU. The EU is a "union of values". Torture, a plethora of human rights abuses and a backwards society are not among them.

Whether Turkey can begin ascention will be decided in December, however it must work very hard for a very long time and completely transform itself if it wants to be a part of that club.

I tend to think that a country with 95% of its citizens voting against the belief that minorities are people is a backwards society with human rights issues.

why don't you look at Slovenia as a whole? What, it completely ruins your pathetic argument? I thought so.

I am. You're obviously only looking at a fraction, deciding to pretend something doesn't exist. I'm trying to acknowledge its presence.

95% voted against allowing minorities rights. They're not considered people. This is a serious issue. Maybe you'll call it a utopia, but I call that a backwards society with serious human rights issues.
Similarly, I can pick out things and say the US is a backwards society with no respect for human rights, but I am not as stupid as you, so I won't do that.

BAM!!!! What, does this now ruin your pathetic argument? HAHAHAHA, damn, you got served, baby! I thought so, huuuuuh? I squished you like a purple elephant trying to breed with a green panda.

:roll:

So you can say it about Turkey, but I can't criticize Slovenia?

There was a vote and 95% of the voting population voted that these people aren't people. It's disgusting. I pity you for criticizing me for bringing this up. Is that a normal society that supports human rights to you?

Obviously you can pick things out from any country. I wonder if people said the same thing to anti-apartheid activists, slavery abolitionists, civil rights activists, etc.

Its a personal policy of mine not to try to reason with unreasonable people, so I'll only restate this crystal clear case one more time. I'll even do you the favour of bolding important parts - to help with your reading comprehention, or lack thereof.

While Slovenia is not a perfect country (like every other country), overall it is much better than Turkey:
economy> yes
political stability/respect for democracy> yes
human rights> YES.

You have to understand that your rapid hatred of anyone and anything european, which you've displayed here quite often, will not change these facts, no matter how much you'd like that.


The vote you are refering to was about restoring rights, which these minorities had in Yugoslavia. When Slovenia was founded, slovenes were given citizenship, minorities had to apply. Those that didn't, didn't get citizenship. The current status of minorities that did not apply for citizenship is the same as that of illegal immigrats in the US. This is hardly comparable to what Turkey has been doing the Kurds for decades and continues to do to this day.

And to finish this off. Even though you've tried your best to make Slovenes look like scum, reality is different. They do not mind restoring rights, but they do mind paying billion in compensation.


I am sorry that I am stupid compared to you. I wish I was as smart as you. I think you are the pinnacle of human evolution. Oh wise one, please bless me with 1/10000 of your intelligence. If I even had a fraction of your intelligence, I would be blessed and prepared to start on my Nobel Prize winning research. You are my lord and savior. I wish that you will answer my nightly prayers and endow me with the ability to stealthily embed insults in internet conversations.

It wasn't funny the first time, and making it twice as long the second time around still won't make it funny.

You're the one that first started criticizing Turkey and then attacked me for criticizing Slovenia. Looks like you're the unreasonable one for not being able to apply the same standards for yourself.

They're being denied rights. Plain and simple. Fears fueled by a racist political party, too. They are not illegal immigrants. I like how you're trying to sugar-coat it. Do you support the belief that they're not humans? Applying for citizenship in your own home just because you're of a different ethnicity than the majority is disgusting.

Slovenia is a horrible country. In the vote, 95% of the population decided that minorities are not people. This is a backwards society with serious human rights issues. They should not be allowed to spread their hate and 16th century attitude.

I'm not anti-European. I'm anti-xenophobia, racism, etc. I'm concerned about this growing problem in Europe. It's not going to lead to anything good, especially if you remember their history. I think that if they fix it, then they'll be a lot better off along with the immigrants. I think it's interesting that you label me as anti-European when I post about these issues. Is the head of the UN anti-European? I'm wondering since he's confronted European countries about these problems, too.

It's so easy for people to just dismiss me by claiming that I'm anti-European and pretend that what I state doesn't exist. It's interesting that I'm always attacked when I bring it up. Maybe because people support the oppression of people. If you think about it, I'm pro-European since fixing these things up will make Europe more competitive and better.

Basically, if I'm anti-European, then anyone that's critical of Bush is anti-American. Obviously that's not the case. Or are you so simple that it is?

So basicly what your saying is that not giving them citizenship is the same as saying their not humans? Not a single country in the world (probably) is giving citizenship to everybody that wants it, not the US, not Pakistan, not Finland or Bangladesh. Could I get a link of that Slovenia vote thing so I can decide for myself if what their doing is wrong.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Originally posted by: Mardeth
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
Nato membership doesn't qualify one for the EU. The EU is a "union of values". Torture, a plethora of human rights abuses and a backwards society are not among them.

