Essays.

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Feb 6, 2007
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Originally posted by: SagaLore
Originally posted by: So
Show me a persuasive, coherent argument that is based around bullet points and incomplete paragraphs.

Here you go:

http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=3508

Now tell me, is this an essay?

Yes, that is an essay. It is a short piece of non-fiction prose written in paragraph form with clearly defined topic sentences and explanatory paragraphs. In fact, I'm curious just how you could think that was an example of "bullet points and incomplete paragraphs," since there are literally zero bullet points and the whole piece is written in full sentences. I think you're simply using too narrow a definition of essay (as mentioned previously, you seem to focus solely on the academic essay as forced upon unsuspecting high school students). But this is an essay, no doubt about it.
 

So

Lifer
Jul 2, 2001
25,923
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81
Originally posted by: Dumac
Originally posted by: SagaLore
Originally posted by: So
Show me a persuasive, coherent argument that is based around bullet points and incomplete paragraphs.

Here you go:

http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=3508

Now tell me, is this an essay?

I would say it is, but even if it isn't, it contains many of the important factors of essay writing.

I don't get why you don't like essays. They aren't rigid at all. True writing is the most free academic process I know of.

Agreed, that's almost certainly an essay.
 

SagaLore

Elite Member
Dec 18, 2001
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Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy
Yes, that is an essay. It is a short piece of non-fiction prose written in paragraph form with clearly defined topic sentences and explanatory paragraphs. In fact, I'm curious just how you could think that was an example of "bullet points and incomplete paragraphs," since there are literally zero bullet points and the whole piece is written in full sentences. I think you're simply using too narrow a definition of essay (as mentioned previously, you seem to focus solely on the academic essay as forced upon unsuspecting high school students). But this is an essay, no doubt about it.

I have never heard anybody use the word essay outside of an academic function. What I just linked to was an article.
 

SagaLore

Elite Member
Dec 18, 2001
24,036
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Originally posted by: nerp
Shit, I just read a collection of essays by E. B. White. Wonderful book. They follow no conventional rules, often drift into tangents and can meander from reflections on his gardening and firewood to a funny conversation he had with a firefighter when a bird's nest clogged up his chimney and filled his house with smoke during his first fire in the fall.

Essays can be creative, entertaining and a joy to read. They just have to be crafted with care and passion, and, if you're lucky, a little talent and skill.

I think high school writing programs are shameful in the way they've beated the art of writing down into blanks on a page, like math equations.

Read more.

The thread was started because I just started a new degree and one of my first classes is Essay Writing. In all of high school and college, I have never had a teacher give creative and loose assignments with essays. So I am dreading this. I've had teachers engage us in creative writing, but they never called them essays.

I read nightly. :p
 

spacejamz

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
10,975
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what is the point of writing an essay? everyone has made up their mind and won't be persuaded no matter how well you write...if you don't believe, click on the p&n link on the left...
 

So

Lifer
Jul 2, 2001
25,923
17
81
Originally posted by: SagaLore
Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy
Yes, that is an essay. It is a short piece of non-fiction prose written in paragraph form with clearly defined topic sentences and explanatory paragraphs. In fact, I'm curious just how you could think that was an example of "bullet points and incomplete paragraphs," since there are literally zero bullet points and the whole piece is written in full sentences. I think you're simply using too narrow a definition of essay (as mentioned previously, you seem to focus solely on the academic essay as forced upon unsuspecting high school students). But this is an essay, no doubt about it.

I have never heard anybody use the word essay outside of an academic function. What I just linked to was an article.

That was ALSO an essay. If you're afraid of the word essay, pretend you're writing a structured "article"

It's not that difficult, really.
 
Feb 6, 2007
16,432
1
81
Originally posted by: SagaLore
Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy
Yes, that is an essay. It is a short piece of non-fiction prose written in paragraph form with clearly defined topic sentences and explanatory paragraphs. In fact, I'm curious just how you could think that was an example of "bullet points and incomplete paragraphs," since there are literally zero bullet points and the whole piece is written in full sentences. I think you're simply using too narrow a definition of essay (as mentioned previously, you seem to focus solely on the academic essay as forced upon unsuspecting high school students). But this is an essay, no doubt about it.