Whether Turkey can begin ascention will be decided in December, however it must work very hard for a very long time and completely transform itself if it wants to be a part of that club.

I tend to think that a country with 95% of its citizens voting against the belief that minorities are people is a backwards society with human rights issues.

why don't you look at Slovenia as a whole? What, it completely ruins your pathetic argument? I thought so.

I am. You're obviously only looking at a fraction, deciding to pretend something doesn't exist. I'm trying to acknowledge its presence.

95% voted against allowing minorities rights. They're not considered people. This is a serious issue. Maybe you'll call it a utopia, but I call that a backwards society with serious human rights issues.
Similarly, I can pick out things and say the US is a backwards society with no respect for human rights, but I am not as stupid as you, so I won't do that.

BAM!!!! What, does this now ruin your pathetic argument? HAHAHAHA, damn, you got served, baby! I thought so, huuuuuh? I squished you like a purple elephant trying to breed with a green panda.

:roll:

So you can say it about Turkey, but I can't criticize Slovenia?

There was a vote and 95% of the voting population voted that these people aren't people. It's disgusting. I pity you for criticizing me for bringing this up. Is that a normal society that supports human rights to you?

Obviously you can pick things out from any country. I wonder if people said the same thing to anti-apartheid activists, slavery abolitionists, civil rights activists, etc.

Its a personal policy of mine not to try to reason with unreasonable people, so I'll only restate this crystal clear case one more time. I'll even do you the favour of bolding important parts - to help with your reading comprehention, or lack thereof.

While Slovenia is not a perfect country (like every other country), overall it is much better than Turkey:
economy> yes
political stability/respect for democracy> yes
human rights> YES.

You have to understand that your rapid hatred of anyone and anything european, which you've displayed here quite often, will not change these facts, no matter how much you'd like that.


The vote you are refering to was about restoring rights, which these minorities had in Yugoslavia. When Slovenia was founded, slovenes were given citizenship, minorities had to apply. Those that didn't, didn't get citizenship. The current status of minorities that did not apply for citizenship is the same as that of illegal immigrats in the US. This is hardly comparable to what Turkey has been doing the Kurds for decades and continues to do to this day.

And to finish this off. Even though you've tried your best to make Slovenes look like scum, reality is different. They do not mind restoring rights, but they do mind paying billion in compensation.


I am sorry that I am stupid compared to you. I wish I was as smart as you. I think you are the pinnacle of human evolution. Oh wise one, please bless me with 1/10000 of your intelligence. If I even had a fraction of your intelligence, I would be blessed and prepared to start on my Nobel Prize winning research. You are my lord and savior. I wish that you will answer my nightly prayers and endow me with the ability to stealthily embed insults in internet conversations.

It wasn't funny the first time, and making it twice as long the second time around still won't make it funny.

You're the one that first started criticizing Turkey and then attacked me for criticizing Slovenia. Looks like you're the unreasonable one for not being able to apply the same standards for yourself.

They're being denied rights. Plain and simple. Fears fueled by a racist political party, too. They are not illegal immigrants. I like how you're trying to sugar-coat it. Do you support the belief that they're not humans? Applying for citizenship in your own home just because you're of a different ethnicity than the majority is disgusting.

Slovenia is a horrible country. In the vote, 95% of the population decided that minorities are not people. This is a backwards society with serious human rights issues. They should not be allowed to spread their hate and 16th century attitude.

I'm not anti-European. I'm anti-xenophobia, racism, etc. I'm concerned about this growing problem in Europe. It's not going to lead to anything good, especially if you remember their history. I think that if they fix it, then they'll be a lot better off along with the immigrants. I think it's interesting that you label me as anti-European when I post about these issues. Is the head of the UN anti-European? I'm wondering since he's confronted European countries about these problems, too.

It's so easy for people to just dismiss me by claiming that I'm anti-European and pretend that what I state doesn't exist. It's interesting that I'm always attacked when I bring it up. Maybe because people support the oppression of people. If you think about it, I'm pro-European since fixing these things up will make Europe more competitive and better.

Basically, if I'm anti-European, then anyone that's critical of Bush is anti-American. Obviously that's not the case. Or are you so simple that it is?

So basicly what your saying is that not giving them citizenship is the same as saying their not humans? Not a single country in the world (probably) is giving citizenship to everybody that wants it, not the US, not Pakistan, not Finland or Bangladesh. Could I get a link of that Slovenia vote thing so I can decide for myself if what their doing is wrong.

No. It's much more involved than that. I wouldn't be criticizing them if it were that. People were stripped of their citizenship because of their ethnicity and had to "apply" for citizenship. A known racist political party spread fears, but to get 95% of the population to vote against it is amazing.

Voters in Slovenia overwhelmingly oppose restoring rights of 'Erased'
 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81
Originally posted by: CanOWorms


No. It's much more involved than that. I wouldn't be criticizing them if it were that. People were stripped of their citizenship because of their ethnicity and had to "apply" for citizenship. A known racist political party spread fears, but to get 95% of the population to vote against it is amazing.

Voters in Slovenia overwhelmingly oppose restoring rights of 'Erased'

Yes it is more involved, so one wonders why you didn't even try to give the complete picture.

Maybe you could have mentioned that this happened when Slovenia was created during a very turbulent time, in which they were very lucky not to get invaded/involved in a civil war. Perhaps you could have mentioned that created a new country based on ethnicity or religion is not a new concept (have you though about all the sh!t Israelis have done to make sure Israel stays jewish?). Or maybe mentioned that minorities did have the chance of becoming citizens, with most of them not doign anything about it, or not being intested in citizenship (like Russians in Lithuania who are going through the same thing). Or maybe mentioning how most people actually feel (much like Americans don't want to pay reparations to slave descendants, slovenes don't want to pay reparations).
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
Originally posted by: CanOWorms


No. It's much more involved than that. I wouldn't be criticizing them if it were that. People were stripped of their citizenship because of their ethnicity and had to "apply" for citizenship. A known racist political party spread fears, but to get 95% of the population to vote against it is amazing.

Voters in Slovenia overwhelmingly oppose restoring rights of 'Erased'

Yes it is more involved, so one wonders why you didn't even try to give the complete picture.

Maybe you could have mentioned that this happened when Slovenia was created during a very turbulent time, in which they were very lucky not to get invaded/involved in a civil war. Perhaps you could have mentioned that created a new country based on ethnicity or religion is not a new concept (have you though about all the sh!t Israelis have done to make sure Israel stays jewish?). Or maybe mentioned that minorities did have the chance of becoming citizens, with most of them not doign anything about it, or not being intested in citizenship (like Russians in Lithuania who are going through the same thing). Or maybe mentioning how most people actually feel (much like Americans don't want to pay reparations to slave descendants, slovenes don't want to pay reparations).

Just because other bad things happen in the world doesn't mean this is OK. Was it wrong to protest against apartheid because other bad things were happening in the world? No.

It's just pathetic that you're trying to defend it.
 

heartsurgeon

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2001
4,260
0
0
now that they're this big..he next step will be member states wanting to secede...you wait and see, when the smaller countries start to feel they're being manipulated by France, they're going to start complaining. i know, the French would never manipulate others.
 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
Originally posted by: CanOWorms


No. It's much more involved than that. I wouldn't be criticizing them if it were that. People were stripped of their citizenship because of their ethnicity and had to "apply" for citizenship. A known racist political party spread fears, but to get 95% of the population to vote against it is amazing.

Voters in Slovenia overwhelmingly oppose restoring rights of 'Erased'

Yes it is more involved, so one wonders why you didn't even try to give the complete picture.

Maybe you could have mentioned that this happened when Slovenia was created during a very turbulent time, in which they were very lucky not to get invaded/involved in a civil war. Perhaps you could have mentioned that created a new country based on ethnicity or religion is not a new concept (have you though about all the sh!t Israelis have done to make sure Israel stays jewish?). Or maybe mentioned that minorities did have the chance of becoming citizens, with most of them not doign anything about it, or not being intested in citizenship (like Russians in Lithuania who are going through the same thing). Or maybe mentioning how most people actually feel (much like Americans don't want to pay reparations to slave descendants, slovenes don't want to pay reparations).

Just because other bad things happen in the world doesn't mean this is OK. Was it wrong to protest against apartheid because other bad things were happening in the world? No.

It's just pathetic that you're trying to defend it.

Last year I used to get into huge arguments over the war in Iraq with a friend of mine. Even though we both agreed, I could not help but argue with him, for his views were very unreasonable.

So even as I agree with you that this action was wrong, I cannot agree with your unreasonable views and extrapolations.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
Originally posted by: CanOWorms


No. It's much more involved than that. I wouldn't be criticizing them if it were that. People were stripped of their citizenship because of their ethnicity and had to "apply" for citizenship. A known racist political party spread fears, but to get 95% of the population to vote against it is amazing.

Voters in Slovenia overwhelmingly oppose restoring rights of 'Erased'

Yes it is more involved, so one wonders why you didn't even try to give the complete picture.

Maybe you could have mentioned that this happened when Slovenia was created during a very turbulent time, in which they were very lucky not to get invaded/involved in a civil war. Perhaps you could have mentioned that created a new country based on ethnicity or religion is not a new concept (have you though about all the sh!t Israelis have done to make sure Israel stays jewish?). Or maybe mentioned that minorities did have the chance of becoming citizens, with most of them not doign anything about it, or not being intested in citizenship (like Russians in Lithuania who are going through the same thing). Or maybe mentioning how most people actually feel (much like Americans don't want to pay reparations to slave descendants, slovenes don't want to pay reparations).