I have never heard anybody use the word essay outside of an academic function. What I just linked to was an article.

I understand where you're coming from; most people, when they use the generic "essay," are specifically referring to an academic essay. But the fact is that the term essay actually covers a broad spectrum of writing far beyond the simple academic essay that it is most commonly associated with.

From Wikipedia:

An essay is usually a short piece of writing. It is often written from an author's personal point of view. Essays can be literary criticism, political manifestos, learned arguments, observations of daily life, recollections, and reflections of the author.

The definition of an essay is vague, overlapping with those of an article and a short story.
Articles can overlap with essays, as can critical reviews, which the linked article would also fall under. True, the article you linked was a little long to be considered an "essay" in the sense of a short piece of prose, but short is a vague term to use as well. And the fact is that essay style writing, including using full sentences, topic sentences and paragraphs, were used throughout that article. It was not merely a collection of bullet points and graphs.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,800
6,356
126
Originally posted by: spacejamz
what is the point of writing an essay? everyone has made up their mind and won't be persuaded no matter how well you write...if you don't believe, click on the p&n link on the left...

Most people formed their Opinions based upon Essay material, in one form or another.
 

spacejamz

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
10,975
1,690
126
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: spacejamz
what is the point of writing an essay? everyone has made up their mind and won't be persuaded no matter how well you write...if you don't believe, click on the p&n link on the left...

Most people formed their Opinions based upon Essay material, in one form or another.

my point is that these 'persuasive' essays are persuading no one...most people have already made up their mind...so what is the point?
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
Learning the basic high-school version of essay writing prepares one to write non-technical research papers.

A research paper tends to be structured essentially like an exaggerated essay. Reason and thesis up front, body supporting thesis, and conclusion.

In research papers, that's the same format. It's also a loose format, reason for paper doesn't need to be first paragraph, same with thesis, but in essence, the structure is the same.

Any analytical career is going to use research papers. Businesses will use research documentation for the higher level business efforts. Rarely will a big presentation that deals with the same information ever be only a presentation. You'll have written documentation, or that written research paper will be a proposal to continue said efforts, with the presentation being the finale.

Sure, most people won't ever use it - but as was said earlier in the thread, it prepares the individual for analytical thinking, organization, and the flow of thoughts.

I fail to see how you cannot see any of these connections. Just because you may not be in a career track that makes use of these at the lower levels, most major business decisions, regardless if its related to marketing in any way, if it's a significant change to their normal efforts the business uses, will likely involve someone writing a research paper.
But in general, it'll less likely be a business thing, and rather an analytical position. Anybody that ends up in an analytical position anywhere will likely be dealing with this. The final proposal or research paper may not resemble an essay to the naked eye, but the process is all there. Propose an argument, back up the argument, and make a conclusion as to why your argument is absolutely correct as per the demands of the reason of the document.
 

Dumac

Diamond Member
Dec 31, 2005
9,391
1
0
Originally posted by: SagaLore
I have never heard anybody use the word essay outside of an academic function. What I just linked to was an article.

Articles are essays.

Originally posted by: SagaLore
The thread was started because I just started a new degree and one of my first classes is Essay Writing. In all of high school and college, I have never had a teacher give creative and loose assignments with essays. So I am dreading this. I've had teachers engage us in creative writing, but they never called them essays.

I read nightly. :p

I can see that being true for high school (which seems to almost always drill in the idea of the horrible five paragraph essay), but college? Either your college has a shitty writing program, or perhaps your teacher doesn't mind creativity as long as you still present a valid, well supported, and logical paper. Essays are the most free and loose assignments I've ever had.

There are unusual ways to go about doing such, and no good writing teacher would mind unorthodox writing as long as it is still effect.