Just because other bad things happen in the world doesn't mean this is OK. Was it wrong to protest against apartheid because other bad things were happening in the world? No.

It's just pathetic that you're trying to defend it.

Last year I used to get into huge arguments over the war in Iraq with a friend of mine. Even though we both agreed, I could not help but argue with him, for his views were very unreasonable.

So even as I agree with you that this action was wrong, I cannot agree with your unreasonable views and extrapolations.

That's fine. But I don't think wanting people to be equal in humanity is unreasonable.

Your signature is perfect for this thread, too.
 

Mardeth

Platinum Member
Jul 24, 2002
2,608
0
0
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
Originally posted by: CanOWorms


No. It's much more involved than that. I wouldn't be criticizing them if it were that. People were stripped of their citizenship because of their ethnicity and had to "apply" for citizenship. A known racist political party spread fears, but to get 95% of the population to vote against it is amazing.

Voters in Slovenia overwhelmingly oppose restoring rights of 'Erased'

Yes it is more involved, so one wonders why you didn't even try to give the complete picture.

Maybe you could have mentioned that this happened when Slovenia was created during a very turbulent time, in which they were very lucky not to get invaded/involved in a civil war. Perhaps you could have mentioned that created a new country based on ethnicity or religion is not a new concept (have you though about all the sh!t Israelis have done to make sure Israel stays jewish?). Or maybe mentioned that minorities did have the chance of becoming citizens, with most of them not doign anything about it, or not being intested in citizenship (like Russians in Lithuania who are going through the same thing). Or maybe mentioning how most people actually feel (much like Americans don't want to pay reparations to slave descendants, slovenes don't want to pay reparations).

Just because other bad things happen in the world doesn't mean this is OK. Was it wrong to protest against apartheid because other bad things were happening in the world? No.

It's just pathetic that you're trying to defend it.

Last year I used to get into huge arguments over the war in Iraq with a friend of mine. Even though we both agreed, I could not help but argue with him, for his views were very unreasonable.

So even as I agree with you that this action was wrong, I cannot agree with your unreasonable views and extrapolations.

That's fine. But I don't think wanting people to be equal in humanity is unreasonable.

Your signature is perfect for this thread, too.

Ok, I must admit its totally wrong but you have to also look at it from their point of view. Now first of all their uneducated mostly and so dont know any better, their also pretty "poor" and the threat of paying alot of money for a matter like this is bound to cause uproar. The matter cant be as bad as it sounds otherwise EU wouldnt have taken Slovenia as member...
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Originally posted by: Mardeth
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
Originally posted by: CanOWorms


No. It's much more involved than that. I wouldn't be criticizing them if it were that. People were stripped of their citizenship because of their ethnicity and had to "apply" for citizenship. A known racist political party spread fears, but to get 95% of the population to vote against it is amazing.

Voters in Slovenia overwhelmingly oppose restoring rights of 'Erased'

Yes it is more involved, so one wonders why you didn't even try to give the complete picture.

Maybe you could have mentioned that this happened when Slovenia was created during a very turbulent time, in which they were very lucky not to get invaded/involved in a civil war. Perhaps you could have mentioned that created a new country based on ethnicity or religion is not a new concept (have you though about all the sh!t Israelis have done to make sure Israel stays jewish?). Or maybe mentioned that minorities did have the chance of becoming citizens, with most of them not doign anything about it, or not being intested in citizenship (like Russians in Lithuania who are going through the same thing). Or maybe mentioning how most people actually feel (much like Americans don't want to pay reparations to slave descendants, slovenes don't want to pay reparations).

Just because other bad things happen in the world doesn't mean this is OK. Was it wrong to protest against apartheid because other bad things were happening in the world? No.

It's just pathetic that you're trying to defend it.

Last year I used to get into huge arguments over the war in Iraq with a friend of mine. Even though we both agreed, I could not help but argue with him, for his views were very unreasonable.

So even as I agree with you that this action was wrong, I cannot agree with your unreasonable views and extrapolations.

That's fine. But I don't think wanting people to be equal in humanity is unreasonable.

Your signature is perfect for this thread, too.

Ok, I must admit its totally wrong but you have to also look at it from their point of view. Now first of all their uneducated mostly and so dont know any better, their also pretty "poor" and the threat of paying alot of money for a matter like this is bound to cause uproar. The matter cant be as bad as it sounds otherwise EU wouldnt have taken Slovenia as member...

Slovenia isn't some third-world, poor, uneducated country. It has a 99.7% literacy rate. I think I read that the average income is 70% of the average EU income.

I'm sure that the majority doesn't actually believe that they are sub-humans, but how a racist political party managed to manipulate 95% of the population to vote in such a way, contradicting the recommendation of the courts, is disturbing.

In my opinion, this a serious human rights issue.
 

peonyu

Platinum Member
Mar 12, 2003
2,038
23
81
Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
This is truly a historic occasion, and I sincerely hope it works out, though I don't know if it will. One hand, the new members may invigorate the EU, with older members taking the best from the new members (2-3 of the 10 have low, flat taxes. A few more are working on this) leading to fast growth, both economically and socially, so that within 30-40 years, the entire continent would be a rich, developed, mature union. On the other, the vast differences between the countries may lead to strained relations, beaurocratic deadlock and perhaps even a breakdown of the Union. Most likely it will be a combination of both, though I hope much more of the former.


For those of you who turned this into a vacation, thread, I suggest you go visit the new members before they adopt the Euro (within 5 years perhaps). If you stay in Prague, you can save a ton of money, so you can spend more time there. Plus, Prague is close to both Germany and Vienna, so you can always hop on a bus and visit Berlin, Munic, Vienna, Strazboug etc for a day or two.

Just ask anyone who's been to Greece and they'll tell you how much nicer it was the drahma. ;)


Originally posted by: burnedout
Meanwhile, even though Turkey has held NATO membership for 52 years, the 'great' Jacques Chirac says that the Turks aren't fit for entry into the EU.

Nato membership doesn't qualify one for the EU. The EU is a "union of values". Torture, a plethora of human rights abuses and a backwards society are not among them.

Whether Turkey can begin ascention will be decided in December, however it must work very hard for a very long time and completely transform itself if it wants to be a part of that club.



Anyway, cheers to our european friends :beer: Hopefully everything wil work out for them.



In terms of religion, language, location, and culture Turkey has more in common with the Middle East than it does to the European nations, so hopefully they wont get EU membership. If Turkey ever gets EU citizenship then why not annex Iran and Iraq to since obviously the European Union isnt just for europe.
 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81
Originally posted by: peonyu
Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
This is truly a historic occasion, and I sincerely hope it works out, though I don't know if it will. One hand, the new members may invigorate the EU, with older members taking the best from the new members (2-3 of the 10 have low, flat taxes. A few more are working on this) leading to fast growth, both economically and socially, so that within 30-40 years, the entire continent would be a rich, developed, mature union. On the other, the vast differences between the countries may lead to strained relations, beaurocratic deadlock and perhaps even a breakdown of the Union. Most likely it will be a combination of both, though I hope much more of the former.


For those of you who turned this into a vacation, thread, I suggest you go visit the new members before they adopt the Euro (within 5 years perhaps). If you stay in Prague, you can save a ton of money, so you can spend more time there. Plus, Prague is close to both Germany and Vienna, so you can always hop on a bus and visit Berlin, Munic, Vienna, Strazboug etc for a day or two.

Just ask anyone who's been to Greece and they'll tell you how much nicer it was the drahma. ;)


Originally posted by: burnedout
Meanwhile, even though Turkey has held NATO membership for 52 years, the 'great' Jacques Chirac says that the Turks aren't fit for entry into the EU.

Nato membership doesn't qualify one for the EU. The EU is a "union of values". Torture, a plethora of human rights abuses and a backwards society are not among them.

Whether Turkey can begin ascention will be decided in December, however it must work very hard for a very long time and completely transform itself if it wants to be a part of that club.



Anyway, cheers to our european friends :beer: Hopefully everything wil work out for them.



In terms of religion, language, location, and culture Turkey has more in common with the Middle East than it does to the European nations, so hopefully they wont get EU membership. If Turkey ever gets EU citizenship then why not annex Iran and Iraq to since obviously the European Union isnt just for europe.

Well, no one's really saying that the EU is for european nations only.

here is an interesting article on the matter of EU expansion:

GROUCHO MARX famously remarked that he did not want to belong to any club that would have him as a member. The European Union faces the opposite problem. It is a club that does not appear to want anybody who applies for membership. One senior official comments that ?the countries that are most attractive to us as future members are small, rich ones like Norway and Switzerland.? Unfortunately the Swiss and Norwegians show no signs of wanting to join. All the would-be new members are poor or big, or both.
On May 1st the EU will formally admit ten new countries. Most of them are from central Europe, and all are poorer than the EU average. Then, 2007 is the target date for the EU to let in two more relatively poor countries: Bulgaria and Romania. That would mean an EU of 27, which would become 28 if Croatia manages, as it hopes, to slip in at around the same time. By the end of this year, the EU is due to decide whether formally to open membership negotiations with Turkey?a country that is not only poor and big, but also Muslim. The betting in Brussels is that, unless the Cyprus re-unification talks go badly awry, Turkey will secure its invitation to start negotiations. And that means that eventual Turkish membership will become almost inevitable?perhaps by around 2015.
By then, the four remaining western Balkan countries?Albania, Bosnia, Macedonia and Serbia?might also be joining the EU; Macedonia has already applied. And if Turkey gets in, is there any real argument for keeping out Ukraine, Moldova, Belarus or Georgia (whose new government has just announced that its long-term goal is to ?join Europe?)? Some people have talked of Russia joining the EU one day; others have mentioned Israel, a putative Palestinian state or even Morocco.
All this enthusiasm for Europe should be intensely flattering to the bureaucrats of Brussels. After all, it is the mark of a good club that people clamour to become members. An ever-larger EU might also bring big benefits. It would create a political unit with a huge population, furthering the Union's ambitions to be a global power. The EU is also effective at moulding the behaviour of would-be members. The hope is that by exporting European laws and values, it can expand a zone committed to prosperous and peaceful co-existence and the rule of law.
Yet in reality many of today's members view the prospect of an ever-expanding Union with a mixture of fatalism and dread. There are several reasons for this. The first, inevitably, is money. The EU redistributes billions of euros from rich to poor members: more poor members means more claimants on the purse. A second is immigration. One of the Union's fundamental principles is that there should be freedom to move from one member country to another. But anti-immigration parties are gaining ground across western Europe; they could make huge political capital out of potential Turkish membership.
Then there is the feeling that a larger EU might simply be unable to function. If you add in all the Balkan countries, Turkey and a further scattering from the former Soviet Union, you soon arrive at a European Union of almost 40 members. In a book published this week, Frits Bolkestein, the Dutch European commissioner, argues that ?the larger the group, the fewer decisions it can take.? To get any decisions in an EU as big as 40, remaining rights to national vetoes would surely have to go. On current population projections, moreover, Turkey could be the biggest member in 15-20 years' time. It would thus command the biggest block of votes, in a Union that is already responsible for as much as 50% of the new domestic law in its member countries.
Contra vox pop
Ordinary citizens in today's EU of 15 could come up with any number of plausible-sounding objections to Turkish or Ukrainian membership. They are not really European, they are too poor, they are too different. But all such objections have been defined away in Brussels. Turkey was accepted as at least a potential candidate as far back as the 1960s, on the basis that part of its land-mass is in Europe. As for Ukraine or even Russia, they surely fit the traditional geographic definition of a Europe that stretches from the Atlantic to the Urals.
Moreover, the European Union has consistently rejected the idea of insisting on a minimum level of income or wealth for EU members. Its only serious economic demand is that members should have a ?functioning market economy?.
The question of European values may be the most sensitive of all. Some people in today's EU may believe that the borders of Europe are those of traditional Christendom, but this position has never been formally endorsed by EU leaders. They are understandably wary of ethnic- or religion-based definitions of Europe. After all, today's Union already has millions of Muslim and black citizens. Two possible future members, Albania and Bosnia, are mainly Muslim by heritage. Instead the EU defines itself as a ?Union of values?. Any European country that embraces democracy and human rights is fit for membership.
Citing national interest or public opinion might seem a standard procedure in discussing a far-reaching foreign-policy decision in a nation-state. But it is regarded as barely respectable in the multinational European Union. The EU is comfortable talking about values, but uncomfortable talking about interests. And it has consistently been built over the heads of its citizens. Although all ten new members held referendums to approve their entry, voters in the 15 existing members were not consulted. Opinion polls in France show strong opposition to this enlargement. But when the French government tentatively floated the notion of holding a vote to approve it, this was swiftly denounced and quickly dropped. Whether such high-minded elitism will be enough to drive through the even more controversial enlargements to come must be open to question.

Basicly, if this round of expansion goes well, the EU's likely to grow to all of europe and beyond, provided countries are suitable.
 

Strk

Lifer
Nov 23, 2003
10,197
4
76
Originally posted by: peonyu
Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
This is truly a historic occasion, and I sincerely hope it works out, though I don't know if it will. One hand, the new members may invigorate the EU, with older members taking the best from the new members (2-3 of the 10 have low, flat taxes. A few more are working on this) leading to fast growth, both economically and socially, so that within 30-40 years, the entire continent would be a rich, developed, mature union. On the other, the vast differences between the countries may lead to strained relations, beaurocratic deadlock and perhaps even a breakdown of the Union. Most likely it will be a combination of both, though I hope much more of the former.


For those of you who turned this into a vacation, thread, I suggest you go visit the new members before they adopt the Euro (within 5 years perhaps). If you stay in Prague, you can save a ton of money, so you can spend more time there. Plus, Prague is close to both Germany and Vienna, so you can always hop on a bus and visit Berlin, Munic, Vienna, Strazboug etc for a day or two.

Just ask anyone who's been to Greece and they'll tell you how much nicer it was the drahma. ;)


Originally posted by: burnedout
Meanwhile, even though Turkey has held NATO membership for 52 years, the 'great' Jacques Chirac says that the Turks aren't fit for entry into the EU.

Nato membership doesn't qualify one for the EU. The EU is a "union of values". Torture, a plethora of human rights abuses and a backwards society are not among them.

Whether Turkey can begin ascention will be decided in December, however it must work very hard for a very long time and completely transform itself if it wants to be a part of that club.



Anyway, cheers to our european friends :beer: Hopefully everything wil work out for them.



In terms of religion, language, location, and culture Turkey has more in common with the Middle East than it does to the European nations, so hopefully they wont get EU membership. If Turkey ever gets EU citizenship then why not annex Iran and Iraq to since obviously the European Union isnt just for europe.

Turkey isn't an Arab nation and they don't speak Arabic, although they are mostly Sunnis.
 

Turkish

Lifer
May 26, 2003
15,547
1
81
Originally posted by: tnitsuj
Originally posted by: burnedout
Meanwhile, even though Turkey has held NATO membership for 52 years, the 'great' Jacques Chirac says that the Turks aren't fit for entry into the EU.

The Turks need to stop killing Kurds, routinely using torture in thier security services, and a whole host of other human rights issues before they can enter the EU.

you must be the most ignorant person I have ever seen.
 

Turkish

Lifer
May 26, 2003
15,547
1
81
Originally posted by: peonyu
Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
This is truly a historic occasion, and I sincerely hope it works out, though I don't know if it will. One hand, the new members may invigorate the EU, with older members taking the best from the new members (2-3 of the 10 have low, flat taxes. A few more are working on this) leading to fast growth, both economically and socially, so that within 30-40 years, the entire continent would be a rich, developed, mature union. On the other, the vast differences between the countries may lead to strained relations, beaurocratic deadlock and perhaps even a breakdown of the Union. Most likely it will be a combination of both, though I hope much more of the former.


For those of you who turned this into a vacation, thread, I suggest you go visit the new members before they adopt the Euro (within 5 years perhaps). If you stay in Prague, you can save a ton of money, so you can spend more time there. Plus, Prague is close to both Germany and Vienna, so you can always hop on a bus and visit Berlin, Munic, Vienna, Strazboug etc for a day or two.

Just ask anyone who's been to Greece and they'll tell you how much nicer it was the drahma. ;)


Originally posted by: burnedout
Meanwhile, even though Turkey has held NATO membership for 52 years, the 'great' Jacques Chirac says that the Turks aren't fit for entry into the EU.

Nato membership doesn't qualify one for the EU. The EU is a "union of values". Torture, a plethora of human rights abuses and a backwards society are not among them.

Whether Turkey can begin ascention will be decided in December, however it must work very hard for a very long time and completely transform itself if it wants to be a part of that club.



Anyway, cheers to our european friends :beer: Hopefully everything wil work out for them.



In terms of religion, language, location, and culture Turkey has more in common with the Middle East than it does to the European nations, so hopefully they wont get EU membership. If Turkey ever gets EU citizenship then why not annex Iran and Iraq to since obviously the European Union isnt just for europe.

Other than religion, Turkey has no common values with Middle East.
 
Aug 14, 2001
11,061
0
0
Originally posted by: Xiety
Originally posted by: tnitsuj
Originally posted by: burnedout
Meanwhile, even though Turkey has held NATO membership for 52 years, the 'great' Jacques Chirac says that the Turks aren't fit for entry into the EU.

The Turks need to stop killing Kurds, routinely using torture in thier security services, and a whole host of other human rights issues before they can enter the EU.

you must be the most ignorant person I have ever seen.

You must be of Turkish descent.
 

Sunner

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
11,641
0
76
Yahooo! Or not...
I still don't think the EU will work, and annexing every country in Europe won't change that, if anything, it will have the opposite effect IMO.

CanOWorms, don't know if you mean to or not, but to me, you sure keep sounding like you have a rather strong dislike for pretty much all Europeans.
 

DeeKnow

Platinum Member
Jan 28, 2002
2,470
0
71
Originally posted by: tnitsuj
Originally posted by: maddogchen
maybe the Euro will come tumbling down, so I can actually afford an European vacation


It really hurt to pay almost 80 US dollars for a tank of gas when I was there in the fall.

tell me about it .... it hurts every damn week!
 

Grakatt

Senior member
Feb 27, 2003
315
0
0
What happened to Cyprus, btw? I heard that schizophrenic island was having some problems with communication between its two sides, and that this somehow would prevent the Greek side, (or the island as a whole) to enter the EU? I have a scetchy view of the situation at best, but it would be interesting to know.

As for Turkey, I wonder if Turkish is as annoying to listen to as Persian? Seriously, it is on par with Icelandic when it comes to producing 'scchhchccch'-sounds, only they come from far down the throat.

Edit: As for gasoline prices, come to Sweden, pay 4.8 USD/gallon.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Originally posted by: Sunner
Yahooo! Or not...
I still don't think the EU will work, and annexing every country in Europe won't change that, if anything, it will have the opposite effect IMO.

CanOWorms, don't know if you mean to or not, but to me, you sure keep sounding like you have a rather strong dislike for pretty much all Europeans.

No, I'm not. If I did, why am I trying to reveal the poor treatment of certain groups of Europeans? Just because I'm very critical of their behavior regarding this issue doesn't mean you can just use that excuse. Like I posted previously, if I'm anti-European, then anyone criticizing Bush is anti-American. Obviously it's not that simple. This is a poor way to try to silence someone from revealing the truth.

How anyone can pretend this is not a serious human rights issue and claim that I'm anti-European is amazing. You should focus on the issue instead of the poster, unless you're trying to ignore the issue.
 

freegeeks

Diamond Member
May 7, 2001
5,460
1
81
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: Sunner
Yahooo! Or not...
I still don't think the EU will work, and annexing every country in Europe won't change that, if anything, it will have the opposite effect IMO.

CanOWorms, don't know if you mean to or not, but to me, you sure keep sounding like you have a rather strong dislike for pretty much all Europeans.

No, I'm not. If I did, why am I trying to reveal the poor treatment of certain groups of Europeans? Just because I'm very critical of their behavior regarding this issue doesn't mean you can just use that excuse. Like I posted previously, if I'm anti-European, then anyone criticizing Bush is anti-American. Obviously it's not that simple. This is a poor way to try to silence someone from revealing the truth.

How anyone can pretend this is not a serious human rights issue and claim that I'm anti-European is amazing. You should focus on the issue instead of the poster, unless you're trying to ignore the issue.

more and more people seem to think that you have some strange dislike for Europeans

interesting...
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Originally posted by: freegeeks
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: Sunner
Yahooo! Or not...
I still don't think the EU will work, and annexing every country in Europe won't change that, if anything, it will have the opposite effect IMO.

CanOWorms, don't know if you mean to or not, but to me, you sure keep sounding like you have a rather strong dislike for pretty much all Europeans.

No, I'm not. If I did, why am I trying to reveal the poor treatment of certain groups of Europeans? Just because I'm very critical of their behavior regarding this issue doesn't mean you can just use that excuse. Like I posted previously, if I'm anti-European, then anyone criticizing Bush is anti-American. Obviously it's not that simple. This is a poor way to try to silence someone from revealing the truth.

How anyone can pretend this is not a serious human rights issue and claim that I'm anti-European is amazing. You should focus on the issue instead of the poster, unless you're trying to ignore the issue.

more and more people seem to think that you have some strange dislike for Europeans

interesting...

Not really, he's said it to me before. I can see how people think it though since I'm very critical over their 17th century-like treatment of people.

It's interesting how people are avoiding the subject and attacking the poster... very interesting how they're avoiding it... especially a serious humans rights issue such as this...
 

freegeeks

Diamond Member
May 7, 2001
5,460
1
81
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: freegeeks
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: Sunner
Yahooo! Or not...
I still don't think the EU will work, and annexing every country in Europe won't change that, if anything, it will have the opposite effect IMO.

CanOWorms, don't know if you mean to or not, but to me, you sure keep sounding like you have a rather strong dislike for pretty much all Europeans.

No, I'm not. If I did, why am I trying to reveal the poor treatment of certain groups of Europeans? Just because I'm very critical of their behavior regarding this issue doesn't mean you can just use that excuse. Like I posted previously, if I'm anti-European, then anyone criticizing Bush is anti-American. Obviously it's not that simple. This is a poor way to try to silence someone from revealing the truth.

How anyone can pretend this is not a serious human rights issue and claim that I'm anti-European is amazing. You should focus on the issue instead of the poster, unless you're trying to ignore the issue.

more and more people seem to think that you have some strange dislike for Europeans

interesting...

Not really, he's said it to me before. I can see how people think it though since I'm very critical over their 17th century-like treatment of people.

It's interesting how people are avoiding the subject and attacking the poster... very interesting how they're avoiding it... especially a serious humans rights issue such as this...

I feel your pain

I just saw some pics about the treatment of these Iraqi prisoners. Looks like a 13th century treatment

oh - and we also eat babies