Are you sure that creativity and looseness are the issue here, and not just your ability to write an effective paper?
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,873
31,385
146
Originally posted by: nerp
Shit, I just read a collection of essays by E. B. White. Wonderful book. They follow no conventional rules, often drift into tangents and can meander from reflections on his gardening and firewood to a funny conversation he had with a firefighter when a bird's nest clogged up his chimney and filled his house with smoke during his first fire in the fall.

Essays can be creative, entertaining and a joy to read. They just have to be crafted with care and passion, and, if you're lucky, a little talent and skill.

I think high school writing programs are shameful in the way they've beated the art of writing down into blanks on a page, like math equations.

Read more.

yep. the 5-paragraph format is ridiculously stupid. I think I abandoned it by the 11th grade or so. You can stick to a general framework of introduce your subject, history, reasoning, argument 1-x, support and detract, summarize, conclude, whatever...but to think it eneds to be done in 5 paragraphs is silly.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,873
31,385
146
Originally posted by: nerp


I think high school writing programs are shameful in the way they've beated the art of writing down into blanks on a page, like math equations.

Read more.

:eek:
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,873
31,385
146
Originally posted by: SagaLore
Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy
Yes, that is an essay. It is a short piece of non-fiction prose written in paragraph form with clearly defined topic sentences and explanatory paragraphs. In fact, I'm curious just how you could think that was an example of "bullet points and incomplete paragraphs," since there are literally zero bullet points and the whole piece is written in full sentences. I think you're simply using too narrow a definition of essay (as mentioned previously, you seem to focus solely on the academic essay as forced upon unsuspecting high school students). But this is an essay, no doubt about it.

I have never heard anybody use the word essay outside of an academic function. What I just linked to was an article.

:confused:
 

nerp

Diamond Member
Dec 31, 2005
9,865
105
106
Originally posted by: spacejamz
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: spacejamz
what is the point of writing an essay? everyone has made up their mind and won't be persuaded no matter how well you write...if you don't believe, click on the p&n link on the left...

Most people formed their Opinions based upon Essay material, in one form or another.

my point is that these 'persuasive' essays are persuading no one...most people have already made up their mind...so what is the point?

Not necessarily true. If anything, people strengthen and solidify their stances by reading essays.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,873
31,385
146
Originally posted by: SagaLore
Originally posted by: nerp
Shit, I just read a collection of essays by E. B. White. Wonderful book. They follow no conventional rules, often drift into tangents and can meander from reflections on his gardening and firewood to a funny conversation he had with a firefighter when a bird's nest clogged up his chimney and filled his house with smoke during his first fire in the fall.

Essays can be creative, entertaining and a joy to read. They just have to be crafted with care and passion, and, if you're lucky, a little talent and skill.

I think high school writing programs are shameful in the way they've beated the art of writing down into blanks on a page, like math equations.

Read more.

The thread was started because I just started a new degree and one of my first classes is Essay Writing. In all of high school and college, I have never had a teacher give creative and loose assignments with essays. So I am dreading this. I've had teachers engage us in creative writing, but they never called them essays.

I read nightly. :p

so you're afraid of the word, it seems; but not the idea?
 
Feb 6, 2007
16,432
1
81
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: spacejamz
what is the point of writing an essay? everyone has made up their mind and won't be persuaded no matter how well you write...if you don't believe, click on the p&n link on the left...

Most people formed their Opinions based upon Essay material, in one form or another.

Actually, in P&N it seems like most people form their opinions based around whatever shouting demagogue they prefer to watch on TV.
 

nerp

Diamond Member
Dec 31, 2005
9,865
105
106
Originally posted by: zinfamous
Originally posted by: nerp


I think high school writing programs are shameful in the way they've beated the art of writing down into blanks on a page, like math equations.

Read more.

:eek:

OMG hahah.

DOH!
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,800
6,356
126
Originally posted by: spacejamz
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: spacejamz
what is the point of writing an essay? everyone has made up their mind and won't be persuaded no matter how well you write...if you don't believe, click on the p&n link on the left...

Most people formed their Opinions based upon Essay material, in one form or another.

my point is that these 'persuasive' essays are persuading no one...most people have already made up their mind...so what is the point?

Uhh, my point is that they do. Everyone was persuaded to their opinion. No exceptions.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,873
31,385
146
Originally posted by: spacejamz
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: spacejamz
what is the point of writing an essay? everyone has made up their mind and won't be persuaded no matter how well you write...if you don't believe, click on the p&n link on the left...

Most people formed their Opinions based upon Essay material, in one form or another.

my point is that these 'persuasive' essays are persuading no one...most people have already made up their mind...so what is the point?

I've read a lot of well-crafted essays that completely changed my mind on certain subjects. Malcolm Gladwell is damn good at altering one's perspective on such things.

OP: Would you deny that an article published in, say...The New Yorker could be considered an essay?
 

Dumac

Diamond Member
Dec 31, 2005
9,391
1
0

Originally posted by: spacejamz
what is the point of writing an essay? everyone has made up their mind and won't be persuaded no matter how well you write...if you don't believe, click on the p&n link on the left...

Please tell me you are joking.

my point is that these 'persuasive' essays are persuading no one...most people have already made up their mind...so what is the point?

Persuasive essays don't need to be just above controversial issues like politics or religion. It is common to write a persuasive essay to someone in order to get them to fund your research or (less commonly) business. Why would they fund you if you can't even persuade them through writing that it is a good idea?

Back to politics and religion, have you seriously never read something and been convinced by it? Did you just pop out of the womb full of set opinions about the intricacies of the natural and social world?

Even with split controversial issues, there is usually an large ambivalent majority that needs to be persuaded by either side if they are to propagate their ideals.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,873
31,385
146
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: spacejamz
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: spacejamz
what is the point of writing an essay? everyone has made up their mind and won't be persuaded no matter how well you write...if you don't believe, click on the p&n link on the left...

Most people formed their Opinions based upon Essay material, in one form or another.

my point is that these 'persuasive' essays are persuading no one...most people have already made up their mind...so what is the point?

Uhh, my point is that they do. Everyone was persuaded to their opinion. No exceptions.

let me help you clarify: people were originally persuaded in their opinions, at some time or another, due to essay writing. This is how their opinions originate.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
Originally posted by: spacejamz
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: spacejamz
what is the point of writing an essay? everyone has made up their mind and won't be persuaded no matter how well you write...if you don't believe, click on the p&n link on the left...

Most people formed their Opinions based upon Essay material, in one form or another.

my point is that these 'persuasive' essays are persuading no one...so what is the point?

That's just like... you're opinion man.
And the wrong opinion at that. ;)

Persuasive arguments in written form most definitely persuade SOMEONE in the target audience.

Want to read a research paper I wrote on the TV show Lost in my television studies course? It'll persuade the audience, in the audience has basic knowledge of the material, isn't strongly biased against the proposed argument, and has an open mind.

While it can said most of humanity is closed-minded and resistant to persuasion, there are still many who can be persuaded given the attempt to persuade was actually sufficient. Not all persuasive arguments are the same. Many are founded in bias to begin with, so you can easily write off the entire written argument as bullshit because you see the bias.

And that is the whole point of teaching persuasive writing. Most are going to be terrible at it, and many are going to see right through the argument, while many others will just write it off as meaningless or if an important decision is to be made, ignore it as junk and determine it is not worth pursuing.
But a good author will be able to back up what one writes, and genuinely persuade the important individuals in a target audience.
Persuasive writing isn't meant to persuade even a fraction of the readership. It is meant to try and persuade the people who will further pursue the argument and take up the cause as well.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,800
6,356
126
Originally posted by: zinfamous
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: spacejamz
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: spacejamz
what is the point of writing an essay? everyone has made up their mind and won't be persuaded no matter how well you write...if you don't believe, click on the p&n link on the left...

Most people formed their Opinions based upon Essay material, in one form or another.

my point is that these 'persuasive' essays are persuading no one...most people have already made up their mind...so what is the point?

Uhh, my point is that they do. Everyone was persuaded to their opinion. No exceptions.

let me help you clarify: people were originally persuaded in their opinions, at some time or another, due to essay writing. This is how their opinions originate.

Yes, that works. :)
 
